impeachment stupidity

[hodad]

I resisted starting a topic about this a while ago, because I knew the usual suspects would never be convinced by mere facts.  Looks like I was right.  You can lay it out plain as day and they'll never see it.  Just sad. 

 

[iomegaman]

Trump is starting to lose Fox...if he loses Fox its over for him.

https://video.foxnews.com/v/6089432776001/#sp=show-clips

 

[JohnRoberts]

I resisted starting a topic about this a while ago, because I knew the usual suspects would never be convinced by mere facts.  Looks like I was right.  You can lay it out plain as day and they'll never see it.  Just sad.

This is a classic political ink blot test, we will all see different things.

That is why I prefer electronics to politics. You can get objective truth in electronics with a $20 VOM... 

We need a political VOM. (bad joke).

JR

@ iomegaman  yes the force is weaker over there...  funny stuff showing up in the crawls, etc.

 

[bluebird]

Thank you Mr. iomegaman for laying it out like that! Your time is much appreciated.

 

[hodad]

This is a classic political ink blot test, we will all see different things.

That is why I prefer electronics to politics. You can get objective truth in electronics with a $20 VOM... 

We need a political VOM. (bad joke).

JR


@ iomegaman  yes the force is weaker over there...  funny stuff showing up in the crawls, etc.

I was just talking today about how the GOP has become the party of moral & epistemological relativism.  They make their own reality, regardless of how the duck walks & quacks.  And it doesn't matter how vociferously they may have fought for a belief yesterday--none of that matters in the light of the new day. 

 

[iomegaman]

I was just talking today about how the GOP has become the party of moral & epistemological relativism.  They make their own reality, regardless of how the duck walks & quacks.  And it doesn't matter how vociferously they may have fought for a belief yesterday--none of that matters in the light of the new day.

I think this is a problem of evolution in a binary system...I think there should be at a minimum 3 equal parties to choose from but the two in power stay in power via "making their own reality", it is not an issue of party it is an issue of no balancing counter weight in a binary system...if one party has the dominance they set the narrative, they own the definitions and the discourse...if there was a slightly less equal distribution between three factions the amount of power each party had would be less so the possibility of taking things to far out of reality would also be less...at least thats my theory...as it stands a binary two party system will not permit a third equal and countering party to exist thus it will always be "loudest voice wins"...

America if it is to survive needs one more truly formidable party at the table and not just the Democrats and Republicans...

Three branches of government three separate but equal political parties...it just makes sense to me.

 

[cyrano]

America if it is to survive needs one more truly formidable party at the table and not just the Democrats and Republicans...

That really is the crux of the matter.

 

[hodad]

I think this is a problem of evolution in a binary system...

Why are the Rs what they are, and the Ds are not opposite but equal?  Who is the Dem equivalent of McConnell?  How can you equate Obama, who was stable and reasonable and actually tried to work with Rs, with Trump, who changes his story and his mind from hour to hour, who regularly lies about things that are demonstrably contrary to what he says?  What is the Dem equivalent of the lunacy of Pizzagate?  Or any of the other wacko conspiracy theories of the right? 

The Rove quote to Suskind in which he derides "reality-based" people pretty much sums up where Republicans have gone in the past 20 years.  Verifiable truths are for the weak Democrats; Republicans lie and bluster, fabricate and distort, fearmonger and bluster, then bluster and bluster again without regard to anything resembling objective reality. 

I studied philosophy a long, long time ago--some of it has stuck with me.  I certainly get the tenets of relativism, I know the Stoics as well, who seem to be popular again among righties.  But it's an extremely unhealthy basis for a system of governance. 

 

[iomegaman]

I think in a binary system mimetic rivalry ALWAYS wins...it won't be the polar opposites that will win this fight it will be the ones who ramp up the political language violence...

The system is very close to breaking, this means that the prevailing tension will find a common scapegoat to return peace to the system, it is obvious Trump will be the scapegoat, it is unavoidable, the man is toast and will probably die in prison...

You will see the GOP begin to turn on Trump, one by one...not because they think its the right thing to do, but instead out of mimetic rivalry...it is the way our cultures have moved for the last 5000 years...

Always the same pattern, mimetic behavior leads to rivalry, tension ramps up sides are chosen and a scapegoat is offered to appease the gods...it is very telling though that the evangelical christians are the ones who will turn on Trump, they are supposed to carry the "Way" of Jesus which was to self sacrifice and forgive to stop the mimetic mechanism...one more time they will show they have missed his message.

Rene Girard has more to say about this than ANY political scientist or philosopher...

The democrats (and most of the GOP) envy Trump, this is the source of mimetic desire... (Girard clearly lays out that we are not the source of our own desires we inherit them from our tribe)...mimetic desire leads to mimetic rivalry...which always leads to a scapegoat.

Over.and.Over.and.Over...

We keep repeating this pattern.

 

[hodad]

it is very telling though that the evangelical christians are the ones who will turn on Trump, they are supposed to carry the "Way" of Jesus which was to self sacrifice and forgive to stop the mimetic mechanism...one more time they will show they have missed his message.

Ummmmmm.... I thought they missed His message when they supported a lying, philandering whoremonger in the first place.  Abandoning Trump is not where evangelicals went wrong; supporting him in the first place was their grave betrayal of Christian principles. 

Trump will certainly be hung out to dry be the GOP if that's what works for them.  They've used him as cover for pushing their agenda ever rightward (this I think is more the work of McConnell than Trump himself) while leaving Trump to take the bulk of the punishment when his mob-like presidency finally collapses.  But that speaks much more to moral bankruptcy of GOP leadership than to anything else. 

 

[DaveP]

Ummmmmm.... I thought they missed His message when they supported a lying, philandering whoremonger in the first place.  Abandoning Trump is not where evangelicals went wrong; supporting him in the first place was their grave betrayal of Christian principles.

There has always been an understanding that God uses bad people to do good things.  In this case it may be getting the Supreme Court how they wanted it and getting abortion reduced.  But I agree that he will be discarded after his sell by date.

We know all about Trump because he never fails to tell us what he thinks.  We didn't know about Nixon till Watergate and JFK until he was dead.  JFK's womanizing put Trump's in the shade, imagine the cover ups that there must have been to keep him spotless?

All of this just looks like business as usual to me.  In the past there were far fewer whistleblowers or muckraking newspapers so it all went on but it was kept in the dark.

DaveP

 

[cyrano]

Ummmmmm.... I thought they missed His message when they supported a lying, philandering whoremonger in the first place. 

They had no choice...

 

[JohnRoberts]

I am not smart enough to predict the future but I'm pretty sure you guys aren't either. People that do it for a living have been less than reliable. Polls are used to manufacture sentiment as much as gauge it. I outsmarted (not hard) 3 robo calls yesterday from same number. Just pick up the phone but don't say anything. The robo callers ASSume they reached an answering machine and hang up. But it still is an interruption and waste of time.

The opposition is trying to make President Trump as angry as they are, and dropping the impeachment press release while President Trump is at the UN trying to make deals with world leaders is a pretty low shot. They made the announcement about a smoking gun before seeing the smoking gun. That is beside the point since this is purely a political strategy (IMO) regarding the 2020 election, not a credible attempt to remove him from office. Ironically (or not) this will probably harm Joe Biden as he now has to explain some of his very public statements claiming he would hold back $1B in loan guarantees if the Ukraine did not fire a prosecutor general looking into a company Joe Biden's son was being paid by, the very definition of quid pro quo.....  oops (or not, I doubt the hard left favors the moderate Joe Biden to lead their party). 

Sadly this stepped up impasse in congress pushes out ratification of canada/mexico/US trade deal, Japanese trade deal, etc. Not to mention red flag law improvements regarding who can have guns, but Beto torpedoed chances of any new gun legislation when he declared he wanted to take guns away from owners (forced buybacks). No doubt he was desperate for attention but not helping either side of this issue.  FWIW colt stopped selling AR-15s to consumers because of weak demand. They still sell to police departments and military (AR-15 and M-16 are pretty much the same weapon, but consumer AR-15 has full-automatic mode defeated). This weakness in sales is opposite what generally happens when politicians start waving their arms around talking about taking away guns, causing their sales to increase. 

JR

PS: When we can no longer talk to each other calmly to defuse our differences, violence is all that remains. I expect media and politicians are overstating the severity of all this to benefit their personal self-interest. Hopefully we are smart enough to not take the bait.

 

[living sounds]

In this case it may be getting the Supreme Court how they wanted it and getting abortion reduced. 

If it were actually about getting the number of abortions reduced, they could have increased sex education and improved the availibility of contraception. This is about controlling women.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/22/a-new-poll-shows-what-really-interests-pro-lifers-controlling-women

 

[desol]

The opposition is trying to make President Trump as angry as they are, and dropping the impeachment press release while President Trump is at the UN trying to make deals with world leaders is a pretty low shot. They made the announcement about a smoking gun before seeing the smoking gun. That is beside the point since this is purely a political strategy (IMO) regarding the 2020 election, not a credible attempt to remove him from office.

Disagree with all of this. A situation such as this merits immediate attention wherever trump is. Where he is has nothing to do with it. Of course they made an announcement, because it was enough. This is something trump did to himself. It's nonsense to believe otherwise.

 

[living sounds]

The first Republican governor came out in support of impeachment:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/a-first-vermont-gop-governor-backs-trump-impeachment-probe/2019/09/26/c2f22732-e075-11e9-be7f-4cc85017c36f_story.html

 

[Matador]

Ironically (or not) this will probably harm Joe Biden as he now has to explain some of his very public statements claiming he would hold back $1B in loan guarantees if the Ukraine did not fire a prosecutor general looking into a company Joe Biden's son was being paid by, the very definition of quid pro quo.....  oops (or not, I doubt the hard left favors the moderate Joe Biden to lead their party). 

There's a few glaring differences between what Trump did and what Biden did:

1) Firing Viktor Shokin was the position of the Obama White House, the State Department, and  most of the members of the UN Security Counsel.  In other words, this was the position of the UNITED STATES and allies of the US.  This wasn't Biden's personal position.

2) Trump already argued that there cannot be conflicts of interest between Trump (in his capacity as President) and his children (as private citizens), because his businesses "are not discussed".  It seems disingenuous to then argue that because Hunter Biden was Joe Biden's son, that there was automatically a conflict  of interest for the Secretary of State.

So the GOP has to either argue that quid pro quo is wrong or it isn't:  the entire "it's only wrong when the Democrats do it" line is getting tired.

Nobody at the State Department, and not a single ally of the US,  held the position that the Ukraine should investigate Biden in exchange for aid.  If true (and there's no reason to believe it isn't true, given Trump and Guiliani have already admitted it) , this was a personal favor to the President, not the position of the US.

 

[hodad]

There has always been an understanding that God uses bad people to do good things. 

Is this really how Christians think?  Will they truly tolerate this sort of behavior (unrepentant, mind you--Trump doesn't apologize) to serve their own ends? 

I appreciate that people can be weak, can make mistakes, can get on the wrong path, etc.  But Trump is unredeemed and does not seem to consider himself in need of redemption.  How is he worthy of a good Christian's support? 

 

[living sounds]

Is this really how Christians think?  Will they truly tolerate this sort of behavior (unrepentant, mind you--Trump doesn't apologize) to serve their own ends? 

I appreciate that people can be weak, can make mistakes, can get on the wrong path, etc.  But Trump is unredeemed and does not seem to consider himself in need of redemption.  How is he worthy of a good Christian's support?

Well, if you look at the old testament it's pretty clear that god herself is a bad actor. It's religion, it doesn't need to be consistent and it doesn't even need to make any sense at all. The whole point of (or rather reason behind) the more preposterous stuff is that by professing believe in it believers show devotion to the group.

 

[hodad]

The whole point of (or rather reason behind) the more preposterous stuff is that by professing believe in it believers show devotion to the group.

Are you talking about religion here, or have we gotten back to Trump? 8)