Donald trump. what is your take on him?

[JohnRoberts]

Police forces in the UK have had firearms units since well before I was born...

If all Bobbies were armed the first one would not have been stabbed, the armed Bobbies showed up minutes later and dispatched the knife wielding (van wielding) terrorists.

JR

PS: I won't lecture a brit about guns and police in britain but have followed the recent history albeit from a distance.

 

[DaveP]

The disconnect from reality on display in this thread is pretty outrageous...

The only one disconnected from reality is Corbyn.  He was a traitor to the labour movement from day one.
I cannot take seriously anyone's comments if they are a fan of Corbyn, like the author of that article

The world is much more complicated than that simplified rant.

Back on topic, Trump seems to have gotten some positive action from his first tour viz. Qatar.

DaveP

 

[Banzai]

The only one disconnected from reality is Corbyn.  He was a traitor to the labour movement from day one.
I cannot take seriously anyone's comments if they are a fan of Corbyn, like the author of that article

The world is much more complicated than that simplified rant.

Back on topic, Trump seems to have gotten some positive action from his first tour viz. Qatar.

DaveP

Yes Dave, let's put muslims in a concentration camp instead.

 

[JohnRoberts]

The only one disconnected from reality is Corbyn.  He was a traitor to the labour movement from day one.
I cannot take seriously anyone's comments if they are a fan of Corbyn, like the author of that article

The world is much more complicated than that simplified rant.

Back on topic, Trump seems to have gotten some positive action from his first tour viz. Qatar.

DaveP

It is hard to read whether this is all good, bad, or mixed. Qatar has been playing both sides of the street for some time...They have a taliban office there, and support some undesirable groups, but also hosts the largest US military base in the region,  home of US central command's forward headquarters and where many air operations against ISIS and the like are launched from.

It isn't obvious to me how this will play out.  I hope for the better but won't speculate.

JR

PS: QATAR's wealth comes from natural gas and this may be a diminishing asset as modern fracking techniques finds NG under every loose rock. Qatar was wiser than most in the region at investing their energy profits into other business ventures.

 

[DaveP]

Yes Dave, let's put muslims in a concentration camp instead.

Exaggeration and misrepresentation doesn't improve anyone's argument.

But interning the people on the watch list might stop these events happening quite so often and make life easier for the security services to do their job.

As to what I would do, rather than what I wouldn't, I would deport suspects even if they were likely to be killed in their own countries.  That loop hole needs closing before any more exploitation under human right legislation.

Secondly I would remove citizenship from anyone connected to terrorism.

DaveP

 

[JohnRoberts]

Exaggeration and misrepresentation doesn't improve anyone's argument.

But interning the people on the watch list might stop these events happening quite so often and make life easier for the security services to do their job.

I suspect it's already too late... with tens of thousands identified at possible risks.

we need to think outside the box... this is beyond a police problem, but a cultural relations issue.  One suggestion I've heard to change the culture is universal government service for all youth. This might help with the US vs THEM dichotomy to make them all feel like they are on the same team as their government.  While this is a little optimistic too.

If we keep doing the same thing we will keep getting the same result.

JR

PS: Some ME news I can understand, Iraq military has cut off a key midpoint way station in the resupply route between Raqqa and Mosul (near the Iraq/Syria border... Looks like another sign of ISIS losing strength in their home turf. 

As to what I would do, rather than what I wouldn't, I would deport suspects even if they were likely to be killed in their own countries.  That loop hole needs closing before any more exploitation under human right legislation.

Secondly I would remove citizenship from anyone connected to terrorism.

DaveP

 

[Banzai]

Exaggeration and misrepresentation doesn't improve anyone's argument.

But interning the people on the watch list might stop these events happening quite so often and make life easier for the security services to do their job.

As to what I would do, rather than what I wouldn't, I would deport suspects even if they were likely to be killed in their own countries.  That loop hole needs closing before any more exploitation under human right legislation.

Secondly I would remove citizenship from anyone connected to terrorism.

DaveP

Thanks for the lesson. These are your own words:

"The situation is much the same as the Japs in the US after Pearl Harbour at present."

Japanese Americans were put into concentration camps.

 

[fazer]

The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few.  Spock

Let's wait for a massive tragedy before acting.

 

[DaveP]

"The situation is much the same as the Japs in the US after Pearl Harbour at present."

Japanese Americans were put into concentration camps.

I said the situation was the same because of the suspected fifth column element.
Anything like that would be totally unacceptable nowadays and would be completely counter productive in any case.

If you have Japanese ancestry, no offence was meant, I was simply referring to historical facts, because internment of suspects is probably on the table again at present.

DaveP

 

[Banzai]

Fair to say Iran has earned its free-pass to annihilate ISIS and any salafist terrorist groups, in any country, and in any fashion it deems fit.

Game over.

 

[Banzai]

What I am trying to say is that ISIS is a common problem for all of us. The fact that they have perverted islam to provide their justification for killing and violence, makes it just logical that we need to attack this perversion, not the entire religion.

These groups aren't doing anything that isn't being taught to children in Saudi schoolbooks. The cancer is Wahabism, not Islam.

And guess who's books ISIS uses in their schools? But neither the US or anyone in the West wants to attack the source, so here we are. Attack after attack, mosques still preach extremism, kids are still brainwashed, and the Saudi's, Qatari's, and Emirati's still fund.

This isn't about opinions, it's about the West doing absolutely nothing to resolve Sunni Salafist terrorism. Plenty of holding hands, and bowing, and sword dances with the Wahabi's though, followed by plenty of finger pointing at Shia Iran as the 'number one terrorist sponsor in the world'. Add the arms contracts tying the hands of every administration to come, as no-one will want to jeopardise the $350B deal by upsetting the Saudi's, and the scene is set for this problem to never be resolved.

Point is, ISIS is just a name. Once they're destroyed, the ideology will still be there, and still be taught in 70-80% of the world's mosques (incidentally, all financed by Saudi Arabia). Saudi schoolchildren will still learn they must kill all Jews, Christians and Shia's, and the US will still be doing nothing about it.

And some of you will still be saying 'the world is more complicated than that'... What a f'ing joke.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Fair to say Iran has earned its free-pass to annihilate ISIS and any salafist terrorist groups, in any country, and in any fashion it deems fit.

Game over.

Which game?  In Iran's world view it is fair game to kill US soldiers in Iraq (they provided munitions, IEDs,  and supported shia militias around Baghdad).

Power appears to be shifting away from shia and toward sunni in the region, while I view this as temporary expediency.

Iran is openly supporting Assad in Syria, but as Raqqa gets cleared of extremists the mosh pit of competing terror groups in Syria may get easier to sort out. That said Assad is making progress against his rebel opposition crowding them into the corner up by Turkey. This could end poorly for them.  I don't think the US has any long term interest in Syria other than preventing more humanitarian crisis.

JR

 

[L´Andratté]

I don't think the US has any long term interest in Syria other than preventing more humanitarian crisis.

Sorry to be so blunt, but...LOL!
Yes, of course, it´s all about humanitarin values. US politics are a bit out of credibility in the rest of the world, if you haven´t noticed.
http://youtu.be/CwSk5Jqoadk
GTF out of Iraq and provide some proper living conditions for US citizens.

NO, NOT meant hateful or even disregarding towards any single person, just astounded about the massive filter bubble that seems to encapsulate the US media and public...

 

[JohnRoberts]

These groups aren't doing anything that isn't being taught to children in Saudi schoolbooks. The cancer is Wahabism, not Islam.

Yes... It is a poorly kept secret that many of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi and funding for much terrorism in the region comes from that country.  I don't think the Saudi government encourages this terrorism but is complicit in appeasing the religious sect.

The Saudis have used their massive oil wealth to maintain power and stability at home, but paying young people to sit around and do nothing won't end well. What is even worse for the saudis is this oil wealth is not bottomless, but will eventually run out, so they are planning a huge  ($T of dollars) IPO to sell off a fraction of Aramco the government owned oil company, to build up a sovereign wealth fund they use to invest (like Norway and other smart nations with oil wealth) and create a robust future revenue stream. Coincident with the big Trump visit, money managers met in Saudi arabia to discuss the future IPO, and how to divide up the pot of gold. I am sure there were behind the scenes discussions about Saudi's problem with wahhabism. This will not be easy to turn. 

And guess who's books ISIS uses in their schools? But neither the US or anyone in the West wants to attack the source, so here we are. Attack after attack, mosques still preach extremism, kids are still brainwashed, and the Saudi's, Qatari's, and Emirati's still fund.

Unclear how to do this in Saudi Arabia, by outsiders, They need to flush their own problem. The west needs to purge this teaching of hate from mosques and schools in the west first.

This isn't about opinions, it's about the West doing absolutely nothing to resolve Sunni Salafist terrorism. Plenty of holding hands, and bowing, and sword dances with the Wahabi's though, followed by plenty of finger pointing at Shia Iran as the 'number one terrorist sponsor in the world'. Add the arms contracts tying the hands of every administration to come, as no-one will want to jeopardise the $350B deal by upsetting the Saudi's, and the scene is set for this problem to never be resolved.

This is not a simple and one sided as you suggest. Both sides have dirty hands.

Point is, ISIS is just a name. Once they're destroyed, the ideology will still be there, and still be taught in 70-80% of the world's mosques (incidentally, all financed by Saudi Arabia). Saudi schoolchildren will still learn they must kill all Jews, Christians and Shia's, and the US will still be doing nothing about it.

The would be caliphate in Raqqa is a powerful recruiting tool, used in writing and imagery to suggest they are winning (people want to join winners not losers). Turning Raqqa into a parking lot, and ISIS into losers will destroy that attractive image... but I agree the message of hate has to be stopped all around the world (the south pacific is another region at risk). As I've said before this is a PR and marketing problem that we haven't addressed sufficiently. We should be dropping copies of that fatwa from airplanes over much of the middle east (world?), including Saudi arabia.

And some of you will still be saying 'the world is more complicated than that'... What a f'ing joke.

Not a joke, and not as simple as you suggest.  Politics is the practice of promoting simple answers to complex problems. Which is why they rarely reach the goal line, but just kick the can down the road for future politicians to wrestle with.  I believe I see recent progress in the middle east but I have always been an optimist.  Forgive me if i repeat, but it will be "complicated".

JR

 

[JohnRoberts]

Sorry to be so blunt, but...LOL!
Yes, of course, it´s all about humanitarin values. US politics are a bit out of credibility in the rest of the world, if you haven´t noticed.
http://youtu.be/CwSk5Jqoadk
GTF out of Iraq and provide some proper living conditions for US citizens.

I will not defend or relitigate deposing Saddam and the initial fighting in Iraq, which goes all the way back to when saddam invaded Kuwait, but President Obama pulling out US forces before the fledgling Iraqi government was stable, directly enabled  ISIS to take over (sunni) Mosul and establishing itself in the region.

The US withdrawal has led to Iran gaining even more influence with the mostly Shia Iraqi government, but Iraq has significant sunni and kurdish populations that need to be integrated into the one democratic government. This is still a grand experiment in democracy that could become a positive example for the region, or yet another failure of western intervention. The last chapter of that book has yet to be written and some (many?) in the region want them to fail. 

NO, NOT meant hateful or even disregarding towards any single person, just astounded about the massive filter bubble that seems to encapsulate the US media and public...

It is human nature to think that people with different opinions must be ignorant.  There is no doubt I am influenced by what I read, and see, but mostly what I read (some of it here).  A lot from reading newspapers and paying attention to world events for the last few decades.

JR

 

[L´Andratté]

This is still a grand experiment in democracy that could become a positive example for the region, or yet another failure of western intervention. The last chapter of that book has yet to be written and some (many?) in the region want them to fail.

No, sorry to disagree, it´s not. Iraq has turned from slaughterhouse to giant slaughterhouse,  it´s a failed state ruled by equivalents of mafia clans and religious fractions that put on nice faces for the cameras. (Edit: *warlords* is the word)
My point is not Iraq though, it´s GTF out of everywhere, it´s not like there´s a point in droning more innocent people.

In my work I come across people from Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Syria, Eritrea, Yemen and what not, I speak with these people, they are civilized (mostly), just like americans are (mostly), fathers, mothers, children.
If talk comes to USA, it´s never about democracy, it´s mostly about dead family members or neighbors, that were no terrorists. That´s what I hear every day.
It grieves me to say so, but that democracy thing is probably aimed at US citizens (Edit: *voters*) mostly.

JR, what you say about dividing the people is my opinion also, I don´t think you´re ignorant or anything, just sharing my thoughts, and I must say I´m shocked at the way things are going, the rockets and jetfighters are not going to do anything good.

Edit: I´m really imprecise, pardon. I work with traumatized children, and I could write a book about this thing, but it´s not the place and time (and language, btw.).
And while I´m shocked, I´m also trying to stay calm and rational about things.
There´s all kinds of evil in the world and of course it doesn´t all spring from the US geostrategic interests, but a lot actually is.  And to many (who are neither dumb or fanatic) the US military is a thread just as big as ISIS, I´m astounded how little US citizens seem to be aware of that terrible fact. And I have not much good to say about german and european involvement to be fair.

 

[volker]

Get the popcorn ready: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yry9PV3DNfw

 

[JohnRoberts]

No, sorry to disagree, it´s not. Iraq has turned from slaughterhouse to giant slaughterhouse,  it´s a failed state ruled by equivalents of mafia clans and religious fractions that put on nice faces for the cameras. (Edit: *warlords* is the word)
My point is not Iraq though, it´s GTF out of everywhere, it´s not like there´s a point in droning more innocent people.

In my work I come across people from Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Syria, Eritrea, Yemen and what not, I speak with these people, they are civilized (mostly), just like americans are (mostly), fathers, mothers, children.
If talk comes to USA, it´s never about democracy, it´s mostly about dead family members or neighbors, that were no terrorists. That´s what I hear every day.
It grieves me to say so, but that democracy thing is probably aimed at US citizens (Edit: *voters*) mostly.

JR, what you say about dividing the people is my opinion also, I don´t think you´re ignorant or anything, just sharing my thoughts, and I must say I´m shocked at the way things are going, the rockets and jetfighters are not going to do anything good.

Edit: I´m really imprecise, pardon. I work with traumatized children, and I could write a book about this thing, but it´s not the place and time (and language, btw.).
And while I´m shocked, I´m also trying to stay calm and rational about things.
There´s all kinds of evil in the world and of course it doesn´t all spring from the US geostrategic interests, but a lot actually is.  And to many (who are neither dumb or fanatic) the US military is a thread just as big as ISIS, I´m astounded how little US citizens seem to be aware of that terrible fact. And I have not much good to say about german and european involvement to be fair.

I wrote a long answer but did not post it because even I get tired of listening to me...

A perhaps interesting milestone is that ISIS claimed responsibility for a terror attack inside Iran... Not very surprising that sunni  ISIS would attack shia Iran, but appears to be first time. This may be more evidence of deterioration of  ISIS strength  in raqqa/Mosul. I predicted an uptick of small. low tech terror attacks as they lost ground.

I worry more about the next phase. Turning the desert around Raqqa to glass may end ISIS for now but it will not end all radical islam that will be with us for decades(?).  We can continue to police and clear safe havens in lawless regions of the world, but we also need to clean up the no-go zones we allow to exist even inside western nations.

Lacking a geographic target (at least for them) shifts this to a pure PR or marketing battle for the minds of disenfranchised youth.

This will be harder than killing them when and where they are arrogant enough to set up a nation state  and take a stand. 

JR

 

[ungifted]

So keep on thinking that

the US has any long term interest in Syria other than preventing more humanitarian crisis.

and you'll get

all radical islam that will be with us for decades(?)

I know that we all live in global world but what do you think about "motherland"?
PS: We're all living in America, America... (c) Sorry for throlling.

 

[Matador]

Get the popcorn ready: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yry9PV3DNfw

It must be incredibly frustrating for Trump to be dogged day after day with seemingly baseless claims that call into question his legitimacy as a President:

[quote author=Donald Trump]
"Why doesn't he show his birth certificate? There's something on that birth certificate that he doesn't like."
- March 23, 2011, on "The View"

A lot of people do not think it was an authentic certificate. ... Many people do not think it was authentic. His mother was not in the hospital. There are many other things that came out. And frankly if you would report it accurately I think you'd probably get better ratings than you're getting.
- May 29, 2012, to CNN's Wolf Blitzer

An 'extremely credible source' has called my office and told me that @BarackObama's birth certificate is a fraud.
- August 6, 2012

Was it a birth certificate? You tell me. Some people say that was not his birth certificate. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. I'm saying I don't know. Nobody knows."
- August 2013, to ABC News

Well, I don't know -- did he do it? ... Well, a lot of people don't agree with you and a lot of people feel it wasn't a proper certificate."
-May 2014,
[/quote]