Donald trump. what is your take on him?

[Spiritworks]

Don't get me wrong, I know there are homophobic and xenophobic crimes because the perpetrators think they have been given a licence, the same thing happened in the UK after Brexit.  Creeps come out of the woodwork at every opportunity, just like the professional agitators who hijack peaceful demonstrations.

But from most peoples perspective, once a demo turns violent, the cause becomes a lost cause, sympathy vanishes, that's just how it is.  It's either seen as a tantrum (our guy didn't win) or a rejection of democracy.

It's rather a dangerous assertion to say that one form of violence is acceptable because it's just a reaction to other forms of violence.  That's what happens with vendettas and an eye for an eye mentality, it just increases the spiral.  Much better to occupy the higher ground of a peaceful protest like Gandhi did, it produces respect.

DaveP

Spot on.

 

[micaddict]

Yup.

But could it be this woudn't have happened had the next president been respectful in his campaign?

 

[DaveP]

But could it be this wouldn't have happened had the next president been respectful in his campaign?

Yes, this is probably true.  He said things that were positively detrimental to his campaign.  He was so keen to convince his supporters that he was not a professional politician that he shot from the hip and said all kinds of rubbish, I think most people must have taken much of what he said with a pinch of salt.  He has started to back-track now that he has had a reality check and I'm sure this will continue.

DaveP

 

[micaddict]

Might be too late.

 

[lassoharp]

Feeler:  Mike Pence.  What is your take on him?

 

[micaddict]

Discussing politics on a forum is volutile stuff as it is.

Including Pence will likely add religion , too.

That could end up in combustion.

 

[desol]

"The question of his possible exit, whether by impeachment or not seems worth considering. . . . . ."

It's seems quite likely to me, after observing and considering the whole rotten enchilada. He was like a little bitch sitting next to Obama. Besides...he got what he wanted...to win. He doesn't have time for this presidency nonsense anymore....time to move on to bigger things.  :

 

[Indecline]

Might be too late.

I think you're absolutely right about that.. I'll also add that many of his supporters (that I personally know and speak with daily) have kept up the anti-liberal rhetoric and openly talk about running protesters over, shooting them, the continued brainwashed name calling (from both sides) etc. Not to say all trump supports are acting this way, but much of the hardcore alt-right base is beyond senseable conversation.

Several of my very close friends fall into that category, and I talk with them a lot about the current political landscape. They are extremely intelligent people, and I have a lot of respect for their opinion. I spoke at length with one the other day about the brain-washed "trigger" words that have been slandered around the whole election. (I'm talking words like lib-tard on the right, and bigot from the left). We both came to the obvious conclusion that they are not actually helpful in changing people's minds and divulge quickly into immature name calling. And it also immediately shuts down the conversation. I talked with him about creative arguments, and how much more effective it is when you make an original argument instead of repeating media talking points. We both agreed.. that night he's on facebook calling people stupid lib-tards and how the protesters should be shot, they're all winey babies that don't have a job, need a safe space, armed revolution etc. I asked him the next day about it and he said he just doesn't care. This is a 60yo, extremely intelligent man who knows he's just regurgitating mindless rhetoric, and he doesn't care.

On the other side, any of my friends who say they voted for trump are immediately called a racist and a bigot.. even though they are neither.

I honestly believe we are too far gone at this point. I also believe that had trump lost, there would be armed protesters in the streets trying to start some kind of revolution.

Sorry for the super long post.. This is one of the few places I see open conversation can happen without being overly polarized. Thank you to all who hold that kind of esteem for these discussions. I'm afraid we are the minority now in this country..

 

[mattiasNYC]

This is all getting pretty emotional

we all think that our personal perspective is the correct one.

if you think that I am being condescending so be it.

JR

Curious how there are

1. complaints about PC running amok.
2. complaints about people not being respectful.
3. complaints about being accused of being condescending.

Just what are the rules of discourse here? I smell an "inconsistency".

 

[mattiasNYC]

It's rather a dangerous assertion to say that one form of violence is acceptable because it's just a reaction to other forms of violence. 

And that is also an assertion I did NOT make.

 

[mattiasNYC]

Several of my very close friends fall into that category, and I talk with them a lot about the current political landscape. They are extremely intelligent people, and I have a lot of respect for their opinion. I spoke at length with one the other day about the brain-washed "trigger" words that have been slandered around the whole election. (I'm talking words like lib-tard on the right, and bigot from the left). We both came to the obvious conclusion that they are not actually helpful in changing people's minds and divulge quickly into immature name calling. And it also immediately shuts down the conversation. I talked with him about creative arguments, and how much more effective it is when you make an original argument instead of repeating media talking points. We both agreed.. that night he's on facebook calling people stupid lib-tards and how the protesters should be shot, they're all winey babies that don't have a job, need a safe space, armed revolution etc. I asked him the next day about it and he said he just doesn't care. This is a 60yo, extremely intelligent man who knows he's just regurgitating mindless rhetoric, and he doesn't care.

On the other side, any of my friends who say they voted for trump are immediately called a racist and a bigot.. even though they are neither.

And here I would like to blame Trump yet again. His whole campaign was essentially based on perpetuating a "facts dont matter" approach to life. Why would a Trump supporter care about it being factually true that being more measured in ones interactions with each other being more productive when facts don't matter? And at some point, why would those against Trump care when that's the level he's setting?

In this very thread someone made a ridiculous claim and I explained simply just how those types of claims go, with not even a single recognition thereof, or refutation of my argument. And then on it goes to the next unsupported claim. So reason and facts don't matter. Appealing to emotion or decency or philosophy doesn't matter either. We can't really argue that all people should be afforded equal rights regardless of gender, race or sexual orientation, because the Trump voters are more likely to believe that's not true. So what's left. The "left" feels they've tried everything. "We" are just tired of trying it all. We're not getting anywhere.

I honestly believe we are too far gone at this point. I also believe that had trump lost, there would be armed protesters in the streets trying to start some kind of revolution.

It's possible that would have been the case, and it's yet again a problem with Trump and his campaign. By several times endorsing violence, by implying the system is rigged and that a loss in the election would have been evidence of that, he invited exactly that response. Clinton did no such thing.

And so again, with Trump having so clearly drawn the line between real Americans and the enemy - Mexicans and Muslims - it's entirely clear just how that would have turned out.

 

[JohnRoberts]

I think you're absolutely right about that.. I'll also add that many of his supporters (that I personally know and speak with daily) have kept up the anti-liberal rhetoric and openly talk about running protesters over, shooting them, the continued brainwashed name calling (from both sides) etc. Not to say all trump supports are acting this way, but much of the hardcore alt-right base is beyond senseable conversation.

IIRC isn't it OK to shoot people in Houston over traffic disputes?  (Kidding my brother lived in Houston for a while.)

Several of my very close friends fall into that category, and I talk with them a lot about the current political landscape. They are extremely intelligent people, and I have a lot of respect for their opinion. I spoke at length with one the other day about the brain-washed "trigger" words that have been slandered around the whole election. (I'm talking words like lib-tard on the right, and bigot from the left).

As I've shared before this is an obvious political strategy to keep us talking at each other not with each other to lock in sides.

We both came to the obvious conclusion that they are not actually helpful in changing people's minds and divulge quickly into immature name calling. And it also immediately shuts down the conversation.

The name calling (AKA identity politics) is an overt strategy to thwart exchange of ideas not a deterioration of otherwise civil discourse after the fact.  I was hopeful that the residue of all this discord would dissipate by now but i still can't watch TV (a business channel still stirring the political pot). And social media is still a flame,,, I have dominantly conservative friends, but my several liberal friends keep me busy with sites and intemperate posts to block even today.

I talked with him about creative arguments, and how much more effective it is when you make an original argument instead of repeating media talking points. We both agreed.. that night he's on facebook calling people stupid lib-tards and how the protesters should be shot, they're all winey babies that don't have a job, need a safe space, armed revolution etc. I asked him the next day about it and he said he just doesn't care. This is a 60yo, extremely intelligent man who knows he's just regurgitating mindless rhetoric, and he doesn't care.

There is pent up anger on the right from 8 years of dismissal and insult. I hope the left will be treated more fairly but right now expectations and behavior indicate very low expectations. 

On the other side, any of my friends who say they voted for trump are immediately called a racist and a bigot.. even though they are neither.

I can relate  :

I honestly believe we are too far gone at this point. I also believe that had trump lost, there would be armed protesters in the streets trying to start some kind of revolution.

I don't recall any such protests after President Obama won twice. That is why they are called the silent majority, mostly law abiding, job holders, who don't have the time or inclination to riot. The tea party movement seems tame by comparison to current reactions. . 

I remain optimistic we can heal but leaders need to continue to work together and embrace the transition not reject it like so many followers. 

Sorry for the super long post.. This is one of the few places I see open conversation can happen without being overly polarized. Thank you to all who hold that kind of esteem for these discussions. I'm afraid we are the minority now in this country..

No, thank you for adding yet another reasonable voice. I think there are far more reasonable people across America who don't frequent social media or protest, who are willing to speak with their votes. I suspect thinking people from both sides are trying to figure out how to avoid another election this screwed up in the future.

It takes effort and patience to treat each other with respect and kindness even while in severe disagreement. I think this forum is the exception and it wasn't always this way.  Keep up the good work everybody.

JR

 

[mattiasNYC]

This article is actually pretty interesting. It's very long, so if you want a part of it to get a feel for it you can search for the following on the page and start reading there:

"In Eric Hoffer’s classic 1951 tract, The True Believer, "

 

[mattiasNYC]

I don't recall any such protests after President Obama won twice. That is why they are called the silent majority, mostly law abiding, job holders, who don't have the time or inclination to riot. The tea party movement seems tame by comparison to current reactions. . 

And for the millionth time:

Did Obama promote upcoming policies to

- discriminate against Christians by not allowing them into the country?
- discriminate against Christians by investigating / spying in/on churches?
- imply he'd legislate against straight marriage?
- promote policies that would by definition necessitate discrimination against whites?

Did he do any of those things?

If he had done all of those things, do you think that it still would have been a peaceful transition?

(those are not rhetorical questions)

 

[JohnRoberts]

And for the millionth time:

Did Obama promote upcoming policies to

- discriminate against Christians by not allowing them into the country?
- discriminate against Christians by investigating / spying in/on churches?
- imply he'd legislate against straight marriage?
- promote policies that would by definition necessitate discrimination against whites?

Did he do any of those things?

If he had done all of those things, do you think that it still would have been a peaceful transition?

(those are not rhetorical questions)

It sounds like you think they are rhetorical .

Are you suggesting that rioting is an acceptable form of political protest? Are you suggesting it is  justified in this case?

I do not want to put words in your mouth (nor do I really want to continue this).

JR

PS: I wasted a couple hours before the election doing the homework you assigned me, studying Hillary's testimony and public statements for lies. Despite finding several statements that were clearly untrue, she could easily defend them as not outright lies.. Impossible to prove what she knew or didn't when she spoke. To quote the secretary "at this point what difference does it make". 

 

[mattiasNYC]

It sounds like you think they are rhetorical .

Are you suggesting that rioting is an acceptable form of political protest? Are you suggesting it is  justified in this case?

I do not want to put words in your mouth (nor do I really want to continue this).

JR

You are changing the topic. The issue isn't whether or not there is justification in political protest or the shape it takes, the issue is whether or not you are comparing apples to apples. You are not. I'm 100% sure you're aware of it at this point, which is exactly why you won't answer the question.

IF{/i] the situation had been as I described it when Obama was elected, there would have been an outrage including riots. I guarantee it. The thing is that he likely would never have been elected with such implied or stated policies, because the left don't support that!

So, again; it is NOT comparing like with like. If it was, then in principle, we could have a straight up dictator type, perhaps a national socialist, and any resistance would have been equally refuted using the exact same argument. Of course that would have been ridiculous and that proves that the difference matters.

PS: I wasted a couple hours before the election doing the homework you assigned me, studying Hillary's testimony and public statements for lies. Despite finding several statements that were clearly untrue, she could easily defend them as not outright lies.. Impossible to prove what she knew or didn't when she spoke. To quote the secretary "at this point what difference does it make".

It's hardly a waste if you learn something. But regardless, what you've learned won't change your mind, just as what Pucho posted being shown to be unsubstantiated won't change his mind.

 

[DaveP]

Matt,
I know it's contrary to your inclination, (not a criticism) but it's sometimes more enlightening to step back and look at the broad picture rather than pursuing minutia until everyone loses interest.

The situation as I see it, is like someone has taken a pressure cap off an overheating radiator, lots of steam and hot air.

The Right in lots of countries has been lectured for a long long while about how they should address people (Ms etc), how they should feel about homosexuals, people are obese, not fat, etc ad infinitum, you know what I mean.  Couple that to companies exporting their jobs overseas and you can see that the result is growing resentment and anger that the political elites are ignoring them.

The fact is that older people in this demographic can remember when it wasn't that way, I can too.  We never swore in front of women, we held the door open for them and offered them our seats.  This has all changed and lots of young women would take offence at that courtesy now.  I was once told off for addressing a group of women as ladies, "We are not ladies, we are women" I was told.

There was a council in Rochdale in the UK that was reluctant to prosecute a large group of asian men who had raped young white girls from care homes, they were frightened it might look like racism, wtf!  This liberal political correctness started back in President Clinton's time and hit the UK about that time too.

All this pressure over around 25 years has resulted in Brexit and Trump, but it will not always be that way, I'm old enough to know that there is a political cycle in most countries and new generations vote differently after sufficient time has passed.  I may live to see the cycle turn again, you certainly will.

DaveP

 

[JohnRoberts]

You are changing the topic. The issue isn't whether or not there is justification in political protest or the shape it takes, the issue is whether or not you are comparing apples to apples. You are not. I'm 100% sure you're aware of it at this point, which is exactly why you won't answer the question.

IF{/i] the situation had been as I described it when Obama was elected, there would have been an outrage including riots. I guarantee it. The thing is that he likely would never have been elected with such implied or stated policies, because the left don't support that!

So, again; it is NOT comparing like with like. If it was, then in principle, we could have a straight up dictator type, perhaps a national socialist, and any resistance would have been equally refuted using the exact same argument. Of course that would have been ridiculous and that proves that the difference matters.

It's hardly a waste if you learn something. But regardless, what you've learned won't change your mind, just as what Pucho posted being shown to be unsubstantiated won't change his mind.

What I learned just reinforced my already low opinion of her (and congressional hearings). I was impressed by her lawyerly parsing of words and manipulation of top aides to keep her fingerprints off the questionable activities, but i could have used those hours more productively. 

The election is over and I am weary about wrestling in the mud, or doing homework. My next door neighbor insisted I watch a video (I hate videos) I did and hated it... luckily it was short. 

On another forum another old friend is going ballistic about the protestor shot in Portland (by "those pigs") saying it's war. 

WTF  not even a full moon. Can't we all just get along?

JR

PS: Saw a funny meme on FB that Cleveland Indians fans were protesting the Cubs win and demanding the world series contest be reversed. 

 

[mattiasNYC]

Matt,
I know it's contrary to your inclination, (not a criticism) but it's sometimes more enlightening to step back and look at the broad picture rather than pursuing minutia until everyone loses interest.

That's how lies and misunderstandings perpetuate. By continuously perpetuating "the story" regardless of it being right or wrong.

That's what gives us Trump. You appear to both follow that type of discussion then as well as endorsing it.

 

[DaveP]

No, I'm not endorsing anything, I'm acknowledging the reality of what has gone down without passing judgement.

I will be in a position to judge Trump when I have seen the results of his presidency after four years.  If everything goes to hell in a hand cart, then you will be able to proclaim "I told you so".

My gut instinct is that, that will not happen because of the US constitution.  From what I've learned from this forum and other places, getting anything done in the US  legislature is like wading through treacle.  He has both parties against him at the moment, as well as the Washington elites who are scared for their jobs, he has a mountain to climb.

DaveP