Matador
Well-known member
Your honor, I rest my case. ;Dpucho812 said:
impeachment stupidity
- Thread starter Bo Deadly
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pucho812
Well-known member
Matador said:
how so? your case is flawed, had el cheat done what she had done I would be just as angry.
Bo Deadly
Well-known member
I just read up on the issue w/ Joe Biden's son Hunter that Rump is citing in defense of the Ukraine scandal so here's what I found out:
Ukraine removed president Yanukovych in 2014 for corruption and for being a puppet of Russia who backed his election with the help of non-other than Rumps former campaign manager Paul Manafort (aka "that's what I sai - I didn - that's what he sai - that's obvious what the our position is" guy). Yeah, Manafort helped Russia install a puppet president. Do you see a pattern?
Anyways, they removed Yanukovych but many of his corrupt cronies remained. In particular prosecutor general Viktor Shokin. So the corruption persisted. People resigned in protest and claimed that Shokin was significantly responsible. The IMF threatened to withhold 40 billion in loans if they didn't reform. A month later Joe Biden went to Ukraine in March 2016 and threatened to withhold 1 billion if they didn't remove Shokin. This is where Biden's son comes in ...
When Joe Binden was still Vice President, his son Hunter Biden worked on the board of a Ukrainian oil and gas company called Burisma. Taking advantage of the awkward facts that Hunter has no experience with the oil and gas industry and that he happens to be the US VP's son, Shokin claimed that he was being removed because he was investigating Hunter and Burisma regarding money laundering. There has since been no evidence that Hunter was ever under investigation. Ukraine officials have said that Hunter did nothing wrong and that the potential money laundering referenced by Shokin actually took place before Hunter joined Burisma.
So it seems to me that Shokin was corrupt and chummy with Rump's clan by virtue of being Russian puppets and used the coincidence of Biden's son to retaliate for being removed.
I pieced this together from several sources but I think factcheck.org is probably the most trustworthy:
https://www.factcheck.org/2019/09/trump-twists-facts-on-biden-and-ukraine/
Ukraine removed president Yanukovych in 2014 for corruption and for being a puppet of Russia who backed his election with the help of non-other than Rumps former campaign manager Paul Manafort (aka "that's what I sai - I didn - that's what he sai - that's obvious what the our position is" guy). Yeah, Manafort helped Russia install a puppet president. Do you see a pattern?
Anyways, they removed Yanukovych but many of his corrupt cronies remained. In particular prosecutor general Viktor Shokin. So the corruption persisted. People resigned in protest and claimed that Shokin was significantly responsible. The IMF threatened to withhold 40 billion in loans if they didn't reform. A month later Joe Biden went to Ukraine in March 2016 and threatened to withhold 1 billion if they didn't remove Shokin. This is where Biden's son comes in ...
When Joe Binden was still Vice President, his son Hunter Biden worked on the board of a Ukrainian oil and gas company called Burisma. Taking advantage of the awkward facts that Hunter has no experience with the oil and gas industry and that he happens to be the US VP's son, Shokin claimed that he was being removed because he was investigating Hunter and Burisma regarding money laundering. There has since been no evidence that Hunter was ever under investigation. Ukraine officials have said that Hunter did nothing wrong and that the potential money laundering referenced by Shokin actually took place before Hunter joined Burisma.
So it seems to me that Shokin was corrupt and chummy with Rump's clan by virtue of being Russian puppets and used the coincidence of Biden's son to retaliate for being removed.
I pieced this together from several sources but I think factcheck.org is probably the most trustworthy:
https://www.factcheck.org/2019/09/trump-twists-facts-on-biden-and-ukraine/
Phrazemaster
Well-known member
Why is the T silent? President Rump?Gold said:
Currently the House has started an impeachment inquiry, based mostly on the latest information (incomplete as it is) that a government Intelligence agent filed a complaint regarding Trump and office abuse, this complaint process cannot be partisan and it cannot be about policy since it must go to the DNI, who by law must investigate the whistleblower complaint to see if it has merit.
The current DNI is a Trump appointee...he is not some leftover Obama guy he is someone trump hand picked to be the Director of National Intelligence...he reviewed the complaint saw that it met all the applicable laws as a valid and URGENT national security issue...by law he has 7 days to turn it over to the appropriate committee of Congress,which is headed by Adam Schiff...but for some reason the white house and apparently the DOJ got involved and stopped the whistle blower complaint from being turned over to the committee (which also includes Gop members)...this in itself is a violation of the law and completely new territory for our government...what do you do when the department that is supposed to ENFORCE law deliberately violates clear and unequivocal procedure?
The WH and DOJ have no business withholding a valid complaint against the President, it is a breach of the separation of powers, the very whistleblower statue is designed to stop this very thing from happening, and Schiff would not even have known about it had not the DNI wrote him a formal letter saying as much.
The DNI is in a tough spot...he cannot really afford to piss off the WH or the DOJ, but by law he should have handed over the complaint.
Now a lot of media outlets (and GOP/Trump loyalist) are saying the issue is a phone call to the Prez of the Ukraine between him and Trump...but no one except the DNI and whoever else has seen the complaint knows the substance of it, so far it has not been turned over to congress, BUT the whistleblowers lawyer has informed Schiff/Congress that the complain is not limited to 1 phone call it was a series of events that triggered the whistle blower...more than one phone call.
Now here's the impeachable marchland...Trump had used the office of Budget to withhold money from the Ukraine that Congress had apportioned to them...and apparently (hearsay at this point but he has basically admitted to as much in his media interviews) was using holding back the funds to pressure the Prez of Ukraine to investigate Biden and son...when word got out, he released the money PLUS another 140 million that no one seems to understand the purpose for...
It is illegal to recieve any kind of foreign aid or benefit to help you in an American election...very clear law about that, it is also against the law to pressure a foreign government to dig up dirt on a political opponent by withholding funding that has been apportioned by Congress...these are known as "high crimes and misdemeanors"...it is also against the law to request a foreign government tamper or influence an American election...
These are things that Trump has pretty much suggested he did in a round about way...Rudy Giuliani, who is currently functioning as Trumps personal lawyer has also been very much involved in trying to get the Ukraine to start an investigation into Biden and son...
There is a point where Congress has no choice but to start impeachment inquiries and gets the ball rolling...it is a very big ball and takes a lot of time to get it going...but Trump basically just kinda went on TV and dared them by admitting that he DID talk to the Prez of Ukraine about Biden...but thats not what the whistle blower complaint is, we don't know what it is because the wrong branch of our government is in possession of it and legally they have no say in it...
Trump has now said he will release the transcripts of the phone call...but that is not the same as releasing the complaint to the appropriate department...
There is one other recourse the whistleblower can take and that is to appear before the COngressional Committee in a closed door session...but that is basically ending the career of the whistleblower and potentially exposing them to other retaliation, which by law is not supposed to happen...Adam Schiff is walking a very humane and conscientious line here by trying to do his Congressional duty without destroying the system...its the WH and DOJ who are rogue here...
This whole situation is outside the bounds of what the framers of the Constitution foresaw...
Without putting to fine a point on it, it really is a constitutional crisis and our democracy is at stake...if there are not viable checks and balances in our government it is not a republic, it is a lopsided fiat.
An impeachment inquiry turns up the heat on the parts of our government that are operating outside of the law.
While it is true that the Senate probably will not agree to impeach Trump (it takes both Congress and Senate) since they have a GOP majority, they will still be forced to vote Yes or NO on the articles that Congress presents to them...if Congress plays its cards right (currently Pelosi has asked SIX different committees to draw up articles) then each and every GOP and Democrat Senator and COngressman will be in the record for "yes" or "no" regarding LEGAL abuses that Trump and party are guilty of...they know it can't simply be partisan or policy issues...it must be impeachable offenses and currently Trump has checked more boxes than any other President in history...
Why does this matter if the GOP controls the Senate? Well because there is an election coming next year...and there are enough vulnerable GOP positions that its possible to completely decimate the Senate...if the democrats win control of the Senate the firth thing they will do is complete the impeachment process and remove not only Trump but every person he has appointed...expect Barr to be impeached and Kavanaugh as well...controlling both the House and the Senate would be the end of a lot of republican careers...
SOOOO....if they decide to go along with Pelosi...its possible the blood bath won't be so bad.
I don't expect Trump to last that long though...he's in very bad health...mentally he is struggling and he hates opposition, he hates being told what to do...he will try to work out a deal with Pelosi which is th emost probable outcome because the GOP will force him to...
The current DNI is a Trump appointee...he is not some leftover Obama guy he is someone trump hand picked to be the Director of National Intelligence...he reviewed the complaint saw that it met all the applicable laws as a valid and URGENT national security issue...by law he has 7 days to turn it over to the appropriate committee of Congress,which is headed by Adam Schiff...but for some reason the white house and apparently the DOJ got involved and stopped the whistle blower complaint from being turned over to the committee (which also includes Gop members)...this in itself is a violation of the law and completely new territory for our government...what do you do when the department that is supposed to ENFORCE law deliberately violates clear and unequivocal procedure?
The WH and DOJ have no business withholding a valid complaint against the President, it is a breach of the separation of powers, the very whistleblower statue is designed to stop this very thing from happening, and Schiff would not even have known about it had not the DNI wrote him a formal letter saying as much.
The DNI is in a tough spot...he cannot really afford to piss off the WH or the DOJ, but by law he should have handed over the complaint.
Now a lot of media outlets (and GOP/Trump loyalist) are saying the issue is a phone call to the Prez of the Ukraine between him and Trump...but no one except the DNI and whoever else has seen the complaint knows the substance of it, so far it has not been turned over to congress, BUT the whistleblowers lawyer has informed Schiff/Congress that the complain is not limited to 1 phone call it was a series of events that triggered the whistle blower...more than one phone call.
Now here's the impeachable marchland...Trump had used the office of Budget to withhold money from the Ukraine that Congress had apportioned to them...and apparently (hearsay at this point but he has basically admitted to as much in his media interviews) was using holding back the funds to pressure the Prez of Ukraine to investigate Biden and son...when word got out, he released the money PLUS another 140 million that no one seems to understand the purpose for...
It is illegal to recieve any kind of foreign aid or benefit to help you in an American election...very clear law about that, it is also against the law to pressure a foreign government to dig up dirt on a political opponent by withholding funding that has been apportioned by Congress...these are known as "high crimes and misdemeanors"...it is also against the law to request a foreign government tamper or influence an American election...
These are things that Trump has pretty much suggested he did in a round about way...Rudy Giuliani, who is currently functioning as Trumps personal lawyer has also been very much involved in trying to get the Ukraine to start an investigation into Biden and son...
There is a point where Congress has no choice but to start impeachment inquiries and gets the ball rolling...it is a very big ball and takes a lot of time to get it going...but Trump basically just kinda went on TV and dared them by admitting that he DID talk to the Prez of Ukraine about Biden...but thats not what the whistle blower complaint is, we don't know what it is because the wrong branch of our government is in possession of it and legally they have no say in it...
Trump has now said he will release the transcripts of the phone call...but that is not the same as releasing the complaint to the appropriate department...
There is one other recourse the whistleblower can take and that is to appear before the COngressional Committee in a closed door session...but that is basically ending the career of the whistleblower and potentially exposing them to other retaliation, which by law is not supposed to happen...Adam Schiff is walking a very humane and conscientious line here by trying to do his Congressional duty without destroying the system...its the WH and DOJ who are rogue here...
This whole situation is outside the bounds of what the framers of the Constitution foresaw...
Without putting to fine a point on it, it really is a constitutional crisis and our democracy is at stake...if there are not viable checks and balances in our government it is not a republic, it is a lopsided fiat.
An impeachment inquiry turns up the heat on the parts of our government that are operating outside of the law.
While it is true that the Senate probably will not agree to impeach Trump (it takes both Congress and Senate) since they have a GOP majority, they will still be forced to vote Yes or NO on the articles that Congress presents to them...if Congress plays its cards right (currently Pelosi has asked SIX different committees to draw up articles) then each and every GOP and Democrat Senator and COngressman will be in the record for "yes" or "no" regarding LEGAL abuses that Trump and party are guilty of...they know it can't simply be partisan or policy issues...it must be impeachable offenses and currently Trump has checked more boxes than any other President in history...
Why does this matter if the GOP controls the Senate? Well because there is an election coming next year...and there are enough vulnerable GOP positions that its possible to completely decimate the Senate...if the democrats win control of the Senate the firth thing they will do is complete the impeachment process and remove not only Trump but every person he has appointed...expect Barr to be impeached and Kavanaugh as well...controlling both the House and the Senate would be the end of a lot of republican careers...
SOOOO....if they decide to go along with Pelosi...its possible the blood bath won't be so bad.
I don't expect Trump to last that long though...he's in very bad health...mentally he is struggling and he hates opposition, he hates being told what to do...he will try to work out a deal with Pelosi which is th emost probable outcome because the GOP will force him to...
Just for balance here......................
Would the Dems have held off if one of Trump's sons was involved in a Ukrainian company issue?
It looks like Trump's payback for Russia Enquiry, with the same aim that some mud always sticks.
That's Politics today.
DaveP
Would the Dems have held off if one of Trump's sons was involved in a Ukrainian company issue?
It looks like Trump's payback for Russia Enquiry, with the same aim that some mud always sticks.
That's Politics today.
DaveP
Just for the record, the UK supreme court cleared up a grey area by ruling Boris's action was "unlawful".
Illegal is used when you break a known law, so he won't be arrested because he took legal advice that turned out to be wrong, there is a difference.
DaveP
Illegal is used when you break a known law, so he won't be arrested because he took legal advice that turned out to be wrong, there is a difference.
DaveP
living sounds
Well-known member
DaveP said:
Only if you ignore the facts of the case and listen to the spin from the right.
The target audience don't have time or interest to go into details, so it works.
It is more likely that he comes out a victim than a villain in all of this, Squarewave is right.
It still looks like the Dems never accepted the result of the last election, they would be best served by inventing a better system for selecting an effective candidate for the next election, none of them have the charisma of Obama or even Bill Clinton.
DaveP
living sounds
Well-known member
DaveP said:
Competence and sincerity should be the benchmark for a good President.
Obama was a once-in-a-lifetime politician. But I think Elizabeth Warren can do really well.
President Trump has been investigated by multiple house committees for years (not to mention the Mueller investigation). The only news is that Nancy Pelosi has caved to the more radical wing of her party and declared a formal impeachment investigation. She has resisted the calls, and tried to damp down the rhetoric until now.
Impeachment is a political process that at best results in an indictment (it is not a criminal prosecution). "High crimes and misdemeanors" are whatever they say they are. Even if they have enough votes in the house to move this to the senate, they are unlikely to get 2/3 of the senate to impeach.
The strategy appears to stay in the hard anti-Trump mode through 2020 hoping to damage his re-election chances. Friendly media will continue to support their drip, drip, drip, of negative news.
The Ukraine phone call that everybody is hoping to be the smoking gun is reportedly going to be released as soon as today so we will see if there is any there there. Ukraine is a corrupt can of worms with multiple past linkages to US business and politics. A thorough investigation of all things Ukraine could be interesting, but I expect attention spans will fade beyond the "phone call"... which probably should not be made public. What world leader will speak frankly with President Trump in the future knowing their private comments could be made public?
The level of partisan enmity today is the worst I can recall, while not our worst in history (civil war was worse but before my time). It is hard to imagine how future election campaigns could get any worse, but I have faith that our politicians will come up with new ways to drag us all even lower.
JR
Impeachment is a political process that at best results in an indictment (it is not a criminal prosecution). "High crimes and misdemeanors" are whatever they say they are. Even if they have enough votes in the house to move this to the senate, they are unlikely to get 2/3 of the senate to impeach.
The strategy appears to stay in the hard anti-Trump mode through 2020 hoping to damage his re-election chances. Friendly media will continue to support their drip, drip, drip, of negative news.
The Ukraine phone call that everybody is hoping to be the smoking gun is reportedly going to be released as soon as today so we will see if there is any there there. Ukraine is a corrupt can of worms with multiple past linkages to US business and politics. A thorough investigation of all things Ukraine could be interesting, but I expect attention spans will fade beyond the "phone call"... which probably should not be made public. What world leader will speak frankly with President Trump in the future knowing their private comments could be made public?
The level of partisan enmity today is the worst I can recall, while not our worst in history (civil war was worse but before my time). It is hard to imagine how future election campaigns could get any worse, but I have faith that our politicians will come up with new ways to drag us all even lower.
JR
living sounds
Well-known member
Let's just say, that if any politician in Germany was caught doing what Trump did, he would not only face (near) unanimous calls to resign, but also face criminal prosecution. I have no doubt it would be the same in Canada, Denmark, France or any other modern, stable, first world democracy.
The antiquated rules, the Common Law system's weaknesses (like the reliance on precedent), the highly partisan environment and of course the corruption by moneyed interests have so far prevented appropriate political and criminal justice actions long overdue.
The antiquated rules, the Common Law system's weaknesses (like the reliance on precedent), the highly partisan environment and of course the corruption by moneyed interests have so far prevented appropriate political and criminal justice actions long overdue.
According to early reports the transcript implicates Barr pretty heavily, it seems Trump specifically asked a foreign government to dig up dirt on his political opponent and included Barr in the process...we are now in Special Counsel 2.0 territory now.
Here's what I don't get, is there no one around Trump to tell him that these things are actual violations of campaign law?
Is he that dumb? Or does he want to stop being prez?
These are really obvious crimes, does he truly think he is immune?
Of course no one really knows at this point because the real whistle blower complaint has not been released nor has the actual transcript...these are the facts from the redacted version...I cannot imagine it gets worse but Trump has surprised us all before.
And yes I for one (whom am a registered republican) would want ANY political representative who did these things investigated and sent to prison, its gaming the system to win an election, meaning our votes, our voice are diluted.
Here's what I don't get, is there no one around Trump to tell him that these things are actual violations of campaign law?
Is he that dumb? Or does he want to stop being prez?
These are really obvious crimes, does he truly think he is immune?
Of course no one really knows at this point because the real whistle blower complaint has not been released nor has the actual transcript...these are the facts from the redacted version...I cannot imagine it gets worse but Trump has surprised us all before.
And yes I for one (whom am a registered republican) would want ANY political representative who did these things investigated and sent to prison, its gaming the system to win an election, meaning our votes, our voice are diluted.
desol
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2005
- Messages
- 2,129
iomegaman said:
It's obvious that he relies on his 'slander and rhetoric to get him a 'get out of jail free' card...over and over and over again. So sad what he's reduced american society and politics to, regardless of any accomplishments he's claimed to have made.
It may be against many laws, but I imagine that leaders are making deals their entire political lives.
I also think that career politicians absolutely hate that a man like Trump has come into their domain and upset the cosy conscensus.
All of this will be forgotten by history, because Trump will be remembered as a climate denier above anything else.
DaveP
I also think that career politicians absolutely hate that a man like Trump has come into their domain and upset the cosy conscensus.
All of this will be forgotten by history, because Trump will be remembered as a climate denier above anything else.
DaveP
DaveP said:
I do appreciate a good "shake up" for the status quo...it helps reset the immune system and Trump has been the best there is for that...that being said, change just for change sake is not always a good thing...especially in a healthy system (politics is the most unhealthy) so stressing the system has benefit but it can come with a cost...and it appears this process is being played out across many political landscapes, not just the USA...
Hopefully we "weather" it...
iomegaman said:
And, I think it is surprising that not more people are uneasy with the behaviour of Trump. Do you really want such a cheat to manage the country, is that the sort of man you want representing you?
The many political parties in the Netherlands makes it sometimes hard to form a coherent government, but clearly two is not enough.
Also, as is shown by recent rollbacks of environmental policies, and people chosen for positions, it seems that companies have a bigger influence on the government and the policies it creates than is good for the country and it's people, I do not understand why not more people are uneasy with this. It is the job of the government to govern, not to rake in corporate dollars or keep their own in power.
I hope the people in the US realise that they are entitled to better representation, and for peeps sake, let all of those dinosaurs retire already. people >70 years belong in a rocking chair not in government.
Bo Deadly
Well-known member
I think you may have gone over the edge on this one. Elizabeth Warren is 70 and she can change the direction of wind waving at people. Bernie is 78 and he would crush Tekashi69 in a rap war.Jarno said:
:Jarno said:
Maybe we should force mandatory harvesting of organs for people > 70 YO... Can we turn the political dinosaurs into fossil fuel?
JR (dinosaur)
