Panasonic 'Audio' Capacitors...

[thermionic]

Hi,

Usually I am dubious of any component stamped 'audio grade' as it can be a means to extract more cash from the gullible audiophile. However, Panasonic AM caps intrigue me. In contrast to most components geared at the audio buff, these are invariably cheaper than the industry-standard FC caps - as much as 50% in some cases.

Is there anything that jumps out at you in the 'specs that suggests the AM has something that will potentially distinguish it from the FC?

I've been using FC for years now. They claim low impedance, and from an empirical perspective, they've consistently scored over specialist 'audio' caps in blind listening tests I've performed (with professional ears).

AM: http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/319799.pdf

FC: http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/94578.pdf

Panasonic have gotten it wrong here. If they really want 'audiophiles' to take their caps seriously they should charge ten times more and give them a gaudy gold colour scheme.

Justin

 

[Biasrocks]

AM: http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/319799.pdf

FC: http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/94578.pdf

Panasonic have gotten it wrong here. If they really want 'audiophiles' to take their caps seriously they should charge ten times more and give them a gaudy gold colour scheme.

Justin

Hi Justin

The first thing that jumps out is that the AM series is rated for 85 degrees and the FC is rated at 105 degrees, hence longer life.

Ordering up a few for a listening session would probably be your best bet.

Mark

 

[mrclunk]

I recently bought some of the new FM series Panasonic's, not sure if they're related?
On paper they look better than the FC series and i think i read they are to replace the fc series.
RS carries them.

 

[jsteiger]

I recently bought some of the new FM series Panasonic's, not sure if they're related?
On paper they look better than the FC series and i think i read they are to replace the fc series.
RS carries them.

I use the FM's when I can then the FC's. You are right, the FM's do look better on paper and they are cheaper too. The only drawback is that the FM's are not available in all the values that the FC's are. I don't know if they are a replacement for the FC's or not.

 

[okgb]

I like the Elna's that digikey stocks
not allot of values and only 25/35 v
but they seem to clean up a circuit
[as is tighter , more clear ]

 

[QUEEF BAG]

I like the FM as first choice, if it's available in the value I need.  It's great for coupling with very low impedance, low tan, and it sounds good-nice high end, no need for bypass caps. I can't find anything better for filtering either. Look at those ripple specs!

Panasonic FC or United Chemicon KZE is where I look for values that are not available with the FM series

And they are all very inexpensive.

I am trying to find axial caps that come even a little close to these, but no luck so far.
Phillips/Vishay BC are good at coupling, but I wouldn't use 'em for filtering (yeah, neve and a lot of other
great manufacturers use them in power filtering, but I think that's because of their construction made them most reliable).

The only Nichicon cap that seems attractive is the HE series, though I have not done as much listening to
that one yet.

j

 

[PRR]

"Separator: Manila hemp"

Canned pot... that's gotta sound groovy.

 

[bahrens]

"Separator: Manila hemp"

Canned pot... that's gotta sound groovy.

Yeah, maybe you WANT to let the smoke outta this one, eh?

 

[okgb]

O.k. it doesn't matter what you use and your English drawmer with a thousand caps
sounds great as it is  [ not my experience ! ]
And what about us who don't smoke ?

 

[SSLtech]

"Separator: Manila hemp"...

... that's gotta sound groovy.

being that it's 'MANILA', it might be good for use in an envelope detector?

Keef

 

[Kingston]

ba-dum-tsihh.

I like the Elna's that digikey stocks
not allot of values and only 25/35 v
but they seem to clean up a circuit
[as is tighter , more clear ]

I only recently found out digikey sells these really cheap as well. This far I've paid premium elsewhere. I also agree, they are very transparent. Haven't heard a place where they did not sound good.

[edit]

PS. I only recently discovered just how much difference an Electrolytic cap brand can make in sound (I knew about film caps already). From what little testing I did between the standard stuff I had (panasonic, nichicon, these elnas) I found the Elnas best. It's still a very subtle difference. Probably unimportant to most people.

 

[radiance]

PS. I only recently discovered just how much difference an Electrolytic cap brand can make in sound (I knew about film caps already). From what little testing I did between the standard stuff I had (panasonic, nichicon, these elnas) I found the Elnas best. It's still a very subtle difference. Probably unimportant to most people.

I did some comparison tests between panasonic FC, NGH, Elna silmic II, Elna starget.
I had them all connected to a rotary switch so switching between them was instant...
They where all bypassed with a 100n Wima and I think because of THAT I could not hear any difference.
This might be due to them being all in the same league though...dunno.
Next time I'll try some cheap caps as well.

 

[Kingston]

They where all bypassed with a 100n Wima and I think because of THAT I could not hear any difference.

Funny, I did the same with a 100n Panasonic SMF. The 100n bypass actually made things worse! This was in both GSSL input and output and since there are caps in series and parallel, and in stereo, the effect was more pronounced (listening to eight caps in total, actually 16 with the 100n bypasses). Elna Silmic alone worked best. When I get a scope someday, I plan to do this again. Based on this experiment I think one only needs this kind of bypasses with really bad quality electrolytic caps.

[edit]

somewhat off topic, but GSSL actually works just fine with no caps at all in audio path input and output in a controlled environment (where you know no one will hit 48V in any direction by accident). It sounds ever so slightly more transparent (basically a bit better stereo image the way I heard it) without them, but maybe even a bit harsh. I preferred the Elnas compared to that as well.

 

[Gordy]

A little off-topic, but still relevant: bypassing is for applications where you need to compensate for the imperfect characteristics of a capacitor with the imperfect characteristics of another capacitor. Typically this is useful in linear power supplies where the cap is strapped between V+ (V-) and ground. It is NOT to be used in-line in stage-to-stage (or output) AC coupling. Using bypassed capacitors in-line will simply add the imperfections of the capacitors together and degrade the overall performance. Subjectively this is often perceived as 'smearing' of the sound.

If you see inter-stage caps (or output caps) bypassed with smaller caps (for example in an Audio Research Corporation preamp) it is because the designer is swayed by sentiment and trend rather than true engineering values. It's a sad-but-true hi-fi fact.

 

[Jonte Knif]

More off topic:

Using bypassed capacitors in-line will simply add the imperfections of the capacitors together and degrade the overall performance. Subjectively this is often perceived as 'smearing' of the sound.

Perhaps, how ever I can not see how literally pretty much perfect MKP cap can do any harm, but perhaps doesn't help either.

But, folks, guess which manufacturer:

We have invested significant effort listening to AC coupling (phantom blocking) methods. Exotic poly caps and electrolytics (or lack of) do not necessarily translate into sonic reality. Our HV-series coupling method was painstakingly chosen as a matched set of very low impedance, high voltage electrolytics bypassed with polyethylene terephthalate film capacitors. In our final designs, we found nothing more dynamically stable and musically satisfying.

Polyethylene Terephthalate is polyester, PET, PES

Sure polyester doesn't sound as fancy as the other name And I guess MKP is really exotic poly cap, right?

Not that the product is bad, that would be a ridiculous claim.

-Jonte

 

[radiance]

Funny, I did the same with a 100n Panasonic SMF. The 100n bypass actually made things worse!

I never thought of removing the 100n (In the end I ditched all caps and used a servo LOL) .... I thought the 100n's are needed because they charge faster as the electrolytic, and thus improve transients and the high frequencies in general.

I have to say that I'm not very good in hearing subtle differences, or maybe I can not be bothered, I don't know. Maybe it's because I'm more a musician than a producer/mastering kind of guy.