mic & mod... good choice?

[melomane]

Exactly!
And also, I remember that Chunger has stolen the business of ChuckD at the time...
We mustn't forget, I think.
It makes me laugh so much to see this debate revived

 

[JessJackson]

I never get involved in drama and stay out of this stuff but I think its just really sly and sneaky the way he went about it. Even asking how Chunger takes his lightbox pictures for computer parts!!! I'd be pissed too if i was Matador Max and Chunger!!!

ChuckD is a personal friend of mine and Chunger did take the biz of that particular chinese u87/u67 housing. But regardless, it wasn't done as a cheesy commercially advertised product in the same way mic & mod is working it. It still was only for the community and followed through with integrity.

I'm lucky enough to be doing very well from music production / writing and recently I had the opportunity to set up a few employees and market the relay driven 251 design which i had pretty much completed in my spare time. I decided not follow through for a few reasons..

One: Ethically it felt wrong, using three relays was something blackspade had been quietly doing, regardless they contacted me privately offering some head baskets for the designs which obviously meant i had their blessings. Dan has now done it in an ethical manner based on my original design and i've supported him on it. This kind of stuff is great for the community.

Two: It would have taken away time from my daily 13 hour studio sessions at the moment which isn't worth the trade off.

Three: If i for instance had built an infrastructure such as mic & mod, the company would most likely be upside down (as I imagine he currently is) and making less money than i spent creating it.

It just wouldn't be worth the hassle, although i still do want to do something positive as a give back for the community.

Most of us including myself are musicians / artists etc... striving for the best sounding gear, a few of us just want it cheaper and some of us are stupid enough to think there is a market big enough to make some decent money out of it. Don't throw money at something just because your passionate about it. Id buy some more Tesla shares any day before building that site.

I own a decent selection of vintage and modern gear/ but I myself love DIY (Don't Involve Yourself  ) for the simple fact that I'm able to customize my gear to my sonic taste without effecting the collectable resale value of the piece.


I think he should take the website down and dissolve the company.

J

 

[EEMO1]

Me myself, I don't want to step on anyones toes or knock another mans hustle. Sharing is one thing, making a business is another.

I mean look at people like Gus. I think that guy is a genius in a way and no one even comments or asks him any questions when he rarely posts or replies to something.



It's all about the clones. People sweat their balls for someone to CLONE the sony 800g, but totally ignore something like the 6au6 design analag posted. I guess times are hard.

 

[3nity]

sorry 3rd poster

 

[Sredna]

@3nity: What's wrong with the 3rd (Jacobs) post?

 

[tonycamp]

Exactly!
And also, I remember that Chunger has stolen the business of ChuckD at the time...
We mustn't forget, I think.
It makes me laugh so much to see this debate revived

Exactly wrong! First of all, I dont see the humor? It shows your lack of understanding of the circumstances, if chunger was taking cathedral pipes mics, rebranding them and selling them as his own, ur un thoughtful statement may begin to have relevance, but that is NOT the case, so ur completely wrong at best.
  I'll say this again since some folks have such a hard time comprehending, or just don't bother reading threads they post in?? These guys contribute a ton to this forum, what exactly don't u understand about the danger in guys like mic and mod running off GDIY's talented guys?, and leaving the likes of Yannick for us to learn ZERO from! Show me a post where he's shared some knowledge not directly tied to his own financial interest? That kind of presence runs the risk of turning this GREAT place into a joke. If you read a bit more, and had more than 12 posts, maybe ud understand the spirit of this place.

 

[tonycamp]

sorry 3rd poster

My guess is Jacob was unaware of the impropriety when he posted, he's a big contributor around here.

 

[bernbrue]

he's a big contributor around here.
[/quote]
: : : :
Greenhorns!! Shame on you!!!  Without Jacob this forum wouldn´t even exist

 

[melomane]

If you read a bit more, and had more than 12 posts, maybe ud understand the spirit of this place.

I did not know that it was necessary to have a quota of message to have an opinion…
I think that for your part, you would make better leave a little and to see the world of outside… you will learn some a little more on the true life of outside.

 

[kidvybes]

Exactly!
And also, I remember that Chunger has stolen the business of ChuckD at the time...
We mustn't forget, I think.
It makes me laugh so much to see this debate revived

...actually, not the same circumstance...the component you refer to is an OEM (stock) microphone body, previously available wholesale from the manufacturer to anybody capable of meeting minimum quantity requirements...not a proprietary product...

I think that for your part, you would make better leave a little and to see the world of outside… you will learn some a little more on the true life of outside.

...so are you suggesting that the prevalence of unethical behavior and impropriety in the "outside world" should make such behavior more acceptable on this forum?...sure sounds like it...

 

[Matador]

I know max has some original designs, but otherwise isn't this a case of someone ripping off cloners?

shouldn't akg and neumann be pissed too?

As much as it pains me to bump this again:  one point of clarification.

The debate here has an analog between a song and a performance.  The song in this case is the microphone design/topology, and the performance is one particular realization of the design.  In Neumann and AKG's case, both created the song as well as published the first performance.  (And before there is any more pitchfork sharpening and torch lighting, the basic topologies for all of these tube mikes appeared in the Radiotron Designer's Handbook in the mid 30's.  Perhaps the ghost of Fritz Smith should be pissed at Neumann and AKG?  Maybe Edison should be angry at Fritz Smith??)

In my C12 case, I took the song and performance and changed it where I thought it could be improved, and kept the bits I thought worked well.  I changed the tempo, used different instruments, and even changed the lyrics.  But hopefully as a tribute not as a replacement.  Most "performances" by myself, Max, Flea, Telefunken, AA, Shure, Beezneez, are tweaks to both the song and performance, as appropriate.

I don't really see anything wrong with this:  I didn't make a direct copy of the C12 and just declare it as my invention.  I don't think anyone is confused that a C12 clone and a vintage (and/or new) AKG C12 are the exact same thing.  I used a different body, different parts, and deviated from the design where appropriate.  I have never claimed my incarnation is identical to the original:  "Inspired by" and "direct copy" are not synonyms!  Max's performance of the U47 is in the spirit of the original, however nobody would ever confuse his MK47 with a "real" Neumann U47.

Most other projects here at GDIY follow the same tack:  3nity's Access 312 is in the spirit of the original, but it's not a verbatim copy of the API's design (and again, API didn't invent the transformer coupled non-inverting op-amp gain stage either!).  Gyraf's G9 is definitely "inspired by" Neumann designs (it even says so right on his information page: "The sources of inspiration were the Neumann U67 and U47"). Many of the capsule's offered by users like tskguy and Beezneez are definitely inspired by classic designs, but they are different: using different metals, different drilling patterns, skinned at different facilities.  Again, there is little chance for confusion as to which is which.

The outrage in this case isn't about any loss of business due to a new performance:  someone took an existing performance, asked the original performer how and where it was created, got the original performers and lyrics in the same studio, sped up the tempo a bit, added a touch of reverb, then wrote "our recording engineers have written and recorded a Grammy-worthy tune for you folks"!

We can (and should) discuss exactly where this line should be drawn, but clearly we've seen both sides of it in this case.

 

[3nity]

Quote from: 3nity on Today at 07:41:28 AM
sorry 3rd poster

My guess is Jacob was unaware of the impropriety when he posted, he's a big contributor around here.

Actually im talking about you, but whats been said its been said.

 

[tonycamp]

Quote from: 3nity on Today at 07:41:28 AM
sorry 3rd poster

My guess is Jacob was unaware of the impropriety when he posted, he's a big contributor around here.

Actually im talking about you, but whats been said its been said.

Sorry u don't understand?

 

[EEMO1]

I didn't make a direct copy of the C12

how much do you recon the difference is between the 2 if you look at the schematics?

 

[3nity]

Whatever...

 

[Matador]

I didn't make a direct copy of the C12

how much do you recon the difference is between the 2 if you look at the schematics?

I'm unsure of what you are implying...are you arguing that everything that makes up the look, feel, and sound of a microphone is solely encompassed by the paper schematic?

If that were true then only one capsule would be needed for the sum total of all microphone designs.

Is Aretha Franklin's rendition of "Amazing Grace" the same as Elvis Presley's?  How much do you recon the difference is between the 2 if you look at the lyrics?

 

[Meathands]

Wow, this is really unfortunate. Another battle in the War for the Soul of GroupDIY.

Are we a free marketplace or a community devoted to each others' mutual benefit? Clearly we are a bit of both.

You could see Mic and Mod as doing the work of the Invisible Hand. The factory that Chunger worked with sold them the headbaskets, after all. So, from a free-market perspective I see some playing dirty but overall, bravo, they made the marketplace more efficient.

But what's really at stake is the collaborative and sharing nature of this community. This is the "pearl beyond price," and Mic and Mod, it seems to me, has undermined it after having benefited from it. Incorporating others' work (I won't say "stealing") without attribution is inexcusable; it discourages people from sharing their work in the future. Same with posing as an earnest newbie to extract information about vendors; that's sewing distrust in the community. If I thought there were a profit-motive behind every email question I got, I'd be less likely to share what I know.

I wish Mic and Mod the best of luck in the marketplace, but I support the decision to ban them from the community.

 

[taliska]

Wow, this is really unfortunate. Another battle in the War for the Soul of GroupDIY.

Are we a free marketplace or a community devoted to each others' mutual benefit? Clearly we are a bit of both.

You could see Mic and Mod as doing the work of the Invisible Hand. The factory that Chunger worked with sold them the headbaskets, after all. So, from a free-market perspective I see some playing dirty but overall, bravo, they made the marketplace more efficient.

But what's really at stake is the collaborative and sharing nature of this community. This is the "pearl beyond price," and Mic and Mod, it seems to me, has undermined it after having benefited from it. Incorporating others' work (I won't say "stealing") without attribution is inexcusable; it discourages people from sharing their work in the future. Same with posing as an earnest newbie to extract information about vendors; that's sewing distrust in the community. If I thought there were a profit-motive behind every email question I got, I'd be less likely to share what I know.

I wish Mic and Mod the best of luck in the marketplace, but I support the decision to ban them from the community.

Just wanted to say that as casual observer and a bit of a leech due to lack of technical ability and an all round drama lover, this has to be the most nuanced and least polarising post we've had in this thread yet and one that I mostly agree with. I like it because it seems to be the fairest appraisal of the situation at hand and reflects my own views more eloquently than I myself could!

That said, and and acknowledging that I'm a nobody, I would like to disagree with the banning of m&m though.

Personally, I don't want to buy any of their offerings, and the slightly dubious origins is a cause for concern with regards to the community, but the other side of that is the vocal group (seemingly a lynch mob!) of competitors that have chimed in. Perhaps the evidence is overwhelming in your own day to day dealings of what has happened, but to someone on the sidelines, it just looks plain bad and doesn't reflect well on anyone. That said, only one person in this thread comes off as a complete dick, as most of you have kept your posts classy and stayed away from the insults.

I'd also like to say that mic and mod are better as part of the community than not, simply because the damage is already done and anyone who wants that kind of "no thought required" solution will go to them anyway because they're there and word will get around anyway. However, including them in the community regardless, means that groupdiy will still be a gateway to mic and mod in some ways, and surely that's a good thing. Obviously that would allow the forum to make money from the WM listing, but the real benefit is the "gateway drug effect". Sure, people who just want cheap mic bundles will buy from mic and mod, and that will make some of you furious, but on the flip side, some people will be drawn in by the simplicity of their offerings and once they're part of the forum and hooked, they might well decide that they want to get a bit more involved and instead opt for one of the less "paint by numbers" projects around here. By including m&m, you will at least get the opportunity to educate the people buying from them, but by excluding them, you lose the ability to have any meaningful interaction with their customers (assuming you think my point is valid).

Yes, the lack of attribution and general sneakiness is pretty bad, but if you're not actually competing over the same customers, and in fact, their customers might one day become your customers, then perhaps it's worth looking at the positive side instead?

Please don't lynch me...I actually think most of you are doing great work!

Kaz

P.S. My day job is as a Software Engineer who builds games, so I'm all too familiar with clones, rip-offs, illegal copying etc.. I'm also a one man business, who isn't particularly successful at the moment, so I understand the feeling of being up against a wall.

 

[JessJackson]

Matador,

As Per your music creation analogy...

If I Sample another "Song" I have to give up a percentage of my writer royalties and pay royalties to the original writer of that song. (sometimes as low as 30% and up to 100%

If I sample a song that has sampled a song and changed or added to it slightly. I have to give up royalties to both artists.

If I create an interpolation of the same "Sample" I may in some instances have to give up just as much % in royalties but the difference being that I get to keep "Performance" royalties.

And all of this above presumes the original artist's cleared it by giving written permission to my lawyers & label

J

 

[Meathands]

And all of this above presumes the original artist's cleared it by giving written permission to my lawyers & label

Technical quibble, you need to notify a rights-holder that you are recording their song, but you don't need their permission to do so.

I'm not sure Matador's song metaphor is perfect but I think it's beside the point. He implemented a known circuit in a new way, which requires considerable skill and time. Everyone knew his source material; he wasn't claiming it as his own.

He claims that M&M's layout and other design elements are implementations of his work without credit or permission. They are claiming it as their own work my omission. There's nothing illegal about this, it just undermines the culture of trust and reciprocity around here that made M&M possible in the first place.