Donald trump. what is your take on him?

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JohnRoberts said:
When politicians very publicly attack gun ownership, some people actually believe they will act.  Increasing back ground checks was #9 on Hillary's top ten list of campaign promises.

The difference here is that the first part in bold is pretty general. It reads as if the goal of the presidency would be to abolish all guns, period. The second part however only targets the procedure of acquiring a gun. A lot of conservatives that are all for protecting the nation against terrorism will typically say that intrusion into one's private life is ok, because "If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear." The same should reasonably apply here; if you've done nothing wrong you will pass a background check just fine.

So what's the problem with increasing background checks and how does that amount to a general "attack" on "gun ownership"? Wasn't it actually an argument in the gun-thread that some violence could have been stopped had there been better vetting of the prospective owners since it would have revealed mental illness? Or am I remembering that wrong?

I think gun-owners that hoard weapons are by and large irrational fearful simpletons, with some exceptions.

JohnRoberts said:
Both sides have their knee-jerk ideology.  Tim Kaine reflexively tweeted about gun violence after the OSU "knife" attack.  ::)

That's a great example, because he corrected that within two-three hours, on the same Twitter feed.

When was the last time Trump corrected his inaccuracies?

JohnRoberts said:
Imagine the computer to run that matrix, no wonder there are glitches. They can't even make a mac or PC that doesn't glitch up.

JR

There's actually a very logical good argument for us not being real, and instead being simulations in a computer.
 
More Fake News

This time liberal flavour

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3872194/Donald-Trump-takes-Times-Square-storm-band-bikini-clad-babes-Kind-Photographer-Alison-Jackson-sets-hilarious-spoof-campaign-rally-middle-New-York-City.html

Used to be only governments had the resources to publish propaganda and downright lies, now social media lets all the fruitcases in on the act.

Ever since I heard two young guys saying the moon landings never happened, I have hated conspiricy theorists.  They were too young to know that Russia tracked them there and back and would have been the first to call fake.

DaveP
 
dmp said:
I think the folks funding this and pulling the strings didn't know exactly where it would lead (cause yes, the fake news sites were funded with big $$$) but this propaganda got people tuned out from reality, distrusting the 'establishment', and oblivious to the real changes being done politically that were just enabling the rich to extract more and more money from the middle class. I think this played a big part in where we are now.  Enough people believed this nonsense to get Trump elected.

I actually think only part of that is true. In my opinion, it isn't just big money behind fake news as the PBS article showed, but just regular people wanting to make extra money. There are even some towns abroad where several people began making a living putting out fake news.

So what I think has happened - and what is far, far worse - is that our entire society has been led to an ultimately foreseeable conclusion (though we're surely not done yet). The very basis for our society is an adversarial one where everything is divided into left vs. right, good vs. bad, plaintiff vs. defendant, buyer vs. seller, conservative vs. liberal. R vs. D, capitalist vs. socialist etc, and it is that way not only because it serves the purpose of the few powerful people that run a lot of things, but because the system itself promotes it. Any financial entity in our society has as its goal to make a profit. There is morality concerned in that. And so we all do what we can to make money.

In the process of doing so we dumb things down, because it sells. And it's not just fake news, it's fake anything! I work in post-production, and so much of reality- and lifestyle programming is fake it's mind boggling. But many producers never think twice about that. And it spread from those genres to documentaries as well. I used to hear dialog heavily edited only in reality and lifestyle programming, which was a minor issue because "who cares", but the very fact that the population has been taught to accept that type of sound meant that it's now in a bunch of "documentaries" as well. So, now, when we hear dialog that's been edited, we don't even think twice about it. The documentary's demand for a clean unedited source gave way for the need to tell a story efficiently and quickly. So we now rely not on the source to tell us something but on the altruism and intellectual skills of the producer/director/editor. But of course their jobs are to tell a story, and the story's job is to sell the content, meaning truth gives way to a good story (profit) and it's therefore no wonder we are where we are.

Add to that all the other types of content, as I mentioned, where at one point in time it'd have been seen as "wrong" to lie about something just to make money. Nobody cares any more. Greed has taken over, and I can tell people don't think about things in depth any longer because who the f wants to spend the time? Can it be condensed into a snappy click-bait headline? Cool, I'll read that and take it as the truth if it conforms with what I believe, but don't ask me to click on a bunch of links to follow the story to its source. No time for that.

I'm not sure if I mentioned this earlier, but the terrorist massacre in Norway was preceded by exactly this type of nonsense, and I actually predicted that bad things would come out of it (before the massacre). And before then we had the borderline mass-psychosis that was "repressed memories" and the hundreds of people that ended up suffering from false accusations and convictions. And now of course the media landscape is far, far worse, with people willing turning away from the more and more mediocre "legit" news outlets.....

I'm sorry, I'm rambling..... I'll stop now.... I mostly agree with you I think..... with some caveats... is what I wanted to say...
 
DaveP said:
More Fake News

This time liberal flavour

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3872194/Donald-Trump-takes-Times-Square-storm-band-bikini-clad-babes-Kind-Photographer-Alison-Jackson-sets-hilarious-spoof-campaign-rally-middle-New-York-City.html

Isn't that pretty disingenuous though Dave?

Everything one reads and sees within the first 20 seconds in that article tells clearly that it isn't the real Donal Trump. So it isn't actually "fake news", is it?

dmp said:
Used to be only governments had the resources to publish propaganda and downright lies, now social media lets all the fruitcases in on the act.

"Fruitcase" in American English has the connotation of being gay and is seen as derogatory. Just fyi.

But I agree with the sentiment of what you say apart from that.
 
More Fake News
This time liberal flavour
False equivalency. That article is showing satire- something that is obviously not true. (Unless you can find millions of liberals sharing that story as real news. But the article itself said it is a Trump impostor, basically a stunt for satire.)
On the conservative side, there was a prominent conspiracy smearing Hilary Clinton as having a body double in the weeks before the election because she was *supposedly* in such poor health.  But the conservative mainstream media sites reported it as truth.
Keep trying though - I think it will be a really good learning experience for people who lean conservative to investigate this.
 
dmp said:
It is interesting to read about the computing power & memory of the human brain. It's incredible. Memory for concepts, images, sounds. Self healing. Long lasting. self reproducing (with a body). Weighs about 3 lbs and is compact.
With all that humans have created, it is still by far the most incredible technology known.
Compare a supercomputer to your home PC  (Blue Gene, MIRA / Sequoia).  I don't think we even have the ability to imagine what a super brain could do.
A real concern among some futurists is what happen not if but when silicon brains eclipse meat brains. Will they be generous toward their inferiors (us), or be programmed to absolutely never harm humans, like Isaac Asimov's classic science fiction. I'm sure it will start out that way (already that way for factory automation).

There has already been multiple science fiction stories exploring these possible futures. Some embarrassingly bad science fiction, out there too. Not as embarrassing as the political fiction, but I'll pass on that for now. It looks like some of the big internet media players are going to work together to block terror recruiting, perhaps they can form a similar association to thwart fake news ( I end up correcting one friend who reposts obviously fake stuff almost daily on social media, I guess it isn't obvious to everyone, especially if resonant with an individual's partisan viewpoint).

JR 
 
dmp said:
I don't think we even have the ability to imagine what a super brain could do.

I think that's a profound thought actually. I've read it before, and it's scary.

Maybe we'd be to it what dogs are to us. They're pretty intelligent and can figure out our emotions a lot of the time, but clearly inferior to the point of not knowing just how inferior they are (I'm talking about intelligence here.... in many ways I prefer dogs to humans)
 
Maybe we'd be to it what dogs are to us. They're pretty intelligent and can figure out our emotions a lot of the time, but clearly inferior to the point of not knowing just how inferior they are (I'm talking about intelligence here.... in many ways I prefer dogs to humans)

For a little more context - simulating a small volume (say 1/2 a liter) with all the laws of thermodynamics in a massively parallel supercomputer takes months to run for less than a second.  Now imagine the processing power required to "run" the entire planet (or universe).
I would say the analogy isn't people to dogs, it is more like people to bacteria.
 
Can't remember who, perhaps Kurtzweil, but someone argued that it'd actually literally be that type of problem if AI gets out of hand. We create something which at its underlying core principle is understandable to us, conceptually, yet our lack of imagination prevents us from seeing the extent of the development of it. So the AI, perhaps imbued by laws to govern it, may progress to a point of intelligence where communication with us by it isn't just unnecessary, but borderline impossible. It just grows in intelligence so rapidly and so far that why would it bother with us?

A scary thought that we'd sit there with an incredibly AI, incapable to properly communicate because we can't comprehend the answer because the AI is now too advanced. And depending on how it is created, can we even pull the plug on it?
 
"Fruitcase" in American English has the connotation of being gay and is seen as derogatory. Just fyi.
OOps, in any case I just realised I mixed my metaphors.  Should have been nutcase.

Regarding the link, I just meant that everyone is putting the boot in (unless that means something else too!)

I think everyone should give it a rest now though, judge the guy on results.

DaveP
 
mattiasNYC said:
A scary thought that we'd sit there with an incredibly AI, incapable to properly communicate because we can't comprehend the answer because the AI is now too advanced. And depending on how it is created, can we even pull the plug on it?

I just don't think AI will ever become self aware.  No matter how intelligent hardware becomes,  it will always be missing that drop of faerie dust that is awareness.

Seems like they would be able to reanimate a cadaver easily enough if all it took was 120v 60hz.  All the hardware is already there.  Repair the broken part and spark that baby back to life!

 
Script said:
...but he seems to possesses a character trait that is helpful in successful negotiation: erratic unpredictability. While a portion of this is good for negotiations, it's definitely not good for gaining trust as a president. :p

In business you almost always have a bigger customer pool to go after when you've used up (ie, chased away by being a difficult negotiator, whatever) your current customers. Government really can't work that way, at all.
 
bluebird said:
I just don't think AI will ever become self aware.  No matter how intelligent hardware becomes,  it will always be missing that drop of faerie dust that is awareness.

Seems like they would be able to reanimate a cadaver easily enough if all it took was 120v 60hz.  All the hardware is already there.  Repair the broken part and spark that baby back to life!

I'm not so convinced there is something magical about awareness though, I think it can be a pretty basic practical issue. As far as reanimating cadavers go we already do that by restarting the body of people who have died. But when it doesn't work I think the body actually really is broken beyond repair/restart.

On the other hand I think that from the practical standpoint that we're concerned with, a self-aware AI that causes us harm, the question that's related is possibly more philosophical; what qualifies as "awareness". And so we're really back to discussing Turing's test I think.

So in my view it's really to a certain degree irrelevant if the AI is truly self-aware in the sense we use the term to define our own awareness, or if it is self-aware in the sense that we can't tell the difference between if it is or isn't.
 
So we now rely not on the source to tell us something but on the altruism and intellectual skills of the producer/director/editor. But of course their jobs are to tell a story, and the story's job is to sell the content, meaning truth gives way to a good story (profit) and it's therefore no wonder we are where we are.

Mattias - this quote of yours rings so true.  Like you I worked in Post Production for the last 20 years and Music the previous 20 years.  Doing commercials and infotainment and some film means you tell the profit story and you try to go numb to what your selling everyday and just take care of your family.  But after awhile I just got bitter with the whole message and am glad to retire from it.  I sometimes wish I would have followed my electrical engineering after collage, instead of becoming a recording engineer/ audio editor.  I still record music but the best stuff is live performance in the moment.  And for me ,  without all the production and more musical story.
 
mattiasNYC said:
I'm not so convinced there is something magical about awareness though, I think it can be a pretty basic practical issue. As far as reanimating cadavers go we already do that by restarting the body of people who have died. But when it doesn't work I think the body actually really is broken beyond repair/restart.

I would also want to look at awareness in a scientific way if that ever becomes possible.  I stopped trying to understand what a soul is a while ago. Regardless, body's can be kept on life support and be working in a mechanical sense, but lack awareness.

Also, I don't think the gap between animal and human awareness  can be explained away with just brain size or make up.  I'm sure the brain of a dolphin is capable physically to build an underwater Atlantis if it had the awareness humans had.

Going in the other direction, we do have the technology to simulate the neural network of a fruit fly or earth worm but I have yet to see a robot that crawls or fly's around with as much purpose as a real live insect.

So I hesitate to use words like magical or spiritual, but awareness does seem to me, to exist outside of the physical universe we can understand...with it.
 
mattiasNYC said:
So we now rely not on the source to tell us something but on the altruism and intellectual skills of the producer/director/editor. But of course their jobs are to tell a story, and the story's job is to sell the content, meaning truth gives way to a good story (profit) and it's therefore no wonder we are where we are.

Add to that all the other types of content, as I mentioned, where at one point in time it'd have been seen as "wrong" to lie about something just to make money. Nobody cares any more. Greed has taken over, and I can tell people don't think about things in depth any longer because who the f wants to spend the time?

Also agreed on this.  I am also beware of people who use the likes of movies and TV as instruments to spread their own propaganda.  It still grates on me that the film Braveheart was a storm at the box-office and accepted as being factual in content.  I actually had an stand-up argument with some people over this.  It was primarily Mel Gibson's platform for his anti-British sentiments, was historically inaccurate with  not "an iota of fact in it". 

Regards

Mike
 
madswitcher said:
I am also beware of people who use the likes of movies and TV as instruments to spread their own propaganda.  It still grates on me that the film Braveheart was a storm at the box-office and accepted as being factual in content.  I actually had an stand-up argument with some people over this.  It was primarily Mel Gibson's platform for his anti-British sentiments, was historically inaccurate with  not "an iota of fact in it". 

Regards

Mike

Oh sure, I totally agree. I would maybe say that there's a fine line between deliberately spreading one's own propaganda, and propagating one's beliefs as a result of just creating content. It probably has the same effect anyway though.

But yeah, I think we can likely find a fairly scary amount of films that depict historic events in a completely inaccurate fashion.
 
bluebird said:
I would also want to look at awareness in a scientific way if that ever becomes possible.  I stopped trying to understand what a soul is a while ago. Regardless, body's can be kept on life support and be working in a mechanical sense, but lack awareness.

Also, I don't think the gap between animal and human awareness  can be explained away with just brain size or make up.  I'm sure the brain of a dolphin is capable physically to build an underwater Atlantis if it had the awareness humans had.

Going in the other direction, we do have the technology to simulate the neural network of a fruit fly or earth worm but I have yet to see a robot that crawls or fly's around with as much purpose as a real live insect.

So I hesitate to use words like magical or spiritual, but awareness does seem to me, to exist outside of the physical universe we can understand...with it.

Hmmm.... I guess we'll probably just disagree on this. I think "awareness" is indeed a very difficult thing to 'nail', but as far as I can see it all points to having purely physical, biological causes, and not exist outside of the physical universe.
 
So I hesitate to use words like magical or spiritual, but awareness does seem to me, to exist outside of the physical universe we can understand...with it.
I agree

We would have to be arrogant or extremely narrow minded to think at this point in time we understand all there is to know.  I think that there are other dimensions associated with the universe that are probably not necessarily material i.e made of atoms.  Time is associated with matter so other dimensions would be timeless.  200 years ago we knew so little, another 200 years is bound to broaden our horizons considerably,

DaveP
 
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