Headphones for Mixing and Mastering

[Gold]

I have absolutely no doubt that smartphones speakers need processing ; it's a physical necessity. I was concerned with headphones output.

I don’t use bluetooth earbuds so I can’t test the iPhone 11. The iphone 7 had a heaphone jack and the Senn 600’s sounded good. Not as good as my dedicated headphone amp but entirely serviceable.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

I don’t use bluetooth earbuds so I can’t test the iPhone 11. The iphone 7 had a heaphone jack and the Senn 600’s sounded good. Not as good as my dedicated headphone amp but entirely serviceable.

TBH I don't own any Apple products, and the earbuds that were delivered with my Samsung have never left the cardboard box.
The only experience I have is listening casually when the grand kids want to share their music. I always have a sense of hearing something that has no sense of depth, only laterality, and overly inflated.
I guess listening on headphones has a learning curve, that I"m not ready to invest in.
OTOH, I've used headphone as a musician for more than 50 years, and I have no issue with it, I just don't expect it to sound "real".

 

[Gold]

I wouldn't want to master anything on headphones although I'm sure I could do it with practice. I have noticed a lot of mixes that sound like they were mixed on headphones. Stuff with no center image to speak of. Everything is stereo hard panned. Even mono sounding stuff has some sort of stereo effect on it.

 

[FIX]

Did someone step on your tail?
VSX is an ecosystem that includes software destined to resolve the deficiencies of headphone listening, in particular the absence of intrinsic cross-talk and room effects. That is precisely the subject of this thread.
I suggest that a mix done with that kind of monitoring should be listened to with a similar set-up, should the listener want to use headphones.

You obviously haven't listened to them. They are Like being in the room with the speakers. I have been in 3 of the rooms and compared them to the VSX. They are so unreal it's not funny. They have image, they also, with the soffit mounted mains, they also have height. you can't fake that.

The software is not "designed to resolve the..." It is an actual HRTF type room model that no other company has been able to capture correctly.
There are several number one hits that have been mixed 100% with VSX. Jeff Washington "Don't Give a Damn About Me" was at #1 on the R&B Hot 100 after only 9 days. He said "100% VSX".

I would suggest that anyone that does not have a good room, try these, they will start you on a path that you will be very happy with. They are literally $299. Jay Baumgardner, owner of NRG. "I can start a mix on the headphones and then come into the studio and finish it and it really just translates spot on..."

 

[MicMaven]

Regarding headphones choice I would pick up phones with a response curve near Harman curve.

That does not work for me, because it is skewed for bass head consumers who like artificial bass tones. The bass no longer sounds punchy, tonal and natural - just thick and rumbling. No Harman Curve here.

ATH-M50x are very good phones for tracking and could be used for mixing as well,

I sold my ATH-MX50 headphones with no regrets. To my ears, they are heavy handed high and low, bass heavy and lacking sufficient sizzle in the high frequencies. I enjoy jazz recordings where the snare and cymbals are crisp and just sizzle. I also sold all of my so called "audiophile" headphones, such as the ATH-AD900x because they lack sufficient bass and are sibilant to a fault with far too much sizzle; to the point where it was uncomfortable. Something in the middle that sounds natural as if I am on stage with the musicians, and not in the audience listening through a PA, works for me. I recently acquired a pair of Austrian Audio headphones, but the jury is still out deliberating. Time will tell.

I was in a couple of really lousy bands in a former life. The take away is, I sort of know what the instruments really sound like in on stage, in person, up close and personal. I cannot abide fake, heavy bass or artificially excessive treble, and (while I am on a roll) typically dislike heavy compression and other effects. I want to hear the instruments in the raw, as they sound onstage like during a live concert. Imagine listening to a small classical ensemble at a reasonable distance in a proportionally appropriate room. I want the recording to be as real as possible, matching the sound, including the ambience of the venue, and trick me into thinking I was there at the time. I want my speakers and headphones to match the recording. (Impossible, for sure, but I will accept the closest approximation I can get.)

Just MY take ... James - K8JHR

 

[johnsonic]

Before you make cracks and comments, try them first. You can't form an opinion until you do. I helped design them, and several of my best mixes were using them 100%.

I was wicked skeptical but am now a believer. I can't afford to treat my room and get boutique monitors. I do have a good selection of mid-range headphones, but if the question here is "headphones for mixing and mastering" I need to say VSX is where it's at. You get perfectly treated rooms with great speakers plus a number of headphones without room emulations that are mentioned in this thread.

And yes - you can even listen in an Audiophile room if that's your bag.

What I've found so useful is to sweep through a bunch of rooms & headphones, and if the high-end sounds weird on a bunch of them, I can adjust. If the low end sounds like junk on 4 out of 8 rooms, fix it up. Often don't even hear a difference in the mix on the room I was initially using.

I was so vehemently skeptical and now am now a fan, just want to get the finer points across. I'm also not a pro but do a fair amount of mixing, so take that for what it's worth. Try'em out and return them if they don't work for you.

That said, my previous favorite headphones for mixing and mastering was a pair of Sennheiser earbuds I got in 2009 and lost about a dozen times. Everything sounded good on other playback systems afterward. Forgot the model number. Lost them for the last time about five years ago, I know they are kicking around here someplace!

 

[abbey road d enfer]

You obviously haven't listened to them.

Indeed. I never claimed I had. On the contrary.
And you obviously haven't understood what I wrote.

 

[kags]

So, don't you think headphone listeners should have this type of processing at their end? Maybe they unknowingly do...

I don't doubt it, and you have undoubtedly evaluated the difficulties and taken the necessary steps.

There are companies, including Sonarworks, producing consumer headphone correction software. SoundID allows consumers to store their headphone correction profiles in their Spotify accounts. That works great as long as the listener uses the same phones all the time. It would be terrible if that profile were inadvertently applied to a car stereo, for example.

In general, mixing on phones or speakers that match the Harman or Sonarworks target curve ensures a mix that will match the listening preferences of the majority of listeners. Both Harman and Sonarworks have studied the listening tastes of hundreds of thousands of listeners to refine their target curves.

The same goes for tuning mix rooms. If I tune a monitor system to an accepted target curve (modal problems aside), the clients are almost always completely satisfied. Some personalization may be preferred to make up for listening distance, tweeter/horn type, and listening level, but in general there is a target curve that sounds "right" to most experienced listeners.

Now, don't get me started on multichannel monitor systems, let alone their binaural representations...

 

[kags]

I wouldn't want to master anything on headphones although I'm sure I could do it with practice. I have noticed a lot of mixes that sound like they were mixed on headphones. Stuff with no center image to speak of. Everything is stereo hard panned. Even mono sounding stuff has some sort of stereo effect on it.

I find mastering on headphones to be easier than mixing on headphones for the reasons you mentioned. In speakers, center-panned information floats in front of the listener, between the speakers. In headphones, center-panned info sits between your ears. It's difficult to get a sense of front to back space and it's even difficult to get an appropriate volume level for lead instruments in headphones. I find plugins like CanOpener helpful to achieve the impression of speaker panning when using headphones.

Quite a few mastering engineers that I know have become accustomed to working solely on headphones, Usually it starts for practical reasons, like wanting to sneak in some work at the kitchen table, and then the realization happens that the headphone masters are very close or sometimes better than speaker versions.

I enjoy listening to speakers, but sometimes working on phones gets the work done more effectively, though with less enjoyment during the process.

 

[Gold]

I know some ME’s who use headphones. I think Glenn Schick was the first to go public. It’s hard to take the lathe and the tape machines to the beach so I’m not going to put in the time to figure it out.

 

[Whoops]

It’s hard to take the lathe and the tape machines to the beach so I’m not going to put in the time to figure it out.

Come over here Paul and I will help you out on that.
I will pay you for sure some Mojitos in the Beach while you cut some lacquer.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

There are companies, including Sonarworks, producing consumer headphone correction software. SoundID allows consumers to store their headphone correction profiles in their Spotify accounts. That works great as long as the listener uses the same phones all the time. It would be terrible if that profile were inadvertently applied to a car stereo, for example.

I fully agree. All the people I know around me who are not in the audio biz have absolutely no idea of what a headphone correction software is, though they probably use one, unknowingly. I believe Apple devices have some kind of it, probably tuned to their own earbuds, which also probably forces other h/p manufacturers to target the same response.

Both Harman and Sonarworks have studied the listening tastes of hundreds of thousands of listeners to refine their target curves.

As I wrote earlier, it's a moving target, since it fuels its own trends. It's a vicious circle that it is time to stop.
It's estimated that 22% of 18-20 years old will suffer from hearing deficiencies.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

I find mastering on headphones to be easier than mixing on headphones for the reasons you mentioned.

I believe you mean "I find mastering on headphones speakers to be easier than mixing on headphones for the reasons you mentioned.
So do I; immensely.

In speakers, center-panned information floats in front of the listener, between the speakers. In headphones, center-panned info sits between your ears. It's difficult to get a sense of front to back space and it's even difficult to get an appropriate volume level for lead instruments in headphones.

+1

I find plugins like CanOpener helpful to achieve the impression of speaker panning when using headphones.

Never been motivated enough to try it.

Quite a few mastering engineers that I know have become accustomed to working solely on headphones, Usually it starts for practical reasons, like wanting to sneak in some work at the kitchen table, and then the realization happens that the headphone masters are very close or sometimes better than speaker versions.

Of course, it is probably better mastering on headphones with a good correction software than on a mediocre pair of speakers in an poorly treated room.
I can certainly understand why it appeals to bedroom studios, but I fail to see the point for a renowned ME.
I come from a time where the equipment, and particularly the speakers and room were as fundamental as the ME's competence. in the customer's motivation to work with.

 

[mhelin]

When reading on people's various opinions on specific cans I come to conclusion that many of them already must have some kind of hearing loss...

 

[kags]

I believe you mean "I find mastering on headphones speakers to be easier than mixing on headphones for the reasons you mentioned.
So do I; immensely.

I actually meant what I typed, but I appreciate your sentiment, as well. I had a client in today who I was mastering a couple songs for and he listened on my speakers for a while and then listened on my headphones and remarked how closely the balances and tonality matched between them. Not a bedroom studio and not a novice producer or ME. Both of us have decades of successful careers behind us.

 

[kags]

I come from a time where the equipment, and particularly the speakers and room were as fundamental as the ME's competence. in the customer's motivation to work with.

This ^ 1 million percent!

 

[Gold]

Come over here Paul and I will help you out on that.
I will pay you for sure some Mojitos in the Beach while you cut some lacquer.

View attachment 110184

I don’t mind keeping work and play separate. I like studios that look like workspaces. I’m not into making a studio feel like a living room.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

I actually meant what I typed,

OK, I didn't read well. Mastering vs. mixing. Yes, i agree. The only time I use cans (except as a musician) is when cleaning up tracks and fine tuning matering.

but I appreciate your sentiment, as well. I had a client in today who I was mastering a couple songs for and he listened on my speakers for a while and then listened on my headphones and remarked how closely the balances and tonality matched between them.

I understand that using Canopener makes all the difference.

Not a bedroom studio and not a novice producer or ME.

I didn't suggest that.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

When reading on people's various opinions on specific cans I come to conclusion that many of them already must have some kind of hearing loss...

Sad but true. there's a big campaign now for people going to the audiometrist for free. Kids that are diagnosed with hearing loss either deny it or count on science/surgery to solve the problem.

 

[Whoops]

I’m not into making a studio feel like a living room.

Me neither,
But having an inspiring and beautiful environment to work in affects directly in a very positive way the quality and creativity of the outcome. The Beach works great for me

I’m not in the “vampire working in a cave” genre