New CK12 capsule measurements

[ZHOUJUN]

Looking at the internals, I feel this is worth $100, looking forward to audio samples.

 

[Tim Campbell]

Looking at the internals, I feel this is worth $100, looking forward to audio samples.

I would like to hear what people paid for it. It was posted the price was 100 USD if you bought 50 of them and AliExpress has them listed at 350 USD so a bit confusing.

 

[cortez07]

One of the main problems was very broad machining tolerances. We were measuring front and back of the original brass CK12 and the dimension differences were as much as 100um (0.1mm!!!)... I am not sure why... perhaps they did not have precise enough equipment, so were using fine threaded movable pieces to compensate for that...

With modern CNC machinery that would've been piece of cake to get perfect repeatability. In this case I'd redesign the capsule so that all the cavities and chambers were machined into the backplates.... lots of R&D, though...

Best, M

@Marik , when will we expect the M601 to be out ? This is the mic with your CK12 "inspired" design, right? @6:00 mark

 

[kingkorg]

Looking at the internals, I feel this is worth $100, looking forward to audio samples.

I wouldn't say it's worth anything unless you are me and are willing to spend whole weekend on re-skin, re-tuning, and gambling. There's shipping and tax that comes on top of the price. Honestly i am a very DIY guy that likes tinkering, if someone gave me like 20 of these for free i would just give them away. No point in sharing audio samples, stock capsule is unusable. I am so frustrated with these, so close but so far from what they're supposed to be.

 

[Icantthinkofaname]

I would like to hear what people paid for it. It was posted the price was 100 USD if you bought 50 of them and AliExpress has them listed at 350 USD so a bit confusing.

I do believe retail is intended to be $350. I don't know what the hell they're smoking to think it's worth $350 as-is, but I'd like to try some of it. I know another Chinese "manufacturer" is planing to use similar pricing, won't say which company or who told me, but I don't expect them to be significantly cheaper than proper tunable ones you and the others make.

I will say the ability to tune isn't necessarily important to me as long as they offer different sounding models that have good off axis response. I don't know much about the construction of CK12s so I don't know how doable that is, but they could cut corners by offering a flat version, a +2 dB version, and a +4 or +5 dB version.

 

[kingkorg]

I do believe retail is intended to be $350. I don't know what the hell they're smoking to think it's worth $350 as-is, but I'd like to try some of it. I know another Chinese "manufacturer" is planing to use similar pricing, won't say which company or who told me, but I don't expect them to be significantly cheaper than proper tunable ones you and the others make.

I will say the ability to tune isn't necessarily important to me as long as they offer different sounding models that have good off axis response. I don't know much about the construction of CK12s so I don't know how doable that is, but they could cut corners by offering a flat version, a +2 dB version, and a +4 or +5 dB version.

At current state they don't seem to know what this capsule is even supposed to do. Tuning it is not like turning a screw little bit to the right or left. So i can't imagine how they might be able to do what you are describing.
I have basically all the blueprints i need, measuring setup, various re-skin alternatives, and i've spent 3 days on tuning one of them, and i'm not quite there yet.

The other part of the issue is that they can sell you anything and you won't be able to test it's performance by ear. Unless you have a good one to compare it to. Nailing that off-axis sound you mentioned, and making it work in all the patterns is INSANELY DIFFICULT.

I'll give you an example: I managed to tune it to my liking, and work and measure just nice in cardioid. Only to find out the low end in cardioid actually went to omni, and once i used both diaphragms to form omni pattern, low end went to F8 in omni setting!

I wanted these alternative capsules to be good so bad, even unrightfully attacked Tim for being biased. Right now i kinda regret even trying these out. I could have just added couple more bucks and ordered CK12 from a reputable manufacturer.

As Marik said it should be posible to come up with new, updated desigh of this capsule which could be in theory constructed and manufactured without tuning issues utilizing modern low tolerance machinery. I am becoming more and more interested if Austrian Audio succeeded in this with their OC818.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

Looking at the internals, I feel this is worth $100, looking forward to audio samples.

Even with good pictures, judging a product by looking at it is akin to reading tea leaves.
The proof is always in the pudding.

 

[amplexus]

Yeah they're fantastic capsules. I thought about putting yours or Ben's in my C414 B-ULS, but the prices on the mic have gone up so much in the last couple years (and it looks like they've even gone up a couple hundred since I bought mine last August). The only thing stopping me is it feels like I'd be "ruining" a good mic because I do like the B-ULS a lot, it's just a bit too dark on my voice I think (it could probably use a cleaning too). I don't know how well the brass CK12 would do on spoken word unless it's tuned to be flat (or a slight lift).

I feel like I'm one of the rare people who really love a C414 on the voice.

OT so i won't go too far into detail but I have brass CK12's in my B-ULS's and they are really quite excellent imo. They are much brighter than the stock capsule (which is more 'flat' than dark imo), but in a very nice smooth way. A quality CK12 here is a great alternative, even tho, like you, I love the stock sound of the B-ULS for what it is.

 

[GeorgeToledo]

At current state they don't seem to know what this capsule is even supposed to do. Tuning it is not like turning a screw little bit to the right or left. So i can't imagine how they might be able to do what you are describing.
I have basically all the blueprints i need, measuring setup, various re-skin alternatives, and i've spent 3 days on tuning one of them, and i'm not quite there yet.

The other part of the issue is that they can sell you anything and you won't be able to test it's performance by ear. Unless you have a good one to compare it to. Nailing that off-axis sound you mentioned, and making it work in all the patterns is INSANELY DIFFICULT.

I'll give you an example: I managed to tune it to my liking, and work and measure just nice in cardioid. Only to find out the low end in cardioid actually went to omni, and once i used both diaphragms to form omni pattern, low end went to F8 in omni setting!

I wanted these alternative capsules to be good so bad, even unrightfully attacked Tim for being biased. Right now i kinda regret even trying these out. I could have just added couple more bucks and ordered CK12 from a reputable manufacturer.

As Marik said it should be posible to come up with new, updated desigh of this capsule which could be in theory constructed and manufactured without tuning issues utilizing modern low tolerance machinery. I am becoming more and more interested if Austrian Audio succeeded in this with their OC818.

This corresponds with a more popular high end CK12 “clone” that I have. The low end has omni type response in cardioid, among other discrepancies. It was confusing at first.

 

[Icantthinkofaname]

At current state they don't seem to know what this capsule is even supposed to do. Tuning it is not like turning a screw little bit to the right or left. So i can't imagine how they might be able to do what you are describing.
I have basically all the blueprints i need, measuring setup, various re-skin alternatives, and i've spent 3 days on tuning one of them, and i'm not quite there yet.

The other part of the issue is that they can sell you anything and you won't be able to test it's performance by ear. Unless you have a good one to compare it to. Nailing that off-axis sound you mentioned, and making it work in all the patterns is INSANELY DIFFICULT.

I'll give you an example: I managed to tune it to my liking, and work and measure just nice in cardioid. Only to find out the low end in cardioid actually went to omni, and once i used both diaphragms to form omni pattern, low end went to F8 in omni setting!

I wanted these alternative capsules to be good so bad, even unrightfully attacked Tim for being biased. Right now i kinda regret even trying these out. I could have just added couple more bucks and ordered CK12 from a reputable manufacturer.

As Marik said it should be posible to come up with new, updated desigh of this capsule which could be in theory constructed and manufactured without tuning issues utilizing modern low tolerance machinery. I am becoming more and more interested if Austrian Audio succeeded in this with their OC818.

I didn't think it'd be something super easy like that, but I thought maybe it could have something to do with how the chambers are put in. But like I said I know very little about the actual construction of the capsule.

OT so i won't go too far into detail but I have brass CK12's in my B-ULS's and they are really quite excellent imo. They are much brighter than the stock capsule (which is more 'flat' than dark imo), but in a very nice smooth way. A quality CK12 here is a great alternative, even tho, like you, I love the stock sound of the B-ULS for what it is.

At least on my voice I definitely find it dark. When I think of a flat but not dark mic I'm thinking of Schoeps or some of the Sennheiser SDCs, or the Line Audio CM4. Maybe my capsule could use a cleaning, or maybe the transformer is making it sound darker than I thought it would. Still love it for a utility LDC, I just greatly prefer small diaphragm condensers.

 

[paulcheeba]

You can tell a lot about them from their sales technique. Alex is in a real rush for feedback and an MOQ order. When dealing with Manufacturers of quality electronics they give you time and space to consider the options. In other words they are not desperate. This was an experiment that didn't work. There will be guys taking more time, getting closer though for sure.
I bought 3 x 414 era AKG and 2 x Beesneez brass capsules instead.

 

[paulcheeba]

Thanks for posting this!
Looking at the frequency measurements and electrical parameters a it's a obviously a mile off in many ways.
I won't describe the why as I don't want help with their R&D. but I'll suffice to say that you don't need the blueprints or access to AKG to reverse the ck12, although it would make the process much more expedient and and infinitely easier.... You do however need an extreme level of attention to detail and persistence to crack the many layers Ck12 code. I can see why AKG gave up on it as it's not built for mass production, but rather sonic perfection.

Hi Mark, can you point me towards some decent audio samples of your capsules? I'm sure I heard one somewhere the other day with a deep smooth bass but I can't find it again.

 

[OPR]

Hi Mark, can you point me towards some decent audio samples of your capsules? I'm sure I heard one somewhere the other day with a deep smooth bass but I can't find it again.

Hey Paul, There's a few samples floating around, this one is handy as it has a vocal comparison of my C12 and older version 251 with a U48 and U67 for reference.
And here's a female vocal in Ck12 a U87 circuit.

There are more samples on that channel with other instruments guitar drums.etc
Send me an email if you want more.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

There's a few samples floating around, this one is handy as it has a vocal comparison of my C12 and older version 251 with a U48 and U67 for reference.

All these takes sound remarkably similar, although purists would disagree, particularly considering two are center-terminated and the two others are edge-terminated, which is supposed to make a night and day difference.

 

[kingkorg]

The difference would be night and day under right conditions where off axis bleed play more significant part. Overheads, drum room, orchestral recording... On simple vocal takes like this even EQ correction and emulation of different models at 0° incidence does wonders.

 

[ricardo]

I'll give you an example: I managed to tune it to my liking, and work and measure just nice in cardioid. Only to find out the low end in cardioid actually went to omni,

All double diaphragm variable pattern capsules do this below some frequency. There's a SHURE paper explaining this which used to be in the MicBuilder's Files.

and once i used both diaphragms to form omni pattern, low end went to F8 in omni setting!

Not sure how this can happen unless there are serious leaks from the internal chambers to ambient.

BTW, I think the best way to 'tune' a double diaphragm variable pattern mike is to go for good and equal front & back Fig-8 responses. Then getting good omni is much easier and good cardioid should fall out in the wash. But I've never designed a double diaphragm capsule for real so take what dis beach bum says with a big pinch of salt.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

The difference would be night and day under right conditions where off axis bleed play more significant part. Overheads, drum room, orchestral recording... On simple vocal takes like this even EQ correction and emulation of different models at 0° incidence does wonders.

I agree 100%. Actually I think this shootout is useless because it doesn't strictly compare the same segments, the singer is not good enough and almost any half-decent mic in this position would produce a perfectly usable result.

 

[OPR]

I agree 100%. Actually I think this shootout is useless because it doesn't strictly compare the same segments, the singer is not good enough and almost any half-decent mic in this position would produce a perfectly usable result.

A single voice it's not ideal but the differences are still audible (to me) even through my phone speakers ,but maybe i know what to listen out for.
But like most shootouts take it with a grain of salt.
It is what it is..

The difference would be night and day under right conditions where off axis bleed play more significant part. Overheads, drum room, orchestral recording... On simple vocal takes like this even EQ correction and emulation of different models at 0° incidence does wonders.

Absolutely agree!Not just off axis and bleed but straight up sonics, transient behavior and resolution. Voices have their limitations in revealing the sonic differences. a simple strummed chord on an acoustic guitar would have revealed more.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

A single voice it's not ideal but the differences are still audible (to me) even through my phone speakers ,but maybe i know what to listen out for.

Indeed there are, but none stands out as "best". As I said, they're all of high quality. Being spoilt for choice is not a comfortable position.
When microphones attain this level of quality, as many others do, the talent's quality becomes ultra dominant.

 

[OPR]

All of the mics in the test have unique sonic qualities so "best" is a subjective rather than an objective observation as it depends on context and personal taste.