Guns at the grocery store

[hodad]

Just like it is a fallacy to think that taking guns away from legal owners will stop all shootings.

Speaking of legal gun owners, there was this tidbit:

Atlanta police officers are issuing an urgent warning to gun owners.
According to a police spokesperson, since the start of the year, there have been 829 guns stolen out of vehicles in the City of Atlanta.

So maybe if legal gun owners weren't so careless/stupid with weapon storage, it'd stop some shootings.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Or maybe the police need to be more effective at preventing thefts. You are making the victims of gun theft the bad guys.

Indeed criminal behavior is rising, including breaking into cars.

JR

 

[hodad]

You are making the victims of gun theft the bad guys.

JR

They're idiots, whose irresponsible behavior puts guns in the hands of the real bad guys. You'd think that someone whose paranoia is heightened enough to compel them to carry a gun in the car would actually be paranoid enough to secure it properly when leaving the vehicle. As was pointed out later in the article I quoted from, simply putting the gun in the car's trunk will decrease the likelihood of gun theft, as many smash-and-grab types don't take the time to rifle through the trunk.

 

[groselicain]

They're idiots, whose irresponsible behavior puts guns in the hands of the real bad guys. You'd think that someone whose paranoia is heightened enough to compel them to carry a gun in the car would actually be paranoid enough to secure it properly when leaving the vehicle. As was pointed out later in the article I quoted from, simply putting the gun in the car's trunk will decrease the likelihood of gun theft, as many smash-and-grab types don't take the time to rifle through the trunk.

I'm going to have to side with Hodad here. I may not agree with the assignation of paranoia—but as someone with a concealed carry license, I will never leave a gun in a car unattended. It's simply irresponsible. Let's be reasonable here.

 

[living sounds]

How is reducing the number of police because of a handful of high profile arrest incidents working out for public safety?

I can imagine they have trouble finding new recruits. Who wants to wear a rediculous costume all day like the woman in the video?

 

[JohnRoberts]

I appreciate the Atlanta police warning that 829 guns were stolen from cars in Atlanta. So much for gun law purchase restrictions on those 800+ weapons, now in by definition, bad actor's hands.

I agree that gun ownership requires responsibility to secure your weapon(s) from unauthorized users, including children. I like the idea of guns that require a known owner's fingerprint to work but that technology is expensive and not very compatible with typical side arm mechanicals.

While the irresponsible gun owners are complicit, it does not change the fact that thieves stole their guns, overtly criminal acts.

I know at least a couple people who keep sidearms in their vehicles, inside the passenger compartment. Carrying your gun in the trunk defeats the purpose of readily available personal protection.

JR

PS: I do not like to share personal information like this but I do not carry a hand gun in my car. Even if traveling to a gun range I would keep any weapon unloaded and in my trunk. The laws here have recently expanded the right to carry a weapon in your car, considering the car an extension of your domicile.

 

[Whoops]

Coming from Europe and from Portugal a country were no-one has guns,
I can say that no one is killed around here by gunshot massacres in schools and no one gets killed in the Grocery store.

Only Police officers can have personal guns.
Private Security people can't have guns also.

I may say also that it's not because people don't have guns that they are not defended, as there's no guns around also the crime rate and violent crime rate are very low.

Basically there's almost no crime involving Guns so no one needs Guns to defend the crime.

I know that most of you fellow members in this forum are from the USA,
and I know our cultures are quite different, I know that some of you think it's the basis of being an American to have the right to have a Gun, but I would just like to tell you that no one needs a gun and having guns is the foundation for the violent crime rates and horrible massacres in the USA.

 

[ruffrecords]

The only solution is to get rid of the guns - from both the population and the general police. Of course you will still need an armed response group but that is all. Pop over to the UK and check it out.

Cheers

Ian

 

[Whoops]

The only solution is to get rid of the guns - from both the population and the general police. Of course you will still need an armed response group but that is all. Pop over to the UK and check it out.

Hi Ian I agree with you "the only solution is to get rid of the guns - from both the population", I think exactly the same

Although I don't agree to use the UK Police or the UK as an example, no disrespect meant to you, but I lived in the UK for 2 years while I was studying Audio Engineering in Manchester.
The UK Police is heavily armed, even if you have a general Police guy walking without a Gun that is just a facade for the heavily armed Police truck around the corner. I've seen that multiple times in Manchester, and the UK Police is highly rude and aggressive so from my personal experience (and I don't have any Crime record or any record at all) I wouldn't ever use the UK or UK Police as an example to any country in the World.

This is my recollection of UK Police in Manchester, during 2007/2008:




In memory of Jean Charles de Menezes, an innocent man shot 8 times by London Police.

Police kill innocent man​

Jean Charles de Menezes, the innocent Brazilian man killed by London police after being mistaken for a suicide bomber, was shot eight times at Stockwell Tube station last Friday, an inquest into his death was told.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2005/jul/29/menezes.markhonigsbaum
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Jean_Charles_de_Menezes

 

[user 37518]

The only solution is to get rid of the guns - from both the population and the general police. Of course you will still need an armed response group but that is all. Pop over to the UK and check it out.

Cheers

Ian

Ohh, the first world, you don't have to deal with this:

 

[JohnRoberts]

I'm going to have to side with Hodad here. I may not agree with the assignation of paranoia—but as someone with a concealed carry license, I will never leave a gun in a car unattended. It's simply irresponsible. Let's be reasonable here.

With concealed carry permits you don't need to leave it in the car.

I understand in my state they now accept concealed carry applications over the WWW. I can't imagine any scenario where I need to pack heat.

The only solution is to get rid of the guns - from both the population and the general police. Of course you will still need an armed response group but that is all. Pop over to the UK and check it out.

Cheers

Ian

I've popped over to the UK multiple times last century, your beers are better than most other countries.

Following intl news over the decades there has been any number of violent events in the UK. IIRC it was a school shooting that motivated the current gun restriction legislation. I think a similar law got passed that way in Oz. That's why media drags out the megaphones after every new shooting event. The trends in major cities are giving them new fodder to flog, but then they need to admit how badly managed the cities are.

Coming from Europe and from Portugal a country were no-one has guns,
I can say that no one is killed around here by gunshot massacres in schools and no one gets killed in the Grocery store.

Only Police officers can have personal guns.
Private Security people can't have guns also.

I may say also that it's not because people don't have guns that they are not defended, as there's no guns around also the crime rate and violent crime rate are very low.

Basically there's almost no crime involving Guns so no one needs Guns to defend the crime.

I know that most of you fellow members in this forum are from the USA,
and I know our cultures are quite different, I know that some of you think it's the basis of being an American to have the right to have a Gun, but I would just like to tell you that no one needs a gun and having guns is the foundation for the violent crime rates and horrible massacres in the USA.

I will take your word about Portugal, I have never been there. I have seen lots of weapons (including automatic) used by EU airport security.

I won't speculate about what you think. I haven't kept my personal thoughts secret.

I wish all this bad publicity would discourage the tide of illegal migrants walking across our unsecured southern border. Presumably they are escaping even worse conditions, certainly less free sh__ in central/south America. The border patrol as logged migrants from something like 75 countries that they know about, so hard to make sweeping generalities about migrants motivation.

We have long been a melting pot, welcoming people from around the world, but there is an orderly process not a free for all where people jump ahead of those legally waiting their turn in line.

I'm sure you guys have equally easy answers for this (challenge) too...

JR

 

[pucho812]

As a person who grew up in south Texas, The concept of guns at the grocery store, reminds me of my childhood. It wasn't uncommon to see a gun rack with a rifle or shotgun in the back of a truck at the store or even at school. The only thing that has changed since then is the value of life and the constant barrage of news and information. What used to be consequences for your actions are no longer seen as such. what used to be settling disagreements with a fist fight where you can live to fight another day has turned into just grab a piece and pop a cap. The news has done a good job of further dividing the issue, no different than anything else they do. they are now setting up to pit the two extreme views of guns vs no guns at each other and it will not end well.

 

[boji]

Reallocating funds to better serve public safety is what defund the police is about.

Ostensibly. I experienced an adrenaline junky cop go ham on me over where to pull over (guns at me, the whole thing), so I'm glad to see them getting checked by populace. However I don't see the overall positive results. Bold confrontation is quite a thing now too; fashionable and often treated as a responsibility. I'll bet 'time spent arguing with citizens' has increased hundredfold, all the while they are on the clock and not stopping crime elsewhere.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Ostensibly. I experienced an adrenaline junky cop go ham on me over where to pull over (guns at me, the whole thing), so I'm glad to see them getting checked by populace. However I don't see the overall positive results. Bold confrontation is quite a thing now too; fashionable and often treated as a responsibility. I'll bet 'time spent arguing with citizens' has increased hundredfold, all the while they are on the clock and not stopping crime elsewhere.

As a youth I got stopped more times than I can count by police while driving my loud souped up car. I learned early on to be courteous and polite.

The Los Angeles County District Attorney's Office will no longer prosecute a range of misdemeanor crimes, from resistingarrest to drug possession to making criminal threats, according to a memo issued this week by new DA George Gascon.

Encouraging people to resist arrest is not going to lead to good outcomes.

This modern trend is moving in the wrong direction for increased public safety.

Who in their right mind would sign up to be a police officer?

JR

PS: I've shared this before, but when stopped by police while driving at night, turn on your interior light and place both hands on your steering wheel, until the officer approaches and tells you what they want. There is no possible benefit from increasing the officer's stress level.

 

[hodad]

.
I learned early on to be courteous and polite.

Being white doesn't hurt either--a bit harder to learn than the courteous & polite thing.

 

[boji]

Being white doesn't hurt either--a bit harder to learn than the courteous & polite thing.

What I rarely hear discussed is the psychology of becoming a bad cop, where violence and danger is always present and part of the job. What happens to the brains of these public servants? Consider the folks at the MVA / DMV: have they ever been after our hearts and cheerfulness?
Over time, my hunch is many of these cops not only become callous, but seek out violent escalation so to achieve a cognitive baseline, to feel normal and alert. It may be that lots of them are chasing withdrawal symptoms like someone addicted to methamphetamines. If too many days go by where things haven't popped-off, mental fog, sluggishness, lack-of-awareness can creep in, which will get them killed.

In addition to the environmental, there's economic pressures, where rewards and revenue for booking and arresting is strongly incentivised. Hasn't the beat cop or traffic cop always been about maximising quota with least amount of effort (human nature), and appearing productive to peers and superiors? It may be the case that singling-out marginalized people in mixed-class environments comes from adaptation to market pressures. And yet over time, racial prejudices would arise (or be sustained) in parallel, if such types of thinking were of FOP merit/profit.

Where systems of policing have historically been (from their perspective) about precincts finding ways to improve their underfunded circumstances, more defunding will create the needed reform/results?

 

[JohnRoberts]

White privilege didn't get me out of any speeding tickets.

Being more courteous and polite won't make you white, but it will improve outcomes in potentially stressful situations. Enough police get shot and killed during routine traffic stops that they all are, or should be, alert for any unusual behavior.

Being polite and courteous is possible to learn... and more beneficial than what we're teaching kids today (CRT).

What I rarely hear discussed is the psychology of becoming a bad cop, where violence and danger is always present and part of the job. What happens to the brains of these public servants? Consider the folks at the MVA- have they ever been after our hearts and cheerfulness?
Over time, my hunch is many of these cops not only become callous, but seek out violent escalation so to achieve a cognitive baseline, to feel normal and alert. It may be that lots of them are chasing withdrawal symptoms like someone addicted to methamphetamines. If too many days go by where things haven't popped-off, mental fog, sluggishness, lack-of-awareness can creep in, which will get them killed.

In addition to the environmental, there's economic pressures, where rewards and revenue for booking and arresting is strongly incentivised. Hasn't the beat cop or traffic cop always been about maximising quota with least amount of effort (human nature), and appearing productive to peers and superiors? It may be the case that singling-out marginalized people in mixed-class environments comes from adaptation to market pressures. And yet over time, racial prejudices would arise in parallel, if such types of thinking were of fraternal merit/profit.

Where systems of policing have historically been (from their perspective) about precincts finding ways to improve their underfunded circumstances, more defunding will create the needed reform/results?

We had the DWB (driving while black) discussion here in the brewery years ago. It is a real thing, and some police departments out west incorporated race sensitivity into their training. It seems some of those same police departments have had a huge struggle maintaining public order for the last several years.

I am not optimistic about some of the high profile police reforms (cough) being discussed. It may be interesting to watch the NYC Mayor race as they have candidates from more than two sides of this police issue. NYC is not very representative of the whole country but perhaps typical of big cities, that are seeing rising violence and crime these days.

JR

 

[Whoops]

I will take your word about Portugal, I have never been there. I have seen lots of weapons (including automatic) used by EU airport security.

I don't know in other EU countries, but in Portugal only Police (the different Police forces) can legally carry guns.
Private Security or Airport Security (if they are not Police) can't carry any gun, neither a person like myself can ever can get a gun personal defense gun license. There's also no gun stores in the country besides the guns made for hunting, I don't know the names in English for these hunting guns but it's guns that don't use a bullet, they use those cartridges with a lot of small spheres inside.

This is Airport Security in Portugal:

 

[Whoops]

I was checking some numbers on firearm-related death rate by country,
The correlation between not having guns and no homicides is really really high

"firearm-related death rate per 100,000 population per year"
Country	Year	Total	Homicide	Suicide	Unintentional	Undetermined	Guns per 100 inhabitants
United Kingdom	2015	0.20	0.02	0.16	0.01	0.01	2.8
Portugal	2014	1.48	0.24	1.12	0.01	0.10	8.5
United States	2017	12.21	4.46	7.32	0.15	0.10	120.5

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

 

[user 37518]

I was checking some numbers on firearm-related death rate by country,
The correlation between not having guns and no homicides is really really high

"firearm-related death rate per 100,000 population per year"
Country	Year	Total	Homicide	Suicide	Unintentional	Undetermined	Guns per 100 inhabitants
United Kingdom	2015	0.20	0.02	0.16	0.01	0.01	2.8
Portugal	2014	1.48	0.24	1.12	0.01	0.10	8.5
United States	2017	12.21	4.46	7.32	0.15	0.10	120.5

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

the US has more guns than inhabitants.