Expansive thinking, God the universe and humanity

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bluebird said:
Thats the whole point, the only thing that seems for sure is that there is something magical about life. But all of humanities thoughts about it are just that... thoughts. Human consciousness is just a weird byproduct of cells splitting. Theres no meaning, and individuality is an illusion. Just a complicated survival technique. Humanity is one massive organism. To say there is some repercussion or "karma" for the murderer who dies without getting caught is just mystical thinking. It would have to be true for the lion who eats the antelope. There is no wrong or right to life. There is no death, just matter changing form. That is the only real truth. Like CJ eluded to, the sun will eventually explode and this whole thing will be gone. That is definitely going to happen. And since time is all here now, it already happened. So I guess the whole point is really there is no point (in thought).

I mean in my OPINION that is ;D

Yes! U.G Krishnamurti. The anti-guru as some people describe him. And enlightened man who claims you will never become enlightened... so stop trying and get on with it.  A great philosopher!

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Mystique_of_Enlightenment/Part_One

You can't compare a lion to a human being. Humans 'far' outweigh a lion in terms of reasoning and responsibility. But, believing in God, as I do...either free will is an illusion and we are not responsible for our actions, or we've been granted free will by which our actions result in consequence. It's 'good' for me to believe that I'm becoming a better person, either way.




 
There's this whole other conversation I was musing about how consciousness becomes...I dunno..."conscious"...

You start with some raw material,  dna/proteins/biology stuff/etc...add some a few million steps of progress and some energy of some kind...and then BOOM! (Or BANG!) you have something that is self aware...that threshold...between just matter and a material sentient carbon based life form...thats the stuff of scifi movies and moral debates...when does a fetus become a child?

At some point, matter...becomes consciousness...actual physical mass takes on an internal and self aware posture...atoms/protons/neutrons/orbits become a "self"...does a rock have a self? Does a blade of grass have any sense of awareness? There is evidence that trees actually are aware of the environment and older trees in a forest will use less resources during a drought so younger trees can survive...

When does a universe become self aware?

I personally do not believe we will ever develop artificial intelligence, in spite of everyone freaking out about it I think the best we can do is Augmented Intelligence that is basically code...but I do not believe we have the capacity any time in the near future to cross that threshold between matter and a sentient creation...waaaay to many variables that we aren't even aware of yet.

What we are describing as "artificial intelligence" is just algorithms and code crunching data, there is not even a hint of self awareness in any of the code we write because the ability to step outside of yourself and imagine yourself is truly something remarkable, even understanding yourself as a "self" is a rather radical concept but we take so much fro granted because we live inside our heads so much.

This doesn't even begin to address the gut brain, the neural network that includes all the parasites and probiotic cultures inside of us...WE as individuals are as vast in microscopic detail as the universe is in scale...

You can chalk it up to an illusion, or delusion or whatever you want but the very fact of consciousness is enough to make the inward journey just as vast as the one into infinity.
 
no answer will ever be found on the subject of constructing  a bridge from the finite to the infinite,  it is impossible,

better to worry about finding a way to let the the infinite reach the finite.
 
desol said:
You can't compare a lion to a human being. Humans 'far' outweigh a lion in terms of reasoning and responsibility. But, believing in God, as I do...either free will is an illusion and we are not responsible for our actions, or we've been granted free will by which our actions result in consequence. It's 'good' for me to believe that I'm becoming a better person, either way.

Of course! I'm just throwing out ideas. This is all academic. I follow the rules of my society to the best of my ability. I'm too old and  tired to do anything else. But in a spare moment, I have what it takes to type a few words and free them into the interwebs to see what comes back. Which in itself is pretty mind blowing.

iomegaman said:
I personally do not believe we will ever develop artificial intelligence, in spite of everyone freaking out about it 

Did you think you were communicating with actual people here? 8)
 
bluebird said:
Of course! I'm just throwing out ideas. This is all academic. I follow the rules of my society to the best of my ability. I'm too old and  tired to do anything else. But in a spare moment, I have what it takes to type a few words and free them into the interwebs to see what comes back. Which in itself is pretty mind blowing.

Well, Spinoza's assertion of determinism is hard to wrap one's head around. Being too old and tired to care about the farther stretches of human experience probably extends a person's lifetime anyway.
Cheers!
 
no answer will ever be found on the subject of constructing  a bridge from the finite to the infinite,  it is impossible,
better to worry about finding a way to let the the infinite reach the finite.
+1

The fact that infinity can be pondered in the 3rd dimension is worth the price of admission.
Might the set of all sets include superluminal information?  If not, then the finite is infinitesimally small. 
If there are in fact higher dimensions, consciousness is the only vehicle I imagine suited for the journey.  8)
 
The concept of "Before" the big bang does not equate, since time started at that instant.  I think that the material universe with its time dimension is like a goldfish bowl in a bigger room of other non physical dimensions.

There are clues in the Bible as to our origins that line up to scientific thought.  Let there be light is the big bang where light condenses into simple atoms.  these coalesce under gravity to form the first stars.  Bigger and bigger stars explode spewing out heavier elements, as billions of years pass, life was bound to emerge eventually, all God had to do was wait, but living outside of time, that was not an issue.

Our human evolution was marked by the development of bigger brains (Eve's punishment was harder childbirth).  When the Bible talks about "Being made in God's image", I think that refers to the spiritual capacity and the ability to think. rather than appearance.  There is good reason to believe that our brain carries a spirit which is capable of  detachment, (out of body and near death experiences)  This is not a new idea, it was described by Charles Dickens in "Our Mutual Friend".

I agree that there is not much point to existence without reference to a higher power.  All there is, is reproduction, the pursuit of food, shelter, pleasure and legacy.  If you are lucky, you might get the love of a partner, children or others, but you pay dearly for that when they die.  King Soloman came to the same conclusion, way back.

DaveP
 
DaveP said:
I agree that there is not much point to existence without reference to a higher power.  All there is, is reproduction, the pursuit of food, shelter, pleasure and legacy.  If you are lucky, you might get the love of a partner, children or others, but you pay dearly for that when they die...

So the only way there is a point to my existence is if I have faith that there's a superior being and a life after this one? 
If so, that sounds somewhat of a death wish or cult to me.  I'd rather live here and now.

Surely paying dearly when loved ones die is part of the deal whichever way we look at it no?  The more you love, the bigger the pain.  You can choose to sign up for it or not regardless of belief in a higher power.  Love has no religion. 

Peace


 
 
DaveP said:
I agree that there is not much point to existence without reference to a higher power.
Isn't it precisely the reason why humans created God?
The analogy with goldfish is interesting. Their essence is pointless, the fact that humans like to have them in bowls is just incidental.
Why do believers believe that this "god" that created us AND the goldfish is more interested in our destiny than that of the goldfish?
The only entities interested by us are the other living creatures, and vice-versa.
 
So the only way there is a point to my existence is if I have faith that there's a superior being and a life after this one?
If so, that sounds somewhat of a death wish or cult to me.  I'd rather live here and now.

No, that is not what I'm saying.  If you are happy with your here and now then enjoy it.  But many people, while still enjoying life, still wonder what the point of it all is, that's what Ecclesiastes is exploring.  Hoping for something better in a life to come is hardly a death wish cult.

DaveP
 
Why do believers believe that this "god" that created us AND the goldfish is more interested in our destiny than that of the goldfish?
Goldfish have an instinctive program instead of a mind.  Humans have the ability to choose between good and evil, I would suggest that is what interests God.

DaveP
 
Transe has been advocated as a means of instant transportation. Beam me up, Sleepy!
More than a semi-lucid dream, I refer to the US Navy's official records on the tracking of multiple UAP's that by radar and witness testimony break the rules of classical physics. Given the quantity of sightings and reports of 'high strangeness' by credible observers, is it fair to say these UAP's might be carrying occupants who regularly exploit a science of higher dimensional travel? Might they themselves have access to higher states of consciousness?  After all, isn't it an artifact of being paired to a particular dimension, that brushing up against a superordinate reality would appear magical, dream-like?  The protozoa knows nothing of up or down, but maybe in protozoan dreams. Why must reality be no deeper or stranger than our monkey-minds can contemplate?  The UAP phenomenon ought to excite the average scientist, keep our child-like wonder alive.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Nimitz_UFO_incident
 
boji said:
More than a semi-lucid dream, I refer to the US Navy's official records on the tracking of multiple UAP's that by radar and witness testimony break the rules of classical physics. Given the quantity of sightings and reports of 'high strangeness' by credible observers, is it fair to say these UAP's might be carrying occupants who regularly exploit a science of higher dimensional travel? Might they themselves have access to higher states of consciousness?  After all, isn't it an artifact of being paired to a particular dimension, that brushing up against a superordinate reality would appear magical, dream-like?  The protozoa knows nothing of up or down, but maybe in protozoan dreams. Why must reality be no deeper or stranger than our monkey-minds can contemplate?  The UAP phenomenon ought to excite the average scientist, keep our child-like wonder alive.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Nimitz_UFO_incident
You're opening a big can o'worms, Boji!
 

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