mic & mod... good choice?

[kidvybes]

I'd also like to say that mic and mod are better as part of the community than not, simply because the damage is already done and anyone who wants that kind of "no thought required" solution will go to them anyway because they're there and word will get around anyway. However, including them in the community regardless, means that groupdiy will still be a gateway to mic and mod in some ways, and surely that's a good thing. Obviously that would allow the forum to make money from the WM listing, but the real benefit is the "gateway drug effect". Sure, people who just want cheap mic bundles will buy from mic and mod, and that will make some of you furious, but on the flip side, some people will be drawn in by the simplicity of their offerings and once they're part of the forum and hooked, they might well decide that they want to get a bit more involved and instead opt for one of the less "paint by numbers" projects around here. By including m&m, you will at least get the opportunity to educate the people buying from them, but by excluding them, you lose the ability to have any meaningful interaction with their customers (assuming you think my point is valid).

...I respectfully disagree with your logic...it seems rather obvious that Mic and Mod's plan is to be a "catch-all" for the entire DIY mic marketplace, and the main purpose of his presence here is to divert traffic directly to his website, as he has contributed little to the offerings he's culled already from others...

...for the sake of comparison, you can look at another DIY member, mparts, who also maintains his own site "microphone-parts.com", and has much more effectively intertwined his offerings to compliment this community, avoiding any excessive overlap with other projects/vendors, exhibiting a very civil level of mutual respect...and his site, and the nature of his method of developing products and doing business have also been somewhat a victim of Mic and Mod's method of doing business...

...anyway, if you can see value in my evaluation, then your logic fails...

I'm also a one man business, who isn't particularly successful at the moment, so I understand the feeling of being up against a wall.

...possibly an offshoot of the logic you seem to be guided by...

 

[taliska]

...I respectfully disagree with your logic...it seems rather obvious that Mic and Mod's plan is to be a "catch-all" for the entire DIY mic marketplace, and the main purpose of his presence here is to divert traffic directly to his website, as he has contributed little to the offerings he's culled already from others...

I respectfully accept the point you're trying to make, but disagree with the logic behind your disagreement!

m&m's intentions might well be to take over the world, but that doesn't mean it will happen, and his intentions don't really affect the point I made in any way. If the build threads for the m&m offerings stay alive on groupdiy, then that will mean that when his customers have problems, they will come here to talk about them. If they are here talking about those issues, informed members can try to help them out, and perhaps point them at the reasons why these problems exist and perhaps help remedy them. Maybe those customers will decide that the other members they have been talking to are actually better informed then m&m and are better sources of guidance when it comes to choosing their next build (how could this not be the case if the original pcb/mod creators are the ones doing the informing? Copying only gets you so far and if you haven't been through the problem solving process yourself, then you won't know why certain things are the way they are and that lack of knowledge will be obvious at that point). Of course, this relies on m&m hosting his trouble shooting threads here, which certainly won't happen if people aren't nice. Hell, perhaps that should be a policy for having a white market thread...you must link back here from your main site for build threads.

...for the sake of comparison, you can look at another DIY member mparts, who also maintains his own site "microphone-parts.com", and has much more effectively intertwined his offerings to compliment this community, avoiding any excessive overlap with other projects/vendors, exhibiting a very civil level of mutual respect...and his site, and the nature of his method of developing products and doing business have also been somewhat a victim of Mic and Mod's method of doing business...

Yeah, I actually visited that site yesterday after reading about this m&m stuff as I was curious what other people were doing. Look's like they're doing good stuff over there (especially the bit where they have a UK warehouse!), but I think you're making a leap. Maybe you know how many units mparts sells and m&m sells, and have a really solid grasp on what the economy is doing at the moment and how much disposable cash people have, but I don't and even if I did, I still couldn't tell you for sure that one was eating the other's lunch.

There are a lot of other places people can spend their money if they're so inclined and the non-kit form of diy's not for everyone.

Cheers!

Kaz

P.S.

...possibly an offshoot of the logic you seem to be guided by...

« Last Edit: March 07, 2014, 04:54:01 PM by kidvybes »

I was going to let this go, but it's worth stating that editing your original post after my reply is a bit cheeky as it doesn't really make it easy for me to notice and respond to your additional point (though I accept that you didn't change the content of the points I've already addressed, but rather were just including an omission).

I'll be the first person to admit that my logic on how to run my business is probably a bit flawed, but I'm not sure that you're particularly well positioned to assess that. It's probably got more to do with spending the last four years stuck in front of my computer building my tech from the ground up without launching a product due to being a bit of a perfectionist. Funnily enough, despite my attempt to introduce a balanced viewpoint in to this thread, I actually value independent creation and take pride in my own work, but know that in the end I will have to compete in a market full of copycats. My response has been to pre-emptively invest in technology so completely that I hope to prevent copying through sheer complexity of the required technical solution. It probably won't help in the end, but my reason for mentioning my situation was to show solidarity with those who feel that their designs have been copied. When I eventually launch a product, it will undoubtedly happen to me too, and I will just have to breathe in, breathe out, and accept that it's just the way it is.

 

[tonycamp]

Wow, this is really unfortunate. Another battle in the War for the Soul of GroupDIY.

Are we a free marketplace or a community devoted to each others' mutual benefit? Clearly we are a bit of both.

You could see Mic and Mod as doing the work of the Invisible Hand. The factory that Chunger worked with sold them the headbaskets, after all. So, from a free-market perspective I see some playing dirty but overall, bravo, they made the marketplace more efficient.

But what's really at stake is the collaborative and sharing nature of this community. This is the "pearl beyond price," and Mic and Mod, it seems to me, has undermined it after having benefited from it. Incorporating others' work (I won't say "stealing") without attribution is inexcusable; it discourages people from sharing their work in the future. Same with posing as an earnest newbie to extract information about vendors; that's sewing distrust in the community. If I thought there were a profit-motive behind every email question I got, I'd be less likely to share what I know.

I wish Mic and Mod the best of luck in the marketplace, but I support the decision to ban them from the community.

Just wanted to say that as casual observer and a bit of a leech due to lack of technical ability and an all round drama lover, this has to be the most nuanced and least polarising post we've had in this thread yet and one that I mostly agree with. I like it because it seems to be the fairest appraisal of the situation at hand and reflects my own views more eloquently than I myself could!

That said, and and acknowledging that I'm a nobody, I would like to disagree with the banning of m&m though.

Personally, I don't want to buy any of their offerings, and the slightly dubious origins is a cause for concern with regards to the community, but the other side of that is the vocal group (seemingly a lynch mob!) of competitors that have chimed in. Perhaps the evidence is overwhelming in your own day to day dealings of what has happened, but to someone on the sidelines, it just looks plain bad and doesn't reflect well on anyone. That said, only one person in this thread comes off as a complete ****, as most of you have kept your posts classy and stayed away from the insults.

I'd also like to say that mic and mod are better as part of the community than not, simply because the damage is already done and anyone who wants that kind of "no thought required" solution will go to them anyway because they're there and word will get around anyway. However, including them in the community regardless, means that groupdiy will still be a gateway to mic and mod in some ways, and surely that's a good thing. Obviously that would allow the forum to make money from the WM listing, but the real benefit is the "gateway drug effect". Sure, people who just want cheap mic bundles will buy from mic and mod, and that will make some of you furious, but on the flip side, some people will be drawn in by the simplicity of their offerings and once they're part of the forum and hooked, they might well decide that they want to get a bit more involved and instead opt for one of the less "paint by numbers" projects around here. By including m&m, you will at least get the opportunity to educate the people buying from them, but by excluding them, you lose the ability to have any meaningful interaction with their customers (assuming you think my point is valid).

Yes, the lack of attribution and general sneakiness is pretty bad, but if you're not actually competing over the same customers, and in fact, their customers might one day become your customers, then perhaps it's worth looking at the positive side instead?

Please don't lynch me...I actually think most of you are doing great work!

Kaz

P.S. My day job is as a Software Engineer who builds games, so I'm all too familiar with clones, rip-offs, illegal copying etc.. I'm also a one man business, who isn't particularly successful at the moment, so I understand the feeling of being up against a wall.

I'm sure you're referring to me with the "complete ****"comment, and that's fine by me, I'd rather sound like a complete **** bringing attention to an injustice, standing up for friends, and for what's right, than politely and obliviously apologizing for an ethically challenged schiester like you just did, and continue to do??? Read the messages on the chunger post, if u don't get it after that, ur beyond help.

Thank you for reading
Signed, Complete **** 8)

 

[taliska]

I'm sure you're referring to me with the "complete ****"comment, and that's fine by me, I'd rather sound like a complete **** bringing attention to an injustice, standing up for friends, and for what's right, than politely and obliviously apologizing for an ethically challenged schiester like you just did, and continue to do??? Read the messages on the chunger post, if u don't get it after that, ur beyond help.

Thank you for reading
Signed, Complete **** 8)

I absolutely was referring to you, but don't take it too seriously, I can be a complete C U Next Tuesday sometimes!

For the record, I don't believe I have once apologised for m&m. I just think there's another way that's all.

Oh, and I'm most definitely beyond help...but that's a different matter entirely!

Cheers!

Kaz

 

[Matador]

I'm not sure Matador's song metaphor is perfect but I think it's beside the point. He implemented a known circuit in a new way, which requires considerable skill and time. Everyone knew his source material; he wasn't claiming it as his own.

He claims that M&M's layout and other design elements are implementations of his work without credit or permission. They are claiming it as their own work my omission. There's nothing illegal about this, it just undermines the culture of trust and reciprocity around here that made M&M possible in the first place.

Well said (and far better than I did).

I actually hope people take these designs, make them better, and have lively debates of the merits, etc.  It's the best way to keep music technology moving forward, and improves the tools everyone depends on to have success.  I learn new things and new ways of doing things based on everyone else's research and ideas on GDIY, and to lose that would be a shame.

 

[Meathands]

Kaz, thank you for the kind words. You made some good points.

However, I think you are underestimating how fragile a community like this is in the age of global capitalism and how carefully it needs to be preserved.

You're thinking of GDIY as a marketplace. Marketplaces are ecosystems, they need sharks to kill weak businesses and keep the great ones honest.

GDIY is a community. A community bands together so they can insulate themselves from the laws that would otherwise govern them. That is, we can collaborate without contracts, share our knowledge for free, and do other nice things that are dangerous for individual actors in a pure free marketplace.

The way I see it, M&M has essentially reaped the benefits made possible by this community and then turned around and acted as though there were no community. The market will or won't reward them for this strategy; as I said, I wish them luck. A community based on mutual aid, credit-where-credit-is-due, share-and-share-alike, etc. can't reward this kind of behavior by tolerating it. Otherwise, GDIY is just a marketplace where the best product wins.

Then where are we? Time, skills, and expertise = money. No more free knowledge, help, and projects for you and me.

 

[taliska]

Kaz, thank you for the kind words. You made some good points.

However, I think you are underestimating how fragile a community like this is in the age of global capitalism and how carefully it needs to be preserved.

You're thinking of GDIY as a marketplace. Marketplaces are ecosystems, they need sharks to kill weak businesses and keep the great ones honest.

GDIY is a community. A community bands together so they can insulate themselves from the laws that would otherwise govern them. That is, we can collaborate without contracts, share our knowledge for free, and do other nice things that are dangerous for individual actors in a pure free marketplace.

The way I see it, M&M has essentially reaped the benefits made possible by this community and then turned around and acted as though there were no community. The market will or won't reward them for this strategy; as I said, I wish them luck. A community based on mutual aid, credit-where-credit-is-due, share-and-share-alike, etc. can't reward this kind of behavior by tolerating it. Otherwise, GDIY is just a marketplace where the best product wins.

Then where are we? Time, skills, and expertise = money. No more free knowledge, help, and projects for you and me.

Expertly crafted again!

However, I think you are underestimating how fragile a community like this is in the age of global capitalism and how carefully it needs to be preserved.

Quite possibly! Truth be told, I don't really do much communal stuff outside of this, so I can completely agree that I might be missing the subtleties.

You're thinking of GDIY as a marketplace. Marketplaces are ecosystems, they need sharks to kill weak businesses and keep the great ones honest.

Sorry, that was my fault for talking in terms of customers and buyers, which is in part accurate. However, I really meant to suggest that the extra foot traffic that would come through this forum as a result of m&ms inclusion, might result in bolstering the number of members that could one day contribute something back (especially if they branch out in to other less simple projects on the forum). Trying to make a positive out of a negative if you will...

The way I see it, M&M has essentially reaped the benefits made possible by this community and then turned around and acted as though there were no community.

Absolutely. Not disputing that their behaviour has been less than community centric.

A community based on mutual aid, credit-where-credit-is-due, share-and-share-alike, etc. can't reward this kind of behavior by tolerating it.

I think this is the key point for me. Truthfully, I'm not sure how to respond to this one. I think you're saying that the danger is that more people would come and behave like m&m and skew the population of the forum in a direction where those values aren't important anymore. I can totally see how that could happen. I think my only counterpoint would be that they've been here for a while and there hasn't been a massive influx of similar acting entities as far as I'm aware.

Then where are we? Time, skills, and expertise = money. No more free knowledge, help, and projects for you and me.

Absolutely...and god knows, I need all the help I can get!

Thanks for taking the time to spell it out. I still think there could be potential benefits to m&ms inclusion, but you make a strong enough point with regards to the balance and maintenance of community spirit for me to understand why you don't feel that way. A well reasoned viewpoint that is easy for me to respect even if I'm not 100% sure I totally agree with it (there's a slight nagging feeling that fear is beating optimism in this case, which bothers me a little).

Anyway, thanks for the discussion. I prefer it to pitchforks! 

Cheers,

Kaz

 

[ioaudio]

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/9839521-post172.html

 

[Matador]

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/9839521-post172.html

Indeed...

Those who think PCB design isn't an art are sorely mistaken: each designer imparts an unmistakable look and feel to a design by the way they run traces, do plane pours, organize silk screens, etc.

I knew within about 100ms who had created most of these new Mic n' Mod pcb offerings...

 

[poctop]

STOP

The post has been edited now to explain myself , to avoid further confusion or rudness to any member of this community,

Chunger contacted me about this mess and this is my reply.

Needed to Clarify that what happened is enterly my fault.  and I wish to present my sincere appologies to parties involved.

More Details Here.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/9839521-post172.html

I will comply with the  consensus of the Community either i should be leaving this Forum.

Sincerly
Dan.

 

[JessJackson]

STOP

The post has been edited now to explain myself , to avoid further confusion or rudness to any member of this community,

Chunger contacted me about this mess and this is my reply.

Needed to Clarify that what happened is enterly my fault.  and I wish to present my sincere appologies to parties involved.

More Details Here.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/9839521-post172.html

I will comply with the  consensus of the Community either i should be leaving this Forum.

Sincerly
Dan.

Don't be ridiculous Dan, your not going anywhere mate.

J

 

[tonycamp]

STOP

The post has been edited now to explain myself , to avoid further confusion or rudness to any member of this community,

Chunger contacted me about this mess and this is my reply.

Needed to Clarify that what happened is enterly my fault.  and I wish to present my sincere appologies to parties involved.

More Details Here.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/9839521-post172.html

I will comply with the  consensus of the Community either i should be leaving this Forum.

Sincerly
Dan.

Well clearly... I'm not a good politician,
My frustration with the discovery of this situation, and the lack of a single post acknowledging it?..really threw me. My almost 300 posts at GDIY have always been very respectful toward the fellas, as I'm truly in awe of most of u and ur giant creative brains! If the circumstances were such, I would have been just as rabid defending you Dan, you've been an absolutely tremendous contributor to this great forum!
  That said, I'm sorry to hear you ran into troubles, it's a bummer, we all make mistakes, the best we can do is try to recognize them after the fact, and attempt to make things right. I hope this is what is happening, and things work out for all party's directly involved, as well as the community as a whole, which you are CERTAINLY, and hopefully will continue to be, a huge part of Dan!

 

[ricardo]

Chunger contacted me about this mess and this is my reply.

Needed to Clarify that what happened is enterly my fault.  and I wish to present my sincere appologies to parties involved.

More Details Here.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/9839521-post172.html

I will comply with the  consensus of the Community either i should be leaving this Forum.

Say 12 'Hail Mary's my son.  Your sins are forgiven.

PS  I hope Yannick paid you for your good work.

 

[EEMO1]

I didn't make a direct copy of the C12

how much do you recon the difference is between the 2 if you look at the schematics?

I'm unsure of what you are implying...are you arguing that everything that makes up the look, feel, and sound of a microphone is solely encompassed by the paper schematic?

If that were true then only one capsule would be needed for the sum total of all microphone designs.

Is Aretha Franklin's rendition of "Amazing Grace" the same as Elvis Presley's?  How much do you recon the difference is between the 2 if you look at the lyrics?

I understand what you are saying, in my opinion if you look at the intellectual property, the schematic is it. Doesn't matter "in what shell it's in".

The pcb you made is great, Im not taking that away from you, you did a good job and I actually have one. It's not about that.

Im just saying it is what it is. It's not an original design and you saying that it is not a clone of the c12 is bs to me since the schematic is 1:1. That same thing goes to a lot of "designs" floating around here. I think everyone should at least acknowledge the fact that these are clones. A copy of a design. Or am I wrong?

 

[trans4funks1]

I've been reading this thread for the past few days.

I think the criticisms expressed were less than useful.

From an outsiders perspective it appears as an argument among enthusiasts who aspire to be businessmen.

I can rationalize how I feel about the lynching I have witnessed here but I will not share my thoughts on that because I think some of ideas are so obvious that I suspect the disgruntled people have already decided to disregard them.

The one positive thing I can say is that any enthusiast whom aspires to run a small business should consider that service is the actual product you are selling and that arguing about pieces and parts is a distraction that doesn't do anything to enhance the service you provide.






I also want to add a comment of support for Dany (a.k.a. poctop) as I have found him to be one of the members here who shares accurate knowledge with people, such as myself, that have less interest in kit building and are more interested in learning about doing it yourself for yourself.

Over the years I have learned that it is difficult to DIY because of the great amount of inaccurate knowledge that buries the useful knowledge. I think the emergence of kits is a positive reaction to that circumstance, but it seems to have introduced a down side as well. The few people who seem willing to share accurate and comprehensive knowledge with scratch build DIY enthusiasts are people that I appreciate greatly. I hope they know that. I think Dany is one of those people.

 

[micaddict]

OK, now that Dany's apology is in the open, I'll add some thoughts.

First let me say that I've been a part of this community for a while now and I've known Dany as one of the nicest guys I've ever met on any forum.
Although I've never met him in person, I consider him a friend, and I'm a big fan of his work, too.

His apology letter is not a "yeah, perhaps I should have done things a little differently" pseudo-excuse, but he goes exceptionally far and truly shows remorse IMO.
This alone paints the character of the man. I mean, it's not that he did anything illegal; it's more like a gentleman's agreement he feels he violated. Nonetheless, he feels equally bad about it.
Also, he takes the entire blame for this whole mess, which of course is more than he should bear.

Ironically, Dany's nature might in fact have played a part in what led to all this. It's easier to take advantage of kind-hearted people.
Plus, as we know now, his private situation made him very vulnerable. And when a "dubious" opportunity comes along time after time, a man's logic starts playing tricks with him. I think we've all been there at some point.

In the end, everyone is responsible for his own deeds. I won't deny that. But I do believe there are mitigating factors here.

I think... no let me rephrase that, I know there are others here who showed similar moral behavior, but never showed any remorse at all. Sooner the opposite. And they would actually use this very afair as an opportunity to stretch their own morality some more.
Farfetched? I'm afraid not. I could give an example, but for now I'll refrain. There's been enough trouble already.
I hope time will prove me wrong ...

As for me, I can say I've bought stuff from many people here, some of whom probably didn't deserve it.
I had my reasons.
But don't we all.

As for MicandMod, what's there to add?
If Yannick continues to sell the boards, perhaps it might be an idea if he gives a percentage to Matador and ioaudio?

Fortunately, this community does have an above average self-cleansing ability.
And by self-cleansing I don't necessarily mean kicking folks out.
Without Dany we'll be a lot poorer for sure.

A community, in my own words, is a group of people who um ... communicate.
We'll work it out and come out of this stronger.


Henk

 

[Ethan]

This topic has gone past the point of productive discourse. Move on. Build something.