impeachment stupidity

[DaveP]

I appreciate that people can be weak, can make mistakes, can get on the wrong path, etc.  But Trump is unredeemed and does not seem to consider himself in need of redemption.  How is he worthy of a good Christian's support?

Like I said, because he altered the balance of the Supreme Court (I think the judiciary should be completely independent by the way) and he is anti-abortion.  They see the Dems going for rights over responsibilities.

Christians see the world in terms of a spiritual battle between good and evil way beneath the surface.  For example: The devil made sure that Christ was crucified, but he became the Saviour of the world  in the process.  Trump pulls out of the Climate Treaty, along comes Greta Thurnburg.  The world wants to save the Amazon, along comes Bolsanaro.  Its going on all the time.

The Germans were beaten in WW1 but the terms caused WW2.  The Nazis were beaten in WW2 but this unleashed Mao and the Korean war and then the Cold War, its like the Hydra's heads, cut off one and another grows.

DaveP

 

[living sounds]

Are you talking about religion here, or have we gotten back to Trump? 8)

It's actually the same general principle. But Trump lacks the creativity to actually invent the kind of stories a religion requires.

 

[hodad]

Christians see the world in terms of a spiritual battle between good and evil way beneath the surface.  For example: The devil made sure that Christ was crucified, but he became the Saviour of the world  in the process. 

DaveP

Yeah, but does that mean you should worship (or vote for) the devil?  Rooting for, even actively supporting, evil for the sake of the good you think it could possibly bring is pretty weird.  I don't really think that's the lesson to be taken from the devil ensuring the crucifixion of Jesus.

But I'm not a Christian, so maybe I have it all wrong. 

 

[DaveP]

Nothing is ever black and white, lots of grey areas.

Christians obviously don't intentionally vote for bad actors, in the end there are only two candidates in your system so they vote for what they think is the best for their beliefs.  Only later do they find out if it was a mistake or not ???

DaveP

 

[Matador]

The whistleblower complain has been released.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/trump-impeachment-inquiry/read-full-text-whistleblower-complaint-n1058971

It's quite astounding.  There's a secondary allegation that the White House, upon realizing what the President had asked Ukraine to do, moved to have the verbatim transcript designated top-secret and having it moved onto locked storage to prevent access.

To save John the trouble, I've in-lined the report here below as well:

(I kid...)  ;D

 

[iomegaman]

The GOP will try to make the whistleblower the scapegoat, much like the Kavanaugh hearing, where any woman who testified was whackadoodle...

There are already two Trump supporters offering $50,000 for the name and address of the WB...this.is.a.crime.

But it demonstrates the scapegoat mechanism...BOTH sides are looking for a relief to the pressure, BOTH sides are competing for the same resources (in this case its the narrative, NOT the law)...

There is evidence that the White House has been using a private secure server to dump politically sensitive transcripts and information into...which is pretty much irony ironing hypocrisy towels to serve on a bed of  incongruity considering all this Ukraine stuff eventually centers on Crowdstrike and the DNC server and Hillary's emails...it has very little to do with Biden...he's just a nail to hang the meme on...and herein is the "for lack of a nail" in Trumps horse race...once he has made it about Biden and Bidens son, he has made it about his personal campaign, which is ILLEGAL.

I do find the language of Trump regarding the whistleblower quite chilling...he is suggesting it is treason to tell on him, it is spying and in the old days spys were shot...with folks trying to DOX the whistleblowers ID, this is a very dangerous line to cross...by law there can be no reciprocation against the WB...

 

[JohnRoberts]

There is evidence that the White House has been using a private secure server to dump politically sensitive transcripts and information into...which is pretty much irony ironing hypocrisy towels

Hypocrisy towels? ....  Maybe if your administration co-workers (deep state)  were leaking sensitive communications with foreign leaders to the press (happened before) you would secure them too. Just common sense, and President Trump is common  if anything (there I gave you a free Trump joke) .

Oh the drama....  the end of civilization as we know it.... not. 

JR

 

[iomegaman]

Hypocrisy towels? ....  Maybe if your administration co-workers (deep state)  were leaking sensitive communications with foreign leaders to the press (happened before) you would secure them too. Just common sense, and President Trump is common  if anything (there I gave you a free Trump joke) .

Oh the drama....  the end of civilization as we know it.... not. 

JR

Section 1.7 of EO 13526

 

[DaveP]

From here it looks like a huge presumption of innocence hand in hand with a huge presumption of guilt, but very little investigative journalism to get to that conclusion.  Huge imbalance on the BBC.  John Humphries just retired and accused the BBC of Liberal Bias.

DaveP

 

[iomegaman]

Trump is going scorched-earth to defend himself.

No one did not see this coming except maybe the folks who have been part of circumventing the law.

A little reminder from history...60 people were indicted during Watergate, 48 were convicted, and 40 went to prison.

Let that sink in...from within the three piece suit wearing political class we got 48 convictions, which in turn lead to 40 wearing orange jumpsuits...

40..and the President himself only avoided prison because of a full pardon from Ford...for trying to get dirt on his political opponents...

History might not repeat itself but it does play some of the same songs on occasion.

We tend to think that every new crisis is the biggest we've ever faced...its just the wheels on the bus going round and round...

 

[DaveP]

We tend to think that every new crisis is the biggest we've ever faced...its just the wheels on the bus going round and round...

+1
That's why I said business as usual.

DaveP

 

[JohnRoberts]

Trump is going scorched-earth to defend himself.

we are seeing two different movies based on our expectations.

another perspective is that there are other investigations of the "investigation" going on that should finish soon and people are trying to get ahead of that by discrediting those in DOJ. (Maybe get Barr to recuse himself).

No one did not see this coming except maybe the folks who have been part of circumventing the law.

see what coming? The impeachment? This was declared bad politics by Nancy Pelosi only weeks ago and she is still correct (IMO), but apparently the social media winds are blowing harder left these days, taking this out of her hands. They still haven't called for an impeachment vote in the house, just rebranded the sundry house committee investigations, so a change without a difference.

A little reminder from history...60 people were indicted during Watergate, 48 were convicted, and 40 went to prison.

There were actual crimes committed by Nixon's bumbling crew of burglars. There was also an actual crime committed by President Clinton to that intern inside the oval office, but he got impeached for lying to investigators, not for what he did with her.

Let that sink in...from within the three piece suit wearing political class we got 48 convictions, which in turn lead to 40 wearing orange jumpsuits...

apples and orange jumpsuits.  I would love to see many people in the swamp get hard time for their law breaking, but that very rarely happens to swamp dwellers, unlikely this time either.

40..and the President himself only avoided prison because of a full pardon from Ford...for trying to get dirt on his political opponents...

President Nixon resigned from office because they caught him red handed.  President Ford did the right thing (IMO) to move the country toward a better place.  (I only wish President Nixon resigned before he drafted my butt into the army).

History might not repeat itself but it does play some of the same songs on occasion.

I am inclined to think we are writing some new (different) history this time around, and we are only in about the 3rd or 4th inning of this particular ball game. I wish we were further along but this will get dragged out perhaps beyond 2020.

We tend to think that every new crisis is the biggest we've ever faced...its just the wheels on the bus going round and round...

That is just the hyperbolic media. I have been saying all along that we as a nation have faced far worse crisis (how about a civil war?). That said this is the most divisive politics I have personally lived through. Partisan politics has spilled over into almost every aspect of our daily life.  Media and politicians have to gin up ever greater controversy to get attention and remain relevant.  I know I am weary from this. I expect many others are too. 

On top of that we are talking about two completely different "crisis".  :

I remain optimistic about our government surviving this time too... Our founders crafted a pretty robust system, but it can be ugly to see the sausage being made.

JR

 

[Gold]

There was also an actual crime committed by President Clinton to that intern inside the oval office, but he got impeached for lying to investigators, not for what he did with her.

What crime was that? She never claimed harassment or coercion.

 

[DaveP]

What crime was that? She never claimed harassment or coercion.

It hadn't been invented then, it was still the 20th Century. :

DaveP

 

[JohnRoberts]

What crime was that? She never claimed harassment or coercion.

Thanks for keeping me honest... apparently district of columbia  repealed their adultery crime laws.  (Chapter 2. Adultery. § 22–201 [Repealed].)  Further in some states, oral sex is not even considered adultery (I didn't dig into the old DC repealed laws for details).

He denied the affair under oath so no problem. 

JR

 

[Gold]

He denied the affair under oath so no problem. 

Seems quaint in today’s climate.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Seems quaint in today’s climate.

Not to feed this veer but if anything,  the powerful man taking advantage of a young intern is probably a bigger deal in today's climate (with #metoo movement) than it was back in then.

This entire manufactured (constitutional?) crisis seems quaint... but that's what politician have to do when times are good.

JR

 

[Recording Engineer]

I wonder how many people who supported Clinton’s impeachment from the very first breath of it, and continue to now, will be unsupportive of Trump’s impeachment, should enough come out for it to get to that. It’ll definitely be interesting to hear all the different angles people come up with to help justify their stance on that to help them sleep. Regardless, talk about the endless talking points from both sides... Just as designed!

 

[hodad]

This entire manufactured (constitutional?) crisis seems quaint...

So cute...Abusing presidential power to attack a political opponent is "manufactured" in your torturedly distorted worldview.  How's that Kool-Aid taste, John?  Must be mighty good.

 

[iomegaman]

I think I've made it clear I like that Trump is shaking things up, however shakeup for simply the sake of shaking up things is not always a good thing...I like the fact that he has not been the warmonger I thought he would be.

I am for a smaller level of government, so small to the point that people don't know who the leaders are, not because they're uninformed, but instead because the leaders are transparently unimportant...just enough to keep the local government in power...

Tribalism does not scale up very well without creating other kinds of cancer.

My primary problem with Trump is on a much smaller scale that reveals his character, he doesn't pay the little guy who does work for him...and the fact that there is plenty of evidence that he has been in bed with Russian mob money since the days his father started the business...

Most of us are little guys...any of us who would have done work for Trump would have probably been screwed...can you imagine putting in equipment into a Trump tower, having your company forced into bankruptcy because he refused to pay?

I've worked for guys like that and they are a blight on humanity...this is the character of DT...plenty of evidence widely available for anyone who wishes to see it.

He should have been in jail eons ago, NOT running a "shake-up" for people who want to change horses in midstream...

The fallout when the pendulum swings back to the left will be just as unbearable...but less televised...