covid politics

[john12ax7]

The mRNA vaccine targeting the spike protein seems brilliant to me, but I am not a vaccine expert, so what would I know?

I'm not an expert either. But one of the inventors of mRNA technology is. And he's the one issuing the spike protein warning. So it seems rather reasonable for people to want more transparency and rigorous collection and reporting of data.

 

[Script]

one of the inventors of mRNA technology

Who is that ? I read some time ago the inventor of the technology was a female scientist from Hungary ? I might be wrong.

 

[john12ax7]

Who is that ? I read some time ago the inventor of the technology was a female scientist from Hungary ? I might be wrong.

Dr. Robert Malone

 

[Script]

Thanks. Meanwhile found him too. Fundamental research some 30 years ago. Not much in the field from him after that. The patents belong(ed) to the institute he worked for, but were never pursued. Yes, I guess he deserves mention.

And so probably do Peter Liljestom (experimenting on mice), Hoerr , Sahin and many many many others. Most credited right now seems to be Katalin Kariko. Anyway, it's too many for a Nobel... and as we know, Nobels don't mean much anymore anyway.

 

[Tubetec]

The lab leak theory isnt being ruled out at this stage and it casts a shaddow on the of branch scientific research that says we should even be meddling with viruses in this way to begin with .
The information to allow me make an informed decision simply isnt there yet , maybe it never will be .

Ive heard about the idea of vaccinated people 'Shedding' from a few online friends stateside , in any case surely people who were infected with covid itself shed to some extent and that plays a part in establishing herd immunity or maybe thats the wrong description , maybe its a point where we and the virus simply co-exist , could that be what big pharma is really fighting against while waving a false flag in our face ?

The vets here previously prescribed my dogs Ivermectin , the advice was get it once a month , isolate the dog for two weeks so you dont contaminate yourself or your children , the other thing was the vetrinary council itself issued guidelines on the administraion of Ivermectin saying basically allow the customer to administer the medication themselves because repeated exposure by people in vetrinary practice is suspected to have had health implications.
As far as the effects of the substance itself on my animals , they were left nausiated and out of sorts for days after administration , I suspect one of my dogs even now carries neurological damage after getting dose internally in the course of normal doggy play where they bite each other on the back of the neck , the site where the dose is administered . I have an angry as hell letter prepared , in the drafts box so to speak , destined for the VCI (veternary council of Ireland) looking for an explanation of their policy on Ivermectin but to be honest I've simply lost faith that I'll get anything other than obfuscation and chicanery in their reply , so abandoned the idea.
I did a fair amount of internet research into the effects people saw in their animals after being administered ivermectin , the top search results were pages and pages of sponsored content , by guess who , the people that make the shit , its was only after considderable digging I found , what to me was credible and honest accounts of the effects of this substance on peoples animals .

The effects of enforced physical and social isolation related to this virus will at some point (maybe already)outweigh the benefits , can we ever rely on the M.I.C. (aka Pharma) to call time ? You think the shareholders will shoot the golden goose , my arse they will .
Anyway as usual from me running at a slight tangent to the main topic ,
keep safe and well ,

 

[JohnRoberts]

The lab leak theory isnt being ruled out at this stage and it casts a shaddow on the of branch scientific research that says we should even be meddling with viruses in this way to begin with .

"Gain of function" research was prohibited during President Obama's administration and reportedly money was channeled to Wuhan lab through a third party. This research has scientific value, but is obviously dangerous.

The information to allow me make an informed decision simply isnt there yet , maybe it never will be .

Following the science is different from following scientific opinions.

Ive heard about the idea of vaccinated people 'Shedding' from a few online friends stateside , in any case surely people who were infected with covid itself shed to some extent and that plays a part in establishing herd immunity or maybe thats the wrong description , maybe its a point where we and the virus simply co-exist , could that be what big pharma is really fighting against while waving a false flag in our face ?

The argument is that these synthesized spike proteins are dangerous. They are dangerous to covid virus apparently due to antibody response to them. This needs study but we have millions of us in the middle of this grand experiment.

keep safe and well ,

JR

 

[JohnRoberts]

Thanks. Meanwhile found him too. Fundamental research some 30 years ago. Not much in the field from him after that. The patents belong(ed) to the institute he worked for, but were never pursued. Yes, I guess he deserves mention.

And so probably do Peter Liljestom (experimenting on mice), Hoerr , Sahin and many many many others. Most credited right now seems to be Katalin Kariko. Anyway, it's too many for a Nobel... and as we know, Nobels don't mean much anymore anyway.

They all deserve to express informed opinions but science is about objective data....

The mRNA virus vaccine still appears very clever, until it isn't.

Good luck to us all, the vaccines don't need any more shade cast on them

JR

 

[iturnknobs]

This is from the link I have attached. Are you saying you have proof of Fauci doing so? Seems to be echoing of conspiracy theories to me. I watch Tucker Carlson also... I just don't repeat what he says.

[Fauci responded that “the NIH has not ever and does not now fund gain-of-function research in the Wuhan Institute of Virology.”]

https://www.factcheck.org/2021/05/the-wuhan-lab-and-the-gain-of-function-disagreement/
edit: it would appear the original poster removed their conspiracy theory post. I'll leave mine.

edit 2: here's the original quote

Gdiy member: Fauci got gain of function reinstated under the cover of the previous administration. The lab leak theory isn't proven, but seems a lot of coincidences, gain of function reinstated, money flows to Wuhan lab, new mysterious virus comes from Wuhan.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Judicial watch's request under freedom of information act revealed multiple grants from NIAID to ECO Health Alliance. Do not expect to find purchase orders for gain of function research (prohibited by President Obama), these guys are smarter than that but only slightly. The research was likely called something else with a wink and a nod.

There are a bunch of Dr Fauci's emails recently made public that make interesting reading (especially to Senator Paul who questioned him in a contentious congressional hearing before the email dump).

I suspect both the Chinese government and the US government don't want the whole truth getting out albeit for different reasons. It makes me sick to think Taxpayer dollars may have been involved, and angry. I can imagine scientists having interest in gain of function research but this was very dangerous stuff.

JR

Caveat: AFAIK Dr Fauci is still denying, and/or not remembering, or was lied to by the Chinese.

 

[john12ax7]

"On Dec 19, 2017, the US National Institutes of Health (NIH) announced that they would resume funding gain-of-function experiments involving influenza, Middle East respiratory syndrome coronavirus, and severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus."

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(18)30006-9/fulltext

 

[iturnknobs]

I'm going to cover a few responses. It looks like Scott2000 has shown it could have come from bats(I think he was just making the "other argument"). John12ax7 and JR are failing to notice that Fauci clearly said that gain of function was never funded IN WUHAN. It doesn't seem to me as if he is lying or forgetting. Therefore, if gain of function funding to NIH was directly or indirectly responsible for Covid-19, it would have originated in our country, not China. Lastly, those on the right are looking to blame someone while thumbing their nose at the most serious pandemic in 100 years because of BAD, not mixed messaging directly from their elected leaders. As I said before, within reason, it doesn't matter where it came from. Especially right now. How we handle the pandemic does. Those on the right need to stop being "tough guys" that believe in and worship the "evil guy" in pro wrestling. Mumps, measles, polio, smallpox, etc didn't disappear because of tough guys or because they found someone to blame. If time was spent trying to get acquaintances vaccinated instead of worrying about fighting over this virus and people's "beliefs" about it, like the virus, this thread might fizzle out....

 

[iturnknobs]

The lab leak theory isnt being ruled out at this stage and it casts a shaddow on the of branch scientific research that says we should even be meddling with viruses in this way to begin with .
The information to allow me make an informed decision simply isnt there yet , maybe it never will be .

Ive heard about the idea of vaccinated people 'Shedding' from a few online friends stateside , in any case surely people who were infected with covid itself shed to some extent and that plays a part in establishing herd immunity or maybe thats the wrong description , maybe its a point where we and the virus simply co-exist , could that be what big pharma is really fighting against while waving a false flag in our face ?

The vets here previously prescribed my dogs Ivermectin , the advice was get it once a month , isolate the dog for two weeks so you dont contaminate yourself or your children , the other thing was the vetrinary council itself issued guidelines on the administraion of Ivermectin saying basically allow the customer to administer the medication themselves because repeated exposure by people in vetrinary practice is suspected to have had health implications.
As far as the effects of the substance itself on my animals , they were left nausiated and out of sorts for days after administration , I suspect one of my dogs even now carries neurological damage after getting dose internally in the course of normal doggy play where they bite each other on the back of the neck , the site where the dose is administered . I have an angry as hell letter prepared , in the drafts box so to speak , destined for the VCI (veternary council of Ireland) looking for an explanation of their policy on Ivermectin but to be honest I've simply lost faith that I'll get anything other than obfuscation and chicanery in their reply , so abandoned the idea.
I did a fair amount of internet research into the effects people saw in their animals after being administered ivermectin , the top search results were pages and pages of sponsored content , by guess who , the people that make the shit , its was only after considderable digging I found , what to me was credible and honest accounts of the effects of this substance on peoples animals .

The effects of enforced physical and social isolation related to this virus will at some point (maybe already)outweigh the benefits , can we ever rely on the M.I.C. (aka Pharma) to call time ? You think the shareholders will shoot the golden goose , my arse they will .
Anyway as usual from me running at a slight tangent to the main topic ,
keep safe and well ,

Off topic a bit... if you need to treat your dogs again for parasitic afflictions, Ivermectin can be applied topically. The brand name is Eprinex. Maybe your animals will fare better. I apply it on my pet geese which were procured during the covid quarantine.

This is also why I have been following the Ivermectin/Covid issues since they popped up, and once again, it seems like a hopeful "hail mary" therapeutic to avoid and deny conventional treatments...why people, WHY?

edit: the local farm supply store had to put warnings on the shelves to keep the hillbilly Trumpers who already imbibed disinfectants from self-adminstering Ivermectin because they refused to listen to public health recommendations... you can't make this sh*t up. 'Murica.

 

[JohnRoberts]

I'm going to cover a few responses. It looks like Scott2000 has shown it could have come from bats(I think he was just making the "other argument").

There has been a number of research papers published saying different things. Some have even been suspiciously disappeared. China has been trying to point blame anywhere else other than the Wuhan lad, who were coincidentally doing research on bat virus.

John12ax7 and JR are failing to notice that Fauci clearly said that gain of function was never funded IN WUHAN.

Which is why some people are accusing him of perjury for such conflicted testimony.

It doesn't seem to me as if he is lying or forgetting.

Of course

Therefore, if gain of function funding to NIH was directly or indirectly responsible for Covid-19, it would have originated in our country, not China.

Huh? The prospective money trail is grants from NCAID to ECO Health Alliance, and from them to Wuhan Virology lab,,, no NIH fingerprints to find, but Dr Fauci leads NCAID and his emails reveal a lot of communication between the three organizations.

Occam's razor suggests the obvious disease vector is accidental escape from the lab in Wuhan where such viruses were being researched.
===
New forensic investigations into identifying first cases are testing old blood samples and skin samples. It appears that the earliest cases are before the world thought it originated, but this investigation is not easy as historical samples are not complete.

Lastly, those on the right are looking to blame someone while thumbing their nose at the most serious pandemic in 100 years because of BAD, not mixed messaging directly from their elected leaders. As I said before, within reason, it doesn't matter where it came from.

I disagree,,, while we still have work to do getting the third world vaccinated. The cheap Chinese vaccines popular in the the third world are flirting with less than 50% efficacy against delta variant. They are talking about a third Chinese booster because first two are marginal.

If we want to prevent this happening again understanding where it came from is hugely important (IMO).

We also need to lock in the lessons learned about domestic sources for PPE, ventilators, and the like.

Especially right now. How we handle the pandemic does. Those on the right need to stop being "tough guys" that believe in and worship the "evil guy" in pro wrestling. Mumps, measles, polio, smallpox, etc didn't disappear because of tough guys or because they found someone to blame. If time was spent trying to get acquaintances vaccinated instead of worrying about fighting over this virus and people's "beliefs" about it, like the virus, this thread might fizzle out....

Sorry that last rant (almost) leaves me speechless...

This discussion will not die out as long as people keep trying to spin it as partisan. This is the covid politics thread so you are right on topic.

JR

 

[john12ax7]

As I said before, within reason, it doesn't matter where it came from.

Many, including scientists, would disagree with you.

From your own factheck link:
“Knowing how COVID-19 emerged is critical for informing global strategies to mitigate the risk of future outbreaks.”

I find it bizarre that Fauci is placed on such a pedestal. He bends the truth to fit a narrative. He lied about masks in the beginning, how many deaths might have been prevented with that? He was adamant the origin was natural in the beginning, now he's backtracking that. His gain of function responses are very lawyer-ish and sometimes contradictory. He might be doing things in a way that he geniunely feels is best, but why would anyone take what he says as 100% truth given the history? Yes the previous admistration did a terrible job with the pandemic, and Fauci was seen as the opposition voice. But just because one side is terrble doesn't mean the other is good.

 

[iturnknobs]

Many, including scientists, would disagree with you.

I ASSumed my real meaning was understood. None of us are scientists in the field of pathology. I fully realize the reason for finding the origins of this disease. I care so that science can be advanced. Those on the right want someone to blame and be punished with malicious intent. The fact that "we" are willing to put more time into this argument(placing blame) than convincing others to get vaccinated(which I do daily), directly proves that "we" are the problem, not the solution.

 

[hodad]

A comment I saw elsewhere on the internet called conspiracy theories "self-healing," and I think there's merit to that. In COVID world, you go from Hoax and Plandemic through HCQ and G5 and Magnetics and ivermectin and nanobots and sterility and zombies. And suspicion and fear seem to be a bigger prerequisite to belief than actual evidence.

Now, as far as the source of the virus, it's unfortunate (but not out of character) that China hasn't been more transparent. But even if there were convincing evidence of the source of the virus, I don't think that'd stop the conspiracy theories, and I don't think it'd stop people from believing them.

And who knows, maybe one of the seemingly nutty theories will turn out to be correct. But finding the truth doesn't really seem to be the point for folks who jump so willingly from theory to theory with little regard for the fact that most are unsupported or even contradicted by solid empirical evidence, and many are incontrovertibly ridiculous and utterly false BS.

 

[john12ax7]

None of us are scientists in the field of pathology.

Maybe not, but many are other forms of scientist, with the associated critical reasoning skills to evaluate data. Why do you assume those questioning things are exclusively on the right?

And you never really answered the question. Why is Fauci still viewed by many as this infallible authority figure? Why assume everything he says is fact when he has already showed the propensity to manipulate the truth? That goes against all the established norms for rules of evidence.

 

[iturnknobs]

Maybe not, but many are other forms of scientist, with the associated critical reasoning skills to evaluate data. Why do you assume those questioning things are exclusively on the right?

And you never really answered the question. Why is Fauci still viewed by many as this infallible authority figure? Why assume everything he says is fact when he has already showed the propensity to manipulate the truth? That goes against all the established norms for rules of evidence.

From my viewpoint, this whole thing has been a moving target. Humans do not pay attention to history, and repeat their mistakes. Society was equally opposed over the same issues as we are today, but now science can help us resolve these issues if tribalism and the "blame game" are set aside. Our knowledge of viruses during the 1918 pandemic was virtually none compared to today. Those on the right use every backtrack(which scientists do as info comes in) to crucify the man. Fauci absolutely is not infallible but those on the right expect him to be avnd automatically swing to wild conspiracy theories when he makes a mistake or updates/changes info. It's not manipulation of the truth. It's updating info for the public as it comes in. I'm not always assuming someone is trying to pull a fast one on me. I will not "be very afraid".

edit: I do believe that we were misinformed about masks initially. I believe it was a "white lie" that saved many health-care providers and their family members. I believe it helped those directly exposed from spreading it less until PPE was available again. I know that it prevented a rush of people from cleaning out the limited supply that was needed much more by a few than by all at that point in the pandemic.

 

[hodad]

And you never really answered the question. Why is Fauci still viewed by many as this infallible authority figure?

So is the logic here, "Anthony Fauci is fallible; therefore, ivermectin is a COVID cure being suppressed by a Big Pharma conspiracy"?

 

[JohnRoberts]

Luckily none of our forum members are from "the right" or forum rules would force us to be less disrespectful.

JR