Gotta say , I find the Black Market now uninteresting and not exciting

[emrr]

Maybe we need to drive Ethan over the edge, and suggest keeping the formal new BM sales position, and another new swap meet section like the old BM?    Some of these swap/trade/have-a-spare-48R6 requests ought to fall under the free market category anyway. 

I'm all for a new formal electronics auction format to compete with ebay.  What we have could grow into something of force, if people will use it.  It's a positive in my book that the new BM funds forum maintenance.   

Isn't entropy grand?

 

[ruairioflaherty]

I haven't been posting very much lately, still browsing but less and less.  First thing I want to say is that Ethan does a fantastic job and is always motivated by what's best for the forum.  With that said I think all of the recent changes to the forum have been a failure.  My morning browse here has become tedious. 

The new BM format is stiff and is just enough of a barrier to entry to make it a hassle.  I have probably $2,000 worth of goodies that I need to offload soon. On the old format that would have been one big dynamic evolving thread with pics etc as I've done in the past.  Now it will need to be separate threads because of the pricing format.  I just can't be bothered even though I need the cash.

The addition of the new forums has also been something of a disaster.  A quick example - I'm not recording these days in my room, just mixing and mastering.  With that in mind I'm not interested in mic pres and don't go into that category, in the old way I would see a thread being bumped in the lab and investigate out of curiosity.

A key thing here is that most all of my learning here has taken place in a sideways manner, I learn about one thing while researching another.  I do not want a Walmart of information, I want a thrift store.

The old format for the forum worked really well.  Fraud on the old forum was very low as far as I could tell and I'd happily donate to a insurance scheme or fund to help, in the manner that I did for the people who were left down by Winston.

Last point - unless infinite growth and eventual self destruction is our goal we should not be listening to what newbies want.  No "super easy to find info", no wikis, no guarantees, no everything on instant demand.  Sometimes small is beautiful and perhaps we need to look at what we want to achieve as a community.

I'll probably appear ungrateful but hopefuly those who know me from my posts and giveaways over the years will understand where I'm coming from. This place used to be my favorite forum and I'd love it to be so again.

 

[rob_gould]

Last point - unless infinite growth and eventual self destruction is our goal we should not be listening to what newbies want.  No "super easy to find info", no wikis, no guarantees, no everything on instant demand.  Sometimes small is beautiful and perhaps we need to look at what we want to achieve as a community.

absolutely 100% this ^^^

 

[ruairioflaherty]

And just to pre-empt any comments on elistism or plans to exclude beginners, that is not my intention.  I was a beginner here once and still am in many ways with electronics.  As I newbie I found this place complicated, a little confusing but very very welcoming.  I wasn't spoon-fed but I was supported while I made a big mess trying to feed myself and that's exactly how it should be.  Some won't stick with it and that's ok, DIY electronics is very complicated and not everyone has the patience.  Let's not lower the bar too much.

Cheers,
Ruairi

 

[Nishmaster]

The addition of the new forums has also been something of a disaster.  A quick example - I'm not recording these days in my room, just mixing and mastering.  With that in mind I'm not interested in mic pres and don't go into that category, in the old way I would see a thread being bumped in the lab and investigate out of curiosity.

Wait, the stuff that's in the subforums isn't also in the main lab forum? Well, that seems awfully silly. I thought it was some sort of "tag" based subforum just to make navigating easier. Don't really think I like the concept.

I can't say I used the previous BM much (or this one for that matter) as it was rather congested and hard to follow, but I agree on the discussion issue. It definitely fostered discussion of the products in question.

-Matt

 

[0dbfs]

spoon-feeding only allowed when you are flicking it (full of peas, corn, or mashed-potatoes) across the room into a group of fellow-budding-engineers with extreme prejudice/anger/rebellion.


On another thought take a look at what happened over at PSW when they decided to make changes... Extreme Implosion due to "apparent-disregard" of mgmt.
These communities are all-volunteer... And apparently can be quite volatile once the smoke starts coming out.
That is but a momentary distraction though. We will regroup after the fall... And carry on... Building up from the rubble left behind.

Cheers,
jb

 

[mrclunk]

I agree with the genral vibe of this thread, the user experience has taken a nose dive since the recent changes, i though it was jsut me being a ludite but maybe not? Possibly to much all in one go.
I tend not to go in the project specific forums these days either, whereas before i'd probably check out e.g gssl support thread if i happened to come across it on my travels, perhaps i could help someone.

Also the Black market, free market business boggles me slightly. Really never saw any problem with it before, was a great resource for purchasing info and bargins, plus i think it was very clear what should be in the black or white markets. Now feel i should have voiced my opinion more at the time.
I know forum fees must be high and ethan does an amazing job here but perhaps there's other ways of forum funding?
Personally i wouldn't mind paying a subscription but can see that would put off new members or how about a 'server fees needed per month' graphic in a side bar to remind people to donate?
What ever happens i'm not going anywhere, i love this place. x

 

[ruairioflaherty]

On another thought take a look at what happened over at PSW when they decided to make changes... Extreme Implosion due to "apparent-disregard" of mgmt.
These communities are all-volunteer... And apparently can be quite volatile once the smoke starts coming out.
That is but a momentary distraction though. We will regroup after the fall... And carry on... Building up from the rubble left behind.

Let's not get too dramatic, the PSW implosion had many contributing factors, none of which apply in our case here. Again Ethan is doing his best for us, I just think we can't be all things to people.

 

[0dbfs]

I'm sure there were extenuating circumstances over at PSW...
There is a delicate balance though and the "contributing talent" is mostly there for their own benefit. So when the "owners" change things up... Things end up changing...
I agree that Ethan is doing a great job and has done a great job. I will continue to donate time/effort/and-cash because I love me some DIY and this has been a great place to learn.

I wear my DIY shirt with pride even if I didn't make it (next run of those needs to be kits w/options)!

Cheers,
jobu

 

[desol]

The "Project specific" sections are a good idea imo. I can't see anything bad about making something easier to find.

We do want to steer away from ebay and/or gearslutz type of mentality tho....farr away. And bring back the Guinness's. 

 

[grantlack]

A key thing here is that most all of my learning here has taken place in a sideways manner, I learn about one thing while researching another.  I do not want a Walmart of information, I want a thrift store.

Last point - unless infinite growth and eventual self destruction is our goal we should not be listening to what newbies want.  No "super easy to find info", no wikis, no guarantees, no everything on instant demand.  Sometimes small is beautiful and perhaps we need to look at what we want to achieve as a community.

i agree with some of the sentiments here, but i feel like the options are limited.  the forum doesn't have anything in place to stave off 'unlimited membership' or discourage bad actors to continue behaving poorly, and for better or worse i don't think it will... as much as i'd love to see a certain someone lose a week's posting privileges for being a recently egregious "spoon it to me" offender .  i don't think it would be unreasonable to see the more glaring posts get deleted for cleanup and a gentle hint though.  at least the better organization presumably weeds out drivel from those who read well but aren't searching appropriately, though that's obviously not an available metric.  there are still tools in place to get a thread gumbo, i find myself doing both.

 

[ruairioflaherty]

i agree with some of the sentiments here, but i feel like the options are limited.  the forum doesn't have anything in place to stave off 'unlimited membership' or discourage bad actors to continue behaving poorly, and for better or worse i don't think it will... as much as i'd love to see a certain someone lose a week's posting privileges for being a recently egregious "spoon it to me" offender .  i don't think it would be unreasonable to see the more glaring posts get deleted for cleanup and a gentle hint though.  at least the better organization presumably weeds out drivel from those who read well but aren't searching appropriately, though that's obviously not an available metric.  there are still tools in place to get a thread gumbo, i find myself doing both.

I'm not sure I follow everything you're saying but we don't need anything to stave off unlimited membership, we just need to decide whether constant growth is a good thing for this forum?  As for bad actors there are/were very few, I've avoided incidents with 3 different offenders because I didn't like their vibe, Toolboxmuziq being the most recent.  Common sense is really our best asset.

We also don't really need a formal mechanism to avoid a spoon feeding culture, the Gearslutz infractions system isn't needed here.  When someone wants all the work done for them we have two choices a)If they are pleasant we gently encourage them to do the reading/legwork b)if they are acting like an ass we ignore and they will leave.  That's kinda how it worked back in the day.

You don't change your approach to making fine wine because beginners find it hard to drink...

 

[emrr]

"show unread posts since last visit" has always been there.  It can do the sorting for you, if you don't like clicking all the subforums.  What we have now is more tools, more choices.  It's about habits.  You can also click the new posts icon for a subforum. 

It's a large stretch to suggest that 'compete with ebay' and 'be like ebay' are the same. 

 

[benlindell]

"show unread posts since last visit" has always been there.  It can do the sorting for you, if you don't like clicking all the subforums.  What we have now is more tools, more choices.  It's about habits.  You can also click the new posts icon for a subforum. 

With the change of everything I've started using this exclusively. I used to just browse through and see what was new, now I do so in 5 min of less, I'm not decided on if that's good or bad (probably good in the sense of getting other things in life done rather than perusing the site).

bviously things are going to grow and change but I feel like one of the things I really liked, the black market, has lost a lot of the "functionality" it had. Not only the discussion of products etc, but also in promoting sales threads, now after something is posted to the black market, there's no way to bump it (correct me if I'm wrong), I feel a lot of things are just going to sit there for 365 days and then expire.

 

[volker]

So it seems to me much could be helped by allowing to write answers in the black market section. Of course I am aware that this can be done on the specific page of the listing already, but it doesn't have that forum character to it.

 

[MagnetoSound]

I have to agree with the sentiments expressed here, and IMHO, with all due respect for Ethan and his good intentions ...

It wasn't broken. It is now. A mistake has been made.

I am saddened, and hope that it can be put back the way that it was.

Maybe a poll could be taken?

 

[bruno2000]

I haven't been posting very much lately, still browsing but less and less.  First thing I want to say is that Ethan does a fantastic job and is always motivated by what's best for the forum.  With that said I think all of the recent changes to the forum have been a failure.  My morning browse here has become tedious. 

The new BM format is stiff and is just enough of a barrier to entry to make it a hassle.  I have probably $2,000 worth of goodies that I need to offload soon. On the old format that would have been one big dynamic evolving thread with pics etc as I've done in the past.  Now it will need to be separate threads because of the pricing format.  I just can't be bothered even though I need the cash.

+1!  I'm in the process of moving my shop, and anticipate having lots of little odds and ends that "would" have been listed as one post in the old Black Market for the benefit of the members here.  I'd still like to do that without the eBay format hassle.
Just my $0.02.
Best,
Bruno2000

 

[emrr]

A poll was effectively taken with the threads in which the new system was requested.  I agree on missing the ability to list multiple things in one place.  While not like a 'shop', the old thread style sort of was.  But it had lots of abuse; people deleting listings as soon as they got the funds for something, etc.  Maybe there's a way to do multiple listings under one banner for one fee?  Restore some of what was lost within the new system?

 

[living sounds]

The new black market sucks and I'm not going to use it. Why? I don't want to be forced to use Paypal, pay for a listing (I usually list stuff in several forums since it's mostly specialised gear), it looks cluttered, it's unnecessary complicated and seems to have been implemented for the sole purpose of making money. Fail.

This forum is such a great place with so many immensly knowledgable folks offering advice for free and I hope at least that part of it stays that way.

 

[emrr]

Wow, so you missed the threads where it was requested?  They went on for awhile.  Its not cluttered if you learn how to look at it.  Skip the pic section on the landing page altogether.  Do a listing for 365 days for $1 is about making money?!  ....and you don't have to use PayPal...