Get ready for your first communist neighbor

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Dark1

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Communism as a philosophy is not bad, "give what you can, take what you need". If anything it seems a Christian way of living, we each do our part and help each other. In that sense always found it strange Marx was at odds with religion.

Communism or a more communal way of living can be great at the friends and family level.
The George Whitman's "give what you can, take what you need" has nothing to do with political communism. "Communism" as a system, or social science, is self-denying. Its purpose is said to be to establish a "just society" yet the only way to implement it is by a violent revolution, an injustice of a giant scale. The result being creation of a new ruling class (a real irony for a purportedly "classless" society) in many ways similar to monarchism, and a great reduction of personal freedoms of the enslaved population to stabilize this violently created system. The voluntary transcendence from capitalism to communism is unrealistic to say the least, quickly dismissed by all implementers in the past. Most nations of Eastern Europe who had "communism"/"socialism" forced on them tried to break free, but such efforts were all ended by Soviet military might.
 

cyrano

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Yes, it was all peaches, like the famine of 1921–22 that killed 5 mil. people in Russia and other unimportant hickups in the revolutionary period.

You might want to read up. Famine wasn't because of communism. The ongoing civil war, and more especially, drought was the reason. See wikipedia:


And as I said, it wasn't even that unusual. It was worse than usual, but regular famines were part of life in Russia, long before the revolution.
 

Dark1

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You really don't understand, do you?

It was under Stalin that things started to go bad. Really bad. Reasons were Stalin's absolute power and his resulting paranoia. I've already stated that.

Millions died of famine in Russia before the revolution too. Not really unusual in Russia, or China for that matter. In fact, these regular famines were part of the revolution's foundation in both countries. If people aren't suffering badly, they're not gonna stand up and fight.

Nothing to do with communism an sich. Communism is/was just another experiment to get away from feudalism. It's strange/funny that China is conquering Africa with capitalism. They probably don't want a revolution there...
Not really: All the promises of power sharing, "elected Soviets" etc. evaporated right in 1918 under Lenin, the Communist Party being the absolute power, with Lenin being just another monarch. This period, the "Red Terror", saw thousands upon tousands of "reactionaries" perish in concentration camps. The 1921-22 famine was a result of not only natural causes, but in great deal by forced collectivization/nationalization. Ironically, the US government tried to help with the relief efforts, much to Lenin's dismay. The subsequent peasant uprisings were ended violently by the Red Army.
 
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Dark1

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You might want to read up. Famine wasn't because of communism. The ongoing civil war, and more especially, drought was the reason. See wikipedia:


And as I said, it wasn't even that unusual. It was worse than usual, but regular famines were part of life in Russia, long before the revolution.
Yes, partly by drought, but also a great deal by forced collectivization, "government requisitioning", and also thanks to Lenin concentrating on "exporting communism" to other countries (speding a great deal of money, and even exporting grain at the time of the famine). He was really mainly interested in the "World Revolution", not in his people. See "Lenin: Life and Legacy" by Dmitri Volkogonov.
 
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john12ax7

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Another important thing is keeping things local, if at all possible. There's no need to import agricultural products from the other end of the planet if you can grow them locally. Especially if the only motive is profit. There's also no need to grow stuff locally if it's bad for the soil and you can import it.
I'm a big fan of local when it's feasible. There's some very strange things that go on in agriculture.
 

Dualflip

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You really don't understand, do you?

It was under Stalin that things started to go bad. Really bad. Reasons were Stalin's absolute power and his resulting paranoia. I've already stated that.

Millions died of famine in Russia before the revolution too. Not really unusual in Russia, or China for that matter. In fact, these regular famines were part of the revolution's foundation in both countries. If people aren't suffering badly, they're not gonna stand up and fight.

Nothing to do with communism an sich. Communism is/was just another experiment to get away from feudalism. It's strange/funny that China is conquering Africa with capitalism. They probably don't want a revolution there...
No I get it, you are saying that communism is not bad, it was just bad luck that countries with most of the greatest genocide dictators of the XX century happened to be communist. What a great coincidence.

I don't know if its translated to english, but there is a book by an Argentinian called Nicolas Marquez, who is an expert in the life of Che Guevara, he wrote 3 books about his life, the latest is called "The killing machine" a term created by Guevara himself, in the book, Marquez describes the life and the genocidal, racist and homophobical delusions of Guevara, the creation of his own concentration labor and death camp against gays in Cuba under the motto "the revolution does not need hairdressers" and "work will turn you into men", both comments made by Guevara himself, also, he was responsible of over a hundred deaths atributed by his own hand (people that he shot by himself) plus more than a thousand by his soldiers under his orders, plus the execution of over 60 Bolivians in Bolivia by his orders before he was arrested and killed in Bolivia.

Guevara was a physician and wrote a journal, in it, he described with medical and forensic precision the executions of his victims, among other things like his profound despise for black people. Another bad luck coincidence between communism and a crazy genocidal maniac.

BTW Marquez was termporarily detained, interrogated and imprisoned in your beloved and glorious Cuba for some time when he traveled there around 15 years ago to give an underground lecture, since he arrived to Cuba he claims to be constantly followed and approached by undercover goverment agents, he was arrested before he was able to give the lecture, he fled back to Argentina as soon as he could.
 
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Squeaky

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I'm a big fan of local when it's feasible. There's some very strange things that go on in agriculture.
"System and method for turning standard irrigation pivots into a social network of autonomous AI farming robots"

I live in a fruit growing district, including mandarins. Yet I see Australian mandarins for sale in the supermarket. I used to buy New Zealand squid when living in Australia. Living in New Zealand I buy Thai squid because the New Zealand squid goes to Australia. I pay more for the Thai squid in NZ than I did for the NZ squid in Australia. I can buy good quality Australian olive oil for less than the olive oil produced locally.
 

hodad

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I stopped reading this thread a while ago, but has anybody yet pointed out that Cuba is only 60 miles or so from the US, and has been our "communist neighbor" for about 60 years now?
 

Banzai

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Read again, I said I find understandable when he said that Mexico is not sending their best, not when he said that they are rapists and criminals, what I dislike about Biden is his hipocrisy.
Biden is religious. Regularly goes to Church.
Trump pretends he's religious. Never goes to Church.

Who's the hypocrite?

I am religious, you make it sound like you've discovered the atom.
On the topic of hypocrisy, very Christlike of you to wish he died from Covid. But obviously, you're pro-life too.......

Sanctity of life seems to end at birth with you religious folk. Guess that's when capitalism kicks in.
 

Dualflip

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Biden is religious. Regularly goes to Church.
Trump pretends he's religious. Never goes to Church.

Who's the hypocrite?


On the topic of hypocrisy, very Christlike of you to wish he died from Covid. But obviously, you're pro-life too.......

Sanctity of life seems to end at birth with you religious folk. Guess that's when capitalism kicks in.
Biden is so Catholic that the church is now debating whether to allow him to take communion or not, plus many priests have given very strong sermons outraged by Biden's "devotion", that is what the church thinks of his religiousness. Going to church regurlarly doesn't make you religious.

Regarding the death of my president, I didn't wish he died, I said he sadly recovered, some people are better dead (I am sure you can think of many examples, I can give you some), Jesus said to love your fellow brother, I try, I am not perfect, but to address your 'Christlike' comment, even Jesus said refering to Judas when he claimed that he was going to be betrayed " ...It would have been good for that man if he had not been born." Matthew 26:24, yes, some people are so disgusting and damaging that even for their own sake it would have been better if they were never born.

Now I am going to quote something not from the bible that definitely suits the last 2 sentences of your post

'When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser' - Socrates
 

Dualflip

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I stopped reading this thread a while ago, but has anybody yet pointed out that Cuba is only 60 miles or so from the US, and has been our "communist neighbor" for about 60 years now?
I'll be the one to point out that Mexico is 0 miles from the US and its not separated by an ocean, I will also point out that unlike Cuba, Mexico is the #1 trade partner for the USA Foreign Trade - U.S. Trade with .

And yes, I think the world was very aware of Cuba when they pointed russian nuclear missiles towards the US and nearly started WWIII
 

Banzai

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Soviet invasion of Finland in 1939, Soviet occupation of the Baltic states in 1940, Soviet invasion of Poland in 1939 (together with Nazi Germany), Soviet bloodbath following the East German uprising in 1953, the same during Hungarian revolution in 1956 and 1968 in Czechoslovakia, Soviets establishing the North Korea regime after the war, I can go on and on...
None of those are examples of death squads. US specifically created militia's that killed hundreds of thousands of supposed communists in South America. Today we'd call them terrorist groups.

We're also talking post-WW2. Not bringing up the US nuking Japan as an example of why they're the most evil country on the planet...

About your other comments on socialism: socialism is entirely compatible with capitalism. It's not rightwing ideologies that gave anyone universal healthcare, free education, or welfare. Subsidies, bailouts, public transport, public roads, all of it is socialism. Western society in its current form wouldn't exist without socialism. There is no exclusively capitalist or exclusively socialist society. The US is a mix. EU is a mix. China is a mix. Everywhere is a mix.

To equate socialism in 2021 with the USSR is lazy.
 
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Banzai

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Biden is so Catholic that the church is now debating whether to allow him to take communion or not, plus many priests have given very strong sermons outraged by Biden's "devotion", that is what the church thinks of his religiousness. Going to church regurlarly doesn't make you religious.

Regarding the death of my president, I didn't wish he died, I said he sadly recovered, some people are better dead (I am sure you can think of many examples, I can give you some), Jesus said to love your fellow brother, I try, I am not perfect, but to address your 'Christlike' comment, even Jesus said refering to Judas when he claimed that he was going to be betrayed " ...It would have been good for that man if he had not been born." Matthew 26:24, yes, some people are so disgusting and damaging that even for their own sake it would have been better if they were never born.

Now I am going to quote something not from the bible that definitely suits the last 2 sentences of your post
Yes, you wish he was dead.

I consider all US presidents to be war criminals, so don't have any bias in favour of Biden or feel any urge to defend him. But you want the Church to disown political leaders. Attacking his religious credentials because he separates Church and State is ridiculous.

The Mexico City policy also kills thousands of women. American political leaders pandering to religious groups for votes and donations kills women in South America, Africa and Asia. How does that reality sit with your religious beliefs? Fetus is sacred, but the mother's life is expendable because your 2000 year old book said so?

Same goes for chastising religious folk who don't abhor homosexuals. Get over yourselves. Religion is a personal choice and private. If someone believes in a God, they're religious. Doesn't need anyone else's approval or validation.
 
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Dualflip

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Related to my opening post, I don't know if you heard, but a metro line collapsed here in Mexico some days ago, tens are dead, the train line was built by the same members of the current administration. They are now claiming that it was probably sabbotage from the opposing political party to make them look bad.

If that wasn't enough, the president was asked by a reporter today "Mr. president, why havent you visited the victims at the hospital?" he answered "It is not my style, that is the old style, "fuck it"" yes he literally said "fuck it" in the morning conference when asked why he didn't visit the victims.
 
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Dualflip

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Yes, you wish he was dead.

I consider all US presidents to be war criminals, so don't have any bias in favour of Biden or feel any urge to defend him. But you want the Church to disown political leaders. Attacking his religious credentials because he separates Church and State is ridiculous.

The Mexico City policy also kills thousands of women. American political leaders pandering to religious groups for votes and donations kills women in South America, Africa and Asia. How does that reality sit with your religious beliefs? Fetus is sacred, but the mother's life is expendable because your 2000 year old book said so?

Same goes for chastising religious folk who don't abhor homosexuals. Get over yourselves. Religion is a personal choice and private. If someone believes in a God, they're religious. Doesn't need anyone else's approval or validation.
You defend Biden by saying "Biden is very Religious" and when I tell you that the Catholic church is denying him communion you reply by saying you are not defending him and start by promoting your extreme left theories of "All presidents are war criminals"....

Also, Its not me who wants to disown political leaders, its is THE CHURCH that wants to disown Biden.

If you want to focus all your attention on religion, homosexuality and abortion, I suggest that its best if we do it privately via PM, hit me up, and we'll chat.

You can slander religion and 'my 2000 year old book' all you want, but I'll repeat:

"When the debate is lost, slandering becomes the tool of the loser" -Socrates
 
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boji

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What are you on about?
Truths about history as you do not see it, which is fine. But drumming up a list of U.S. bad actions does make my point; facts we select serve our biases. In addition to your perspective, folks can use google to list the horrors and bloodshed of communism/totalitarianism throughout history as well, should their bias permit it.
 
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Dark1

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None of those are examples of death squads. US specifically created militia's that killed hundreds of thousands of supposed communists in South America. Today we'd call them terrorist groups.

We're also talking post-WW2. Not bringing up the US nuking Japan as an example of why they're the most evil country on the planet...

About your other comments on socialism: socialism is entirely compatible with capitalism. It's not rightwing ideologies that gave anyone universal healthcare, free education, or welfare. Subsidies, bailouts, public transport, public roads, all of it is socialism. Western society in its current form wouldn't exist without socialism. There is no exclusively capitalist or exclusively socialist society. The US is a mix. EU is a mix. China is a mix. Everywhere is a mix.

To equate socialism in 2021 with the USSR is lazy.
Reasoning with apologists for communist tyranny is really something I would never expect doing in 2021. USSR did not have to create death squads, they had an entire Red Army army plus Cheka units to do that. They murdered their own people (incl. left opposition like anarchists, Mensheviks...) even with chemical weapons (Tambov Rebellion, 1920-21; one of several such uprisings incl. the famous Kronstadt Rebellion). They simply labeled anyone who opposed them as counter-revolutionaries, and eliminated them in concentration camps or using, well, death squads, shooting thousands and thousands on the streets. Lenin even directly ordered public exemplary executions of peasants (kulaks), right in 1918 (for more, see Mass killings under communist regimes - Wikipedia). They simply continued this practice abroad, when exporting "communism", from the enslavement of Eastern Europe, to political and military campaigns in Asia (North Korea...), and later Africa (either directly or indirectly by supporting Marxist-Leninist terrorists, like the Red Terror in Ethiopia etc.) and Latin America. The military occupation of the Baltics and Poland, Winter War in Finland and so on. Countless dead and enslaved in the name of "communism".

Mixing welfare with socialism as a political system (defined by structural changes in society incl. social ownership, with profit motive either entirely or partially eliminated) is a popular argumentative bluff: "Now you have welfare, if you want more of the same, you need socialism". E.g. independent labor unions were always one of the first causalties of socialist revolutions leading to state capitalism models like the USSR.

What you call "mixed" is a democratic capitalism as practiced by most of the West, mixing social welfare, free market economy, and personal freedoms (like the freedom of speech we are practicing here, without fear we will end up before a "revolutionary tribunal"). For example the efforts of Czechoslovakian reformists during 1960s to transform the authoritarian and undemocratic society into a similar model (incl. personal freedoms like freedom of speech; labeled Democtratic Socialism; which would later inevitably collapse into Democratic Capitalism since socially-owned economy on a grand scale can not really co-exist with democracy), ended in 1968 with this: https://kafkadesk.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/czech-republic-soviet-invasion-remembrance.jpg
 
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