Guns at the grocery store

[Whoops]

the US has more guns than inhabitants.

Yes,
it's pretty scary and crazy

 

[Brian Roth]

the US has more guns than inhabitants.

That makes some sense. I've known many USA gun owners who own waaay more than one gun.

Bri

 

[JohnRoberts]

I don't know in other EU countries, but in Portugal only Police (the different Police forces) can legally carry guns.
Private Security or Airport Security (if they are not Police) can't carry any gun, neither a person like myself can ever can get a gun personal defense gun license.

My recollections were from last century traveling to Frankfurt, Germany. The el al (Israeli) airline IIRC had security very visibly carrying automatic weapons. Hopefully you airport these days is less at risk (Israel has decades of history with airplane hijacking, and violent attacks).

There's also no gun stores in the country besides the guns made for hunting, I don't know the names in English for these hunting guns but it's guns that don't use a bullet, they use those cartridges with a lot of small spheres inside.

Those are called "shotguns" the small balls are "gun shot", or sometimes even smaller "bird shot" (for killing birds). Shot guns are not very precise, used mostly for close in fighting (if you believe Hollywood). Hunters use these for duck hunting or "trap" shooting clay pigeons.

These is Airport Security in Portugal:

I didn't take or keep any pictures, I hope you will take my word for it.

JR

 

[JohnRoberts]

That makes some sense. I've known many USA gun owners who own waaay more than one gun.

Bri

Guns are by definition smooth bore firearms. We had a saying back in the army... "this is my rifle and this is my gun, this is for killing and this is for fun" (accompanied by a crotch grab during the gun/fun mention).

I have one "gun", a BB gun with smooth bore that probably couldn't kill a squirrel even if I hit one by some extremely rare accident. My Gamo air rifle, made in Spain, uses a rifled barrel. It will and has dropped multiple squirrels in my yard.

I won't share any more but my personal protection unit also uses a rifled barrel.

I guess I am one of those gun crazy Americans.

Every one of my neighbors that I know of have several times more firearms than I do, but that is normal for small town MS.

JR

PS; When I grew up we had a 22 cal long rifle in the house. We had permission to shoot woodchucks who messed with my mother's garden. We were trained to respect firearms and use them responsibly.

 

[hodad]

Being polite and courteous is possible to learn... and more beneficial than what we're teaching kids today (CRT).

.....some police departments out west incorporated race sensitivity into their training. It seems some of those same police departments have had a huge struggle maintaining public order for the last several years.

Point A: can't we do both? A more honest accounting of American history, free from racist apologia, does not preclude the teaching of politesse & courtesy.

Point B: As the kids say, correlation does not imply causation.

Weird digression: Some years back I bought some surplus stuff from a police dept. in a semi-rural part of Georgia. Included were some half-broken digital voice recorders that still contained recordings of various police encounters. While a couple of the cops came off as schmucks, some seemed to be trying very hard to be reasonable and do a good job. But there were times where cops were stretched into doing work better left to social workers--just the sort of thing that "defund the police" is aimed at addressing.
Few cops are trained to deal with some of the stuff they're asked to deal with, and it's unfair to ask them to do it (and tends not to serve the folks in need of help very well either.) Taking a different approach to policing than the one we currently have in the US could very well make things better for police officers as well as for the people they're sworn to serve and protect.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Point A: can't we do both? A more honest accounting of American history, free from racist apologia, does not preclude the teaching of politesse & courtesy.

I was using CRT as shorthand for teaching youths to fear or despise the police, but IMO it is worse than that.

Point B: As the kids say, correlation does not imply causation.

yup, adults say that too. I do not suggest any causation, just coincidence that the most sensitive police departments get torn down by the anarchists.

Weird digression: Some years back I bought some surplus stuff from a police dept. in a semi-rural part of Georgia. Included were some half-broken digital voice recorders that still contained recordings of various police encounters. While a couple of the cops came off as schmucks, some seemed to be trying very hard to be reasonable and do a good job. But there were times where cops were stretched into doing work better left to social workers--just the sort of thing that "defund the police" is aimed at addressing.
Few cops are trained to deal with some of the stuff they're asked to deal with, and it's unfair to ask them to do it (and tends not to serve the folks in need of help very well either.) Taking a different approach to policing than the one we currently have in the US could very well make things better for police officers as well as for the people they're sworn to serve and protect.

How many times have I mentioned the gaps in dealing with mental health?

These individuals or situations should not be dealt with by waiting until they rise to the critical urgency to call the police and dispatch officers. They should be managed routinely ahead of time (24x7) through established health institutions (that coincidentally were defunded decades before they defunded the police).

We agree that there are mental health issues behind many police incidents, but the fix is not to put mental health workers in the cars with police officers, or instead of them... Lets address the root causes before they blow up... this too is an old topic I have discussed here before. Health privacy laws, fear of lawsuits for sharing too much mental health opinions, etc.

The police are the last resort that get saddled with the failures of the rest of society.

I worry that they are growing too weary to keep cleaning up our messes.

JR

PS; In a bit of a weird coincidence soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan were called upon to deal with matters unrelated to killing bad guys. I guess the buck stops with soldiers and cops... god bless them.

 

[hodad]

I was using CRT as shorthand for teaching youths to fear or despise the police, but IMO it is worse than that.
.

I don't think that's what CRT is, John. And I think Black parents, probably more than other parents in this country, have been teaching their kids to fear the police for many decades now. Probably some darker emotions than fear come into play as well.

 

[ruffrecords]

Whatever you think about how good or bad the UK police is, the fact is that annual gun related deaths in the UK are 0.23 per head of population and in the USA the figure is 12.2 - that is 50 times the UK rate. This must be directly related to the facts that regular citizens and police do not carry guns.

Gun Deaths By Country 2021

Cheers

Ian

 

[ruffrecords]

the US has more guns than inhabitants.

New Zealand has more sheep than inhabitants. Maybe there is a lesson there?

Cheers

Ian

 

[scott2000]

Kinda like all the elephants in this thread

 

[PermO]

Switserland also has a lot of guns, but it really lacks in the gun violence department.

So I guess it's not the guns, but the people.

I think the main problem the US has is drug related, so many mood altering drugs being pushed onto the people I'm not surprised someone occasionally freaks out high on pills and goes on a killing spree.

It's mainly a mental health problem would be my guess.
Combined with guns, that's a recipe for disaster.

 

[JohnRoberts]

I don't think that's what CRT is, John.

My understanding is that it isn't targeting police per se, but an overtly divisive race message.

And I think Black parents, probably more than other parents in this country, have been teaching their kids to fear the police for many decades now. Probably some darker emotions than fear come into play as well.

Ding, ding, ding... and many kids get into trouble (or worse) from resisting arrest and/or running away from police, fearing harm. Media feeds this narrative by amplifying the relatively rare police incidents.
====
This is purely anecdotal but up until several years ago when my knee failed me, I used to play pick up basketball at a health club gym in a nearby city. This was a nice gym in the basement of a hospital parking garage. Parents paid the membership dues so their HS age kids could play in a safe place instead of the free outdoor basketball courts. I didn't see color on the basketball court (other than the black players were routinely better than white players) but many of these kids did see color, being extremely distrustful of me until they got to know me.

I have noticed some kids in my small town neighborhood being unusually polite, as if they had been coached to do so. These interactions seemed unnatural, but better than the alternative.

JR

[update- I don't know if this was the same police force but the entire Portland,OR riot squad (50 officers) resigned en masse, over one being indicted for striking a photographer who was identified as an activist and participant in the riot where a government building was set afire by a petrol bomb. This is a mess. [/update]

 

[Whoops]

Switserland also has a lot of guns, but it really lacks in the gun violence department.

Not a lot compared to the US. Actually quite far from the US numbers

 

[Whoops]

Whatever you think about how good or bad the UK police is, the fact is that annual gun related deaths in the UK are 0.23 per head of population and in the USA the figure is 12.2 - that is 50 times the UK rate.

This must be directly related to the facts that regular citizens and police do not carry guns.

I completely agree

 

[crazydoc]

Switserland also has a lot of guns, but it really lacks in the gun violence department.

Not a lot compared to the US. Actually quite far from the US numbers

Even so, says a lot about the lack of mental stability in a percentage of the US population, apparently not evident in the Swiss. Other societies may have this same lack, but don't have the efficiency of firearms to kill large groups of people. Lots of crazy people with lots of guns = USA.

 

[hodad]

My understanding is that it isn't targeting police per se, but an overtly divisive race message.

Ding, ding, ding... and many kids get into trouble (or worse) from resisting arrest and/or running away from police, fearing harm. Media feeds this narrative by amplifying the relatively rare police incidents.

I might be wrong, John, but I don't think you've ever been black. I'm not sure that I'm buying your narrative that incidents with Black citizens and US police are all that rare. They may not all be serious, but I don't think they're at all uncommon--just as you acknowledged earlier that DWB is a real thing, there are lots of little ways that police harass Black people that build fear and resentment.

I find it worthy of note that you seem more than happy to blame Black citizens for being scared, and yet you have so much sympathy for the cops and how hard their job is(while also being unwilling to admit that having folks with different skill sets to help with certain aspects of their job might actually be a good thing), and you also seem more than happy to absolve the gun lobby and the Republican politicians who support them for their role in putting more guns in the streets and ensuring that getting a gun is easier than ever, and even loosening concealed-carry laws in some states.

And you seem happy to blame the media for ginning up fear of cops among Blacks, while ignoring the fact that they gin up fear of Scary Black People that drives people to buy more and more guns(and carry them in their cars, and get them stolen because no one ever taught them to be responisble with a gun, etc.)

 

[rob_gould]

What I rarely hear discussed is the psychology of becoming a bad cop, where violence and danger is always present and part of the job. What happens to the brains of these public servants? Consider the folks at the MVA / DMV: have they ever been after our hearts and cheerfulness?
Over time, my hunch is many of these cops not only become callous, but seek out violent escalation so to achieve a cognitive baseline, to feel normal and alert. It may be that lots of them are chasing withdrawal symptoms like someone addicted to methamphetamines. If too many days go by where things haven't popped-off, mental fog, sluggishness, lack-of-awareness can creep in, which will get them killed.

Agree with this, and it ties in with my (limted) experience with police people I've known personally.

When all you have is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail...

 

[JohnRoberts]

I might be wrong, John, but I don't think you've ever been black.

I'm still white, but studies of the genome looking for significant differences between black and white do not find much. Evolution rewarded darker skin pigmentation for humans who evolved near the equator.

I'm not sure that I'm buying your narrative that incidents with Black citizens and US police are all that rare.

"Rare" is not an objective term, my subjective sense is that the frequency of these are blown out of proportion by news media.

The racial grievance industry used to be a modest club (Jesse Jackson et all) who would extort treasure from big business when sentiment swung their way. Now we have a much larger movement, claiming much larger grievance. While the courts are already blocking some the crazier recent attempts at reparations via federal loan forgiveness.

They may not all be serious, but I don't think they're at all uncommon--just as you acknowledged earlier that DWB is a real thing, there are lots of little ways that police harass Black people that build fear and resentment.

There are clearly some bad cops, just like any other profession. My judgement and experience is that the vast majority are protecting "all" citizens. I do not expect them to start their shift looking for black people to harass, but what should be routine interactions can turn bad if young people do not follow instructions, or worse run away, (or even worse like we see on TV).

I find it worthy of note that you seem more than happy to blame Black citizens for being scared,

No I blame black parents, and black leaders. I still can't forget ex-President Barack Obama accusing a Cambridge police officer of racism from his bully pulpit without an ounce of investigation. That officer turned out to be a poster boy for good police race relations. The ex-president had to walk back his thoughless charges with a rose garden beer summit. But the damage was already done and there are far more examples. (It is getting worse IMO).

and yet you have so much sympathy for the cops and how hard their job is

true

(while also being unwilling to admit that having folks with different skill sets to help with certain aspects of their job might actually be a good thing),

I am surely repeating myself, I appreciate that they are routinely dealing with non-police issues.

Just to be clear, by the time a mental health issue rises to command police attention it is too late for an easy fix. Putting a social worker in the back seat, or the front seat is not the right solution. We need to address the failures of the mental health system that lets these folks fall through the cracks.

and you also seem more than happy to absolve the gun lobby and the Republican politicians who support them for their role in putting more guns in the streets and ensuring that getting a gun is easier than ever, and even loosening concealed-carry laws in some states.

I still think increasing (legal) gun sales is a symptom of the the problem (failed maintenance of law and order). Of course illegal gun sales, already illegal, should be stopped (The mayor of Chicago is now asking for Federal help, after previously rejecting federal help. Perhaps politics were involved). As I recall NYC shut down the street gun crime squad who were focussed on getting guns off the street, in response to the defund police movement. I haven't followed this very closely but I think they brought the unit back but gave it a different name to keep the harpies off the scent.

And you seem happy to blame the media for ginning up fear of cops among Blacks,

yes... but but I don't think that many people watch news.

while ignoring the fact that they gin up fear of Scary Black People that drives people to buy more and more guns(and carry them in their cars, and get them stolen because no one ever taught them to be responisble with a gun, etc.)

That's a mouthful... At least some people are buying guns because they are seeing violent crime encroaching on their formerly safe neighborhoods. I expect you local news is talking about the Buck head situation. I don't watch local news, or much mainstream media.

If somebody has their gun stolen, they should be liable for any crimes committed with that gun. Unlikely to ever be prosecuted, but maybe karma will handle that.

JR

PS: I still don't argue with people about what I think... you seem to be putting a lot of words/thoughts into my mouth

 

[hodad]

"racial grievance industry"--I'm guessing you don't detect the strong stink of racism coming off that term.

I'm out.

 

[Gold]

No I blame black parents, and black leaders. I still can't forget ex-President Barack Obama accusing a Cambridge police officer of racism from his bully pulpit without an ounce of investigation. That officer turned out to be a poster boy for good police race relations. The ex-president had to walk back his thoughless charges with a rose garden beer summit. But the damage was already done and there are far more examples. (It is getting worse IMO).

[/QUOTE]
You mean the cop who arrested the black Harvard professor on his own porch for ‘looking suspicious’? I wouldn't use that as an example of good policing. I remember them having a beer. Making nice always helps but I’d hardly call it walking back anything. I think it was more for the photo op the President and a Harvard professor being black and the lowly cop being white.