Panasonic Electrolytic Caps different Series - Opinions

[Whoops]

Mouser publishes more data than Farnell.
For 100uf 25V they have 10 different series, 7 of then have almost the same price.

They include in the specs "Ripple Current" and "Dissipation Factor".
Also include ESR although they don't show the value for most of the series.

They also catalog each of the series in 4 different ways "General Purpose", "High Temperature", "Low ESR" and "Low Impedance"
Strange that FC is called "High Temperature" but has the same rating as FR or FM and as most of the others.
FR is cataloged as Low ESR.
FM is cataloged as Low Impedance although in the chart I posted some posts ago it shows that FR has lower impedance than FM.

EB series is one the cheapest, but has 105 temp rating and the highest Life expectancy rating of 7000 hours.
Is this the Deal?

SERIES	M	NHG	FR	FC	EB	FM	KS-A	GA	TA	HD
Product	General Purpose	General Purpose	Low ESR	High Temp	General Purpose	Low Impedance	General Purpose	General Purpose	General Purpose	General Purpose
Tolerance	20%	20%	20%	20%	20%	20%	20%	20%	20%	20%
Diameter	6,3	6,3	6,3	6,3	6,3	6	8	-	8	6,3
Height	11,2	11,2	11,2	11	11	11	5	-	11,5	11,2
Temperature MAX	85	105	105	105	105	105	85	105	125	105
Temperature MIN	-40	-55	-40	-55	-40	-40	-40	-55	-40	-55
Life	2000	1000	5000	1000	7000	2000	1000	-	2000	1000
Ripple Current:	180mA	130mA	455mA	290mA	95mA	455mA	85mA	-	500mA	130mA
Dissipation Factor DF	0,16	-	0,14	-	-	-	0,14	-	-	-
ESR	-	-	130M	350M	-	-	-	-	130M	-
Leakage Current:	-	-	-	-	-	-	3uA	-	-	-
PRICE (10)	0,136	0.169	0,186	0,152	0,137	0,162	0,158	0,258	0,438	0,441

Pretty confusing to choose...
If I choose for 105 temp or higher, then there's 8 series left.
If I then choose by lower price there's still 5 series left.
By life rating above 2000, there's still 3 series left...

Did Panasonic do so many series just to confuse us?

 

[Whoops]

What is the impact of a Lytic capacitor being Lower impedance for our DIY audio work?

Does it matter?

 

[megasat16]

Does it matter?

Honestly, I don't care about ESR for audio but you would be asking the wrong person for that matter. I hope someone with more knowledge will chime in.

IMO, I hope you have fun playing with the a few different caps for audio use! It just cost a bit of money ordering a few different ones to see if you hear any difference.

I am going to be busy playing with my old phone tonight so I hope someone else will chime in soon.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

What is the impact of a Lytic capacitor being Lower impedance for our DIY audio work?

First, I would like to know what Pana means by "low impedance". The reactance of a 100uF cap is supposed to be the same whatever the technology.
Do they mean they are recommanded for low Z circuits? Or are they characterized by low parasitics, of which ESR is most often the dominant?
Do they mean low series inductance? It's utterly confusing....

Does it matter?

Except the very few cases where used with very-low-Z sources, I doubt it.
[speculation] Now some capacitors may generate chemically-induced noise, which would be unconsequential for smps, but a problem for transmitting audio. [/speculation]

 

[abbey road d enfer]

EB series is one the cheapest, but has 105 temp rating and the highest Life expectancy rating of 7000 hours.
Is this the Deal?

There are many factors in the pricing of a component.
If one series becomes "popular", the price may vary according to the mfgr policy. If they want to make a niche product and gross short-term money, they will increase the price, if they want to keep long-term customers they will reduce the price.
A capacitor you buy in singles may cost 10x the price of buying 10k off. They cost the same to manufacture. The difference is in the commercialization process.
Price is not an indicator of quality. Period.

 

[neil.johnson]

Mouser publishes more data than Farnell.

Don't ever trust what distributors have on their websites. Get the manufacturer's latest datasheets, ideally from the manufacturer's websites. Far too many times I find mistakes on disti websites, heck most of the time they can't get the picture right, what chance the specs?

 

[JohnRoberts]

What is the impact of a Lytic capacitor being Lower impedance for our DIY audio work?

Not much if at all

Does it matter?

Capacitors do not operate in a vacuum but are combined with other components to form useful circuit functions. In a DC blocking application the capacitor is generally loaded by a relatively high impedance to ground. The ESR creates a simple voltage divider with this load R... I wouldn't bother doing that math.

As has already been shared something like in series with gain setting pot in a cohen topology. There in series with low single digit ohms it might matter if really poor (same for pot hop off resistance).

JR

 

[Whoops]

Thank you all for your input and comments

 

[ricardo]

PS; How are you doing? still living on the beach in Oz?

Yup. Still a beach bum but a couple of incidents suggest it might be prudent to move somewhere with better hospitals. The plus side is that Cooktown is very far from Covid hotspots.
___________________________________________
The DIYaudio thread on my MC preamp confirmed loadsa stuff I found circa 1980 but also some new tidbits.

Among the supa dupa Electrolytics which emerged when I disappeared into the bush are these 'polymer' electrolytics.
https://www.digikey.com.au/product-detail/en/nichicon/PCG0E472MCL1GS/493-4582-1-ND/2786879
They have very low ESR for SMPS but also higher 'noise'. A couple of links in that thread suggest this is from higher leakage. But the noise sounds 'similar' to Tants (which of course have very low leakage)

Cheapo
https://www.digikey.sg/product-detail/en/rubycon/10PX3300MEFC10X20/1189-1056-ND/3133989
worked a lot better for these very low noise circuits.

I should point out we are talking about noise levels circa 280pV/rt(Hz) ie -148dBV over 20kHz so your application may not be bothered

Tant noise levels however are much higher and easily annoying in microphone circuits. The DIYaudio thread has links to the various mechanisms.

I'm not sure which (if any) of the Panasonics are 'polymer'.

In general, for the same capacitance, a higher voltage rating item usually has lower ESR so preferred for something like the feedback in a 'Cohen' type mike preamp, THAT 1520 etc. But physical size is also important for LN stuff.
________________________
I hope yus guys have figured out I'm very much into 'audible' faults though I'm always happy to help the Marketing VP with BS for 'improved clarity & definition'.

In my previous life, I was a true DBLT guru. Nearly 2 decades of conducting DBLTs gives one a good idea how to recognise who is deaf. In fact when you start doing DBLTs, you soon find out who is deaf ... as well as how difficult it is to do them properly.

 

[john12ax7]

If you are gonna get a few and do listening tests then get some bipolar as well. They typically have lower distortion, or at least they used to, not sure if there have been more modern improvements since Cyril Bateman did his tests (a worthy read if it hasn't already been mentioned).

 

[Whoops]

If you are gonna get a few and do listening tests then get some bipolar as well.

Where you asking me?

I will not do any listening tests at all, I just wanted to ask your opinions about the different Panasonic series and your experience.
And also reason a bit with you about the reasons to maybe choose one over the other.

Thanks

 

[MediaWorksOKC]

Hello,

For any interested party that reads this far in the future, compassionate condolences, the great cap debates/wars/quicksand are unfortunately endless and, if you are indeed ultimately concerned with sound quality above all else (otherwise having addressed electrical/mechanical minimums and suitability/quality/quantity/availability concerns, etc,) as I am, I can only humbly suggest that one acquires as many of the parts in question of differing manufacture and model as you can and simply listen for yourself. Very few will do this, most won’t and that’s fine.

You can buy 20 or 100 of each component, preferably consecutively taped/reeled, selecting out exacting pairs to the limit of your ability to test them and switch them in and out (or in a single channel of a multi-channelled) strict control device where no other variable but the season has changed. “Yawn, why bother, who cares.” I cared for a minute or ten years and did my self-imposed due diligence. If you are willing and able you will find sound quality differences in otherwise similar/identical components, defined by standard electrical characteristics reasonably assured/believed to be in and on spec. Who has the time to waste on such frivolity? I did. I spent a lot of time on this issue (and a few others) and I’m not asking for it back. I heard significant and consistent differences across multiple control devices over time and developed preferences accordingly whether coupling or power. (Sorry, no sample and hold, photoflash or supercap (or other exotics) testing was performed—just basic electrolytic/film in AC signal coupling and DC power supply applications as found in consumer/pro/fine home/studio audio products of all types/stripes/prices.)

We could discuss why that may be possible (or may not be possible) until we’re dead, and no worries, we will.

I simply decided to cut to the chase to find parts that I prefer the sound/effect of (or lack of sound or effect) in a particular device. For me it became a distillation process ending up with a few clearly superior—to me—options in/with differing applications/intentions.

No cap at all is the best cap as they say (but they could be lying) but we also live in the real world where they are often necessary because reasons and in my opinion should be considered qualitatively sound-wise to the degree that one is willing and capable. Some will say my formulations are merely wrong and useless, that direct specific like for like experimentation is impossible/pointless/irresponsible/negligent/annoying, that’s also fine. I could be wrong 100% and will have to live with the consequences of my actions.

All kidding aside, I did the work, and found the answers that satisfy the “sound” question for me personally, in my devices. Wasn’t the first, won’t be the last. It was rewarding and revelatory and is an on-going process. I only suggest you can do the same.

Any truly interested party is free to contact me privately.

—Chris

 

[abbey road d enfer]

I've found this document:
https://industry.panasonic.eu/produ...inum-electrolytic-capacitors-radial-lead-typewhere one can (actually should) be able to evaluate the various possibilities.
At least I had the answer to my earlier question. What means "low impedance?". Well the answer is simple, it's the actual impedance measured at 100kHz (no mention of voltage conditions).
I haven't browsed all the categories but so far I haven't seen an axplicit mention of ESR.
At 100kHz, the dominant factor determining impedance is the ESR, so I think we could consider them being equivalent. Low impedance = low ESR.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

Any truly interested party is free to contact me privately.

I'm truly interested, but my experience is that every time a capacitor could be "heard", it was because it was unproperly implemented.
The most common happenstance being in passive speaker x-overs. IMO, electrolytic capacitors in x-overs are improper, period. Electrolytic capacitors should not be submitted to large AC voltages because they are definitely non-linear.
In line-level aplications, used for AC coupling, they should be of a sufficiently high value that no significant AC voltage develops, which means using values much higher (50-100x) than the value based on -3dB response.

 

[JohnRoberts]

I'm truly interested, but my experience is that every time a capacitor could be "heard", it was because it was unproperly implemented.
The most common happenstance being in passive speaker x-overs. IMO, electrolytic capacitors in x-overs are improper, period. Electrolytic capacitors should not be submitted to large AC voltages because they are definitely non-linear.
In line-level aplications, used for AC coupling, they should be of a sufficiently high value that no significant AC voltage develops, which means using values much higher (50-100x) than the value based on -3dB response.

Sadly, last I checked electrolytic caps were still widely used in passive loudspeaker crossovers, because of the cost. I'm sure they make caps designed for that application and they probably aren't as bad as they were.

I shared this story before, but last century I approved an engineering change to substitute a film cap (polypropylene) into a passive loudspeaker crossover because it was the right thing to do, and the speaker engineer's immediate boss refused to sign the engineering change order that caused a $0.20 cost increase because of corporate politics. It was not my immediate area of engineering responsibility, but I had the authority and chose to spend my political capital that way.

JR

 

[dyamakuchi]

I visited BLA headquarters in Chicago around that time while I was traveling in the US.
It was an open space on the first floor of a wharehouse (maybe second or third floor, but not gorund floor).
People were really nice and a fellow worker gave me a tour of the premises.
A lot of soldering benches on that open space.

what was the A/D you designed? how was it called?

Second floor on Cuyler. Sparrow mkII. There were a few versions. Great bunch.

I am indeed in favour of paralleling electrolytics and ceramic caps

Pricey, but effective. Try some film caps too IMO.

Tants have 2 'types' of noise.

We tested them for 'popcorn noise.'

X% THD on 1mV is also X% when the signal is amplified 10 000 times

Because the headroom does not generally increase with the gain, you can gain the distortion up to as high a percentage as you like.

the great cap debates/wars/quicksand are unfortunately endless

Amen.

I approved an engineering change to substitute a film cap (polypropylene) into a passive loudspeaker crossover because it was the right thing to do

Sometimes it's not a easy to agree (or even tell) what the right thing is. Other times they want to save a few pennies by using substandard parts.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

Sadly, last I checked electrolytic caps were still widely used in passive loudspeaker crossovers, because of the cost. I'm sure they make caps designed for that application and they probably aren't as bad as they were.

That is certainly the case with cheap (or not so cheap) products, but when you investigate Meyer Sound, Adamson, L Acoustics, d&b, the real big names, they all use film caps in their passive x-overs.
In my 40 years of loudspeaker design, I have never used anything else than SCR (polypropylene) film caps, with the exception of large 4700uF caps connected head-to-tail when amp failure resulted in large DC output. A case of safety takes over on performance.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

Because the headroom does not generally increase with the gain, you can gain the distortion up to as high a percentage as you like.

I considered from the start that we were discussing well-designed product and proper usage.

 

[JohnRoberts]

That is certainly the case with cheap (or not so cheap) products, but when you investigate Meyer Sound, Adamson, L Acoustics, d&b, the real big names, they all use film caps in their passive x-overs.
In my 40 years of loudspeaker design, I have never used anything else than SCR (polypropylene) film caps, with the exception of large 4700uF caps connected head-to-tail when amp failure resulted in large DC output. A case of safety takes over on performance.

This is becoming moot as modern powered speakers use active crossovers that if done in DSP don't even use any caps.

I spent 15 years working at a "value" audio gear manufacturer (Peavey) and BOM cost mattered. Being good performance for the money is the crux of design engineering IMO.

JR

 

[JohnRoberts]

Amen.

Sometimes it's not a easy to agree (or even tell) what the right thing is. Other times they want to save a few pennies by using substandard parts.

In this case the engineering director over transducer engineering was afraid for his boss to catch him increasing the cost of an existing sku by approving a production engineering change that increased cost. So he clearly did not make a serious cost/benefit decisions, but rejected it outright because of fear about corporate politics. I do not expect that dielectric difference to be audible to 90% of Peavey's customers (or more), but it could be audible to that one design engineer and I wanted to keep him motivated to excel with his future design efforts (he was my one in-house golden ear even though he wasn't working directly for me). It was not a significant cost increase. In fact I think that engineer negotiated a special price from the cap vendor who was trying to get his nose inside the tent.

JR