Donald trump. what is your take on him?

[Matador]

Trump, being the previously described 'wealthy fringe whacko', doesn't have a lot of personal capital to spend on proclaiming what is in bad taste: one (of many) cases in point:

However even despite this, there are real people in real positions of power who are doing real damage, far surpassing what a few jello-heads-in-pictures or writing some tasteless song lyrics could ever do.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Trump, being the previously described 'wealthy fringe whacko', doesn't have a lot of personal capital to spend on proclaiming what is in bad taste: one (of many) cases in point:

However even despite this, there are real people in real positions of power who are doing real damage, far surpassing what a few jello-heads-in-pictures or writing some tasteless song lyrics could ever do.

Sounds like you might have a case of "cat scratch fever"....?

JR

PS: After a few more terror attacks my sense is this may be more evidence of the physical caliphate in syria/iraq losing ground, so they are calling out for more spontaneous low tech attacks to appear stronger than they are. We need to be careful that the ISIS movement does not metastasize to a web only terror organization that may be harder to squash. I am optimistic about the recent fatwa declared by muslim clerics in Pakistan against islamic radical violence, but this is all but ignored by the western press caught up in their Trump derangement syndrome.  The fatwa should be the headline, and encouraged by the west. I've long said the solution should come from within. 

PPS: Ariana Grande did the right thing, while hugs and kisses will not beat ISIS, fear and cowering only helps their cause. Looks like some of the Bobbies are armed these days (a necessary adjustment).

 

[DaveP]

I think the mood is changing in the UK.

Something is afoot and I'm not sure what form it may take yet.  I think everybody is now in agreement that the Muslim community need to do more to keep there own house in order and not keep their suspicions to themselves for fear of shame.  The greater shame of exposure after what their misguided sons are doing may be the overriding factor here.

To me it makes little sense to be trying to keep tabs on thousands of suspects by the intelligence agencies, might just as well intern them in a camp and let the watchtowers do the job.  The situation is much the same as the Japs in the US after Pearl Harbour at present.

But how the libertarians will howl, still they might feel differently if some of them got sliced.

DaveP

 

[Matador]

To me it makes little sense to be trying to keep tabs on thousands of suspects by the intelligence agencies, might just as well intern them in a camp and let the watchtowers do the job.  The situation is much the same as the Japs in the US after Pearl Harbour at present.

But how the libertarians will howl, still they might feel differently if some of them got sliced.

DaveP

I understand we live in a world where nothing can be taken at face value, so: please tell me that was sarcastic?

 

[DaveP]

I understand we live in a world where nothing can be taken at face value, so: please tell me that was sarcastic?

No, I think they are discussing it as one option.

It happened in the UK before with the IRA and the Unionist terrorists back in the 70's.

But don't worry, probably about a hundred more tourists would have to be killed before that happened.

DaveP

 

[DaveP]

Matador,

I understand your shock, but there is a fundamental difference between the Muslims in the US and those in the UK.

As far as I can see, the US Muslims came to America to be US citizens and to integrate into society.

In the UK they have Ghettoized themselves and live in their own areas by choice, in many cases still controlled by tribal leaders back in Pakistan or Bangla Desh.  The young sons of these migrants are alienated from UK society in a way that their parents never were.  Prime Minister May has said that this must come to an end.

The multicultural experiment has produced a harvest of hate for free societies.

DaveP

 

[sahib]

.........................
  I think everybody is now in agreement that the Muslim community need to do more to keep there own house in order and not keep their suspicions to themselves for fear of shame.  The greater shame of exposure after what their misguided sons are doing may be the overriding factor here.
......................

Dave,

I invite you to refrain from these clichés and open your eyes a bit more.

Muslim community in the UK is doing anything it can but unfortunately it is not making it to the front page, because it does not sell. But banging on the cliché saying that it does not do enough unfortunately does sell.

These guys have been reported to the police by the Muslim community and the MI5 have just confirmed that they did not see them as direct threat. Oooops!

The Manchester bomber was known to have had been to Libya and allowed back in the UK. The reason that he was allowed back in because the then home office secretary Theresa May relaxed a few key security measures that would have enabled the officials to put that guy on the plane back to where he came from.

This big cock up is a result of the long negligence and arrogance of past and present UK governments and their foreign policy. This did not start yesterday. Back in around 2000 I was told by a very high ranking Turkish diplomat that they were desperately trying to warn the then labour government (which Jack Straw was the home secretary) that their immigration policy was undermining UK security because they were letting anybody turning up at the borders, seeking asylum, but they were poo-poed.

So, please let's not dump this all on Muslim community's doorstep.

 

[DaveP]

So, please let's not dump this all on Muslim community's doorstep.

I agree with all you have said Sahib and I blame the previous labour government for this mess, just as you do.

You have Turkish origins I believe, and Turks have never been involved in UK terrorism to my knowledge.

Yes, suspects have been reported to MI5 and no action taken because they don't have the manpower to watch 5000 or 20,000 suspects (no clear numbers here).  So they may well have to intern the worst of the bunch to cope.

I believe that Theresa May's earlier efforts were blocked by civil liberties concerns.  This is going to be the debate that will be revisited.

DaveP

 

[sahib]

Matador,

I understand your shock, but there is a fundamental difference between the Muslims in the US and those in the UK.

As far as I can see, the US Muslims came to America to be US citizens and to integrate into society.

In the UK they have Ghettoized themselves and live in their own areas by choice, in many cases still controlled by tribal leaders back in Pakistan or Bangla Desh.  The young sons of these migrants are alienated from UK society in a way that their parents never were.  Prime Minister May has said that this must come to an end.

DaveP

With all due respect Dave, you are making utterly unqualified comments here.

Chinese, Sikh or Black communities have also Ghettoized. So, are you saying that theirs were not due to their own choice but the muslim comminty's was?

Please.

Let me show you the latest ghetto made up of Eastern European community in Glasgow where they throw their rubbish out of their windows, hang around the corners in gangs and essentially making indigenous intimidated. Do I blame them? Of course not. I blame Europe's immigration policy which UK is (still) part of.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Dave,

I invite you to refrain from these clichés and open your eyes a bit more.

Muslim community in the UK is doing anything it can but unfortunately it is not making it to the front page, because it does not sell. But banging on the cliché saying that it does not do enough unfortunately does sell.

ISIS has killed more muslims than non-muslims so we have common interest in stopping the violence from the radical element.

These guys have been reported to the police by the Muslim community and the MI5 have just confirmed that they did not see them as direct threat. Oooops!

I heard a number like 23,000 on some watch list that they clearly can't watch all of them.

The Manchester bomber was known to have had been to Libya and allowed back in the UK. The reason that he was allowed back in because the then home office secretary Theresa May relaxed a few key security measures that would have enabled the officials to put that guy on the plane back to where he came from.

yes and yes, but this is reducto absurdium we can't surveil every possible suspect, 24x7... We need to break the cycle, address the root cause of disaffected youth being drawn into terror.

This big cock up is a result of the long negligence and arrogance of past and present UK governments and their foreign policy. This did not start yesterday. Back in around 2000 I was told by a very high ranking Turkish diplomat that they were desperately trying to warn the then labour government (which Jack Straw was the home secretary) that their immigration policy was undermining UK security because they were letting anybody turning up at the borders, seeking asylum, but they were poo-poed.

So, please let's not dump this all on Muslim community's doorstep.

yes, the immigration policy seems a little problematic in hindsight, but as usual it is more complicated than that. The western nations with less than sustainable reproductive replacement rates need net new migration to keep the economy growing.... BUT ideally they need to become UK citizens that embrace the UK culture and not foreigners in isolated communities that only happen to live in the UK. .

A powerful first step is getting (muslim) religious leaders to reject the toxic ideology as haram. A recent event in Pakistan should be getting far more media attention than it has. http://pakistan.asia-news.com/en_GB/articles/cnmi_pf/features/2017/05/30/feature-02

These religious scholars have put their own lives at risk for the good of all by issuing this 22 point fatwa declaring terrorism as strictly forbidden. In Pakistan legislators have been assassinated for less, like declining to incorporate shariah into secular laws. I suspect these men of faith have big targets on their backs. One well known scholar who issued a similar fatwa in the past was assassinated in 2007, so it is not as simple as just saying so. The community needs to actively support these religious scholars.

I am not muslim so don't pretend to know how to get more to embrace this, but we need to stop the teaching of hate, and make the terror path seem less desirable (like no longer cool).  I know this is easier to say than do, but we can't kill all the cockroaches, we need to stop making more.

JR

 

[DaveP]

Chinese, Sikh or Black communities have also Ghettoized. So, are you saying that theirs were not due to their own choice but the muslim comminty's was?

Unfortunately, the Chinese, Sikh, Black and Turkish communities are much more integrated into UK society than those from Pakistan and Bangladesh.

I understand that language barriers and housing difficulties tend to make Ghettos likely, but there have been many attempts at bringing Sharia Law into Asian Muslim communities which is evidence of lack of integration in itself, otherwise they would be content with the law of the country they moved to.

Before you come down too hard on my comments, imagine what would happen if some Christian communities in Pakistan or  Iran or any Arab nation started driving trucks into Muslims and stabbing them, how long would that community exist?  We are just talking it out on this forum.

DaveP

 

[sahib]

Unfortunately, the .... and Turkish communities are much more integrated into UK

Let's call it fortunately  ;D

As I am one.

Before you come down too hard on my comments, imagine what would happen if some Christian communities in Pakistan or  Iran or any Arab nation started driving trucks into Muslims and stabbing them, how long would that community exist?  We are just talking it out on this forum.

DaveP

I did not mean to. But even if I did because I am fond of you  8)

However, this is something that I hit back a lot at the" muslim" community. The Christian communities do not have to do that. They are unfortunately already feeling alienated in their own land.  Not by the mainstream muslims, but by the rising extremism. Also don't forget about the nationalistic element which is strangely jumbled-up with the religious identity.

As I mentioned in one of the threads before we just have to study the reason behind the rise of the islamic extremism when these guys used to be the harmless, utopic underdog back in '70s. And it will not be difficult to figure out that it is a direct result of the vacuum that was/is created in the middle east.


@ John,

I completely understand that we can't man every single person but that was not really the essence of what I was trying to say.

 

[Phrazemaster]

This must have been what happened........................
The evil Trump subliminally sent her the idea of using a severed head, she thought what a great idea, but then she was caught in his trap, because her employers and thousands of people thought it in very poor taste and she was fired.

So she was able to say "Trump broke me"

The only other explanation is that she screwed up?  Could that be possible?  If that was the case then she would have to take responsibility for her own actions, could that ever happen?  It might start a trend.

DaveP

I guess people would feel differently if it were actually funny.

 

[DaveP]

I did not mean to. But even if I did because I am fond of you  8)

We are all fond of you here on this forum............you are our favourite Muslim ;D

DaveP

 

[ramshackles]

Something is afoot and I'm not sure what form it may take yet.  I think everybody is now in agreement that the Muslim community need to do more to keep there own house in order and not keep their suspicions to themselves for fear of shame.  The greater shame of exposure after what their misguided sons are doing may be the overriding factor here.

DaveP

Thats very narrow-minded and straight up wrong. Both the Manchester attacker and at least one of the London attackers had been reported to police on more than one occasion by neighbours and/or fellow Muslims who were suspicious of their activity.

(I got that info from BBC reports, but a quick check shows all major newspapers reporting the same).

 

[ramshackles]

PPS: Ariana Grande did the right thing, while hugs and kisses will not beat ISIS, fear and cowering only helps their cause. Looks like some of the Bobbies are armed these days (a necessary adjustment).

Police forces in the UK have had firearms units since well before I was born...

 

[DaveP]

Thats very narrow-minded and straight up wrong. Both the Manchester attacker and at least one of the London attackers had been reported to police on more than one occasion by neighbours and/or fellow Muslims who were suspicious of their activity.

In this particular case you are right, some were reported, but I'm talking about much more parental control, a Muslim internet presence naming and shaming these individuals online and Muslims making a much more vocal protest about wicked men like Choudary, who is the villain behind the latest group of terrorists.  Good Muslims have been intimidated by these creeps for far too long.  It's not enough just to report these people and leave it for the overstretched intelligence services to deal with.  The source of the problem originates in their culture, not yours or mine, they need to own it and deal with it.

DaveP

 

[micaddict]

JohnRoberst wrote:

We need to break the cycle, address the root cause of disaffected youth being drawn into terror.

DaveP wrote:

The source of the problem originates in their culture, not yours or mine, they need to own it and deal with it.

I see keywords like root and source. The problem, or at least a big part of it,  is that most westerners don't really want to go there. Or they confuse the stem, or the branches even, with the root.

 

[Banzai]

The disconnect from reality on display in this thread is pretty outrageous...

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/london-bridge-terror-attack-theresa-may-terrorism-speech-downing-street-what-she-refused-to-tell-you-a7773011.html

 

[JohnRoberts]

JohnRoberst wrote:
DaveP wrote:
I see keywords like root and source. The problem, or at least a big part of it,  is that most westerners don't really want to go there. Or they confuse the stem, or the branches even, with the root.

I hope we don't devolve to a trigger words discussion.

What I am trying to say is that ISIS is a common problem for all of us. The fact that they have perverted islam to provide their justification for killing and violence, makes it just logical that we need to attack this perversion, not the entire religion.

I am optimistic that some religious clerics have risked their own personal safety issuing a fatwa declaring such violence haram (forbidden by Islamic law).  This seems like a huge PR or marketing project we should all support to effectively communicate this more sensible interpretation of Islamic teaching, and discredit the islamic radical perversion that supports violence in the name of religion. 

It is a classic political strategy to pit us against each other, and ISIS wants to promote a culture clash to draw energy from. we need to stop helping them do that.

JR