Panasonic Electrolytic Caps different Series - Opinions

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ESR is not very relevant for audio, Panasonic caps are great, they also have a very long life time and they are rated at 105C.
There is one application where ESR is important in audio. It's very low signal & noise levels (circa 280pV/rt(Hz) ) with MC cartridges.
Richard Lee's Ultra low Noise MC Head Amp - diyAudio
This huge thread examines the topic. A lot of noise from certain contributors, but also practical tests which confirm my experience from circa 1980

If I were to sum up ... low ESR isn't everything. In fact, some of the new supa Electrolytics (for SMPS with very low ESR) have poor noise. This applies to 'polymer' electrolytics and also to Tantalums which I would never use in a high quality audio setting.

I like the plain Aluminium Lo Leakage Electrolytics from Panasonic. Usually, higher voltage items have better ESR but physical size is also important in LN work.
 
There is one application where ESR is important in audio. It's very low signal & noise levels (circa 280pV/rt(Hz) ) with MC cartridges.
Richard Lee's Ultra low Noise MC Head Amp - diyAudio
This huge thread examines the topic. A lot of noise from certain contributors, but also practical tests which confirm my experience from circa 1980

If I were to sum up ... low ESR isn't everything. In fact, some of the supa Electrolytics (for SMPS with very low ESR) have poor noise. This applies to 'polymer' electrolytics and also to Tantalums which I would never use in a high quality audio setting.

I like the plain Aluminium Lo Leakage Electrolytics from Panasonic. Usually, higher voltage items have better ESR but physical size is also important in LN work.
i'm sure that there are isolated applications like the MC cartridge you mention, but for most it is not important.
 
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That's exactly what I pointed at. How can one make a choice when they present seemingly conflicting parameters?

This diagram is incomprehensible. How can one find the right mix of the three parameters? It should be 3-dimensional.

The "right" mix will always be a compromise, so depending on the parameters of your circuit, you get to choose the "best" compromise that suits you and your priorities.

And those parameters aren't necessarily conflicting. Sometimes you're looking for a certain ESR range (because real world & tolerances) that your regulating circuitry requires to be stable; that usually comes with reasonable ripple figures, more often than not. Sometimes you need certain ripple current capabilities, with zero regard for ESR. They're not mutually exclusive, despite what a 2D diagram may or may not indicate.

Oh, and while all the low-ESR series (obviously) have the ESR clearly specified, high-ripple series don't necessarily have their ESR or impedance specified, so there's that too.
 
There is one application where ESR is important in audio. It's very low signal & noise levels (circa 280pV/rt(Hz) ) with MC cartridges.
Richard Lee's Ultra low Noise MC Head Amp - diyAudio
This huge thread examines the topic. A lot of noise from certain contributors, but also practical tests which confirm my experience from circa 1980

If I were to sum up ... low ESR isn't everything. In fact, some of the new supa Electrolytics (for SMPS with very low ESR) have poor noise. This applies to 'polymer' electrolytics and also to Tantalums which I would never use in a high quality audio setting.

I like the plain Aluminium Lo Leakage Electrolytics from Panasonic. Usually, higher voltage items have better ESR but physical size is also important in LN work.
I may have already mentioned that ESR "could" be significant in passive loudspeaker crossovers.

Likewise there are several low current low impedance circuits. In series with a MC cart (nominally 10 ohms) could arguably be one (my last, only, MC pre design last century was DC coupled input). Another is in series with mic preamp gain pots for popular Cohen topology. Again it is possible to DC couple that using a DC servo. That said a DC servo still has a capacitor in the path but typically a higher quality film cap. I am guilty of cap coupling gain pots in many value (Peavey) designs. The customers hate scratchy pots more than electrolytic caps. :cool:

JR
 
The customers hate scratchy pots more than electrolytic caps. :cool:

JR

Me also, I really can't stand Scratchy pots it really makes me going mental.

Produced a record in Abbey Road studio 3, had real Fairchild compressors to try out for the first time.
Studio had 2, I ordered 2 more from the floating equipment list, so had 4 in total in the studio.

All of the 4 Faichild units had scratchy pots, it really distracted me, to this day I don't know if real Fairchilds sounded good or not.
During the mix phase I used the bombfactory plugin emulator, that one sounds pretty good, no scratchy pots ever.
 
The "pots" in a Fairchild 660/670 are actually stepped attenuators. Maybe it's the "stepped" volume changes you took for scratchiness... ?
Yes you are right I remember now, sorry they weren’t pots, it was the rotary switches. When you changed switch position it cut the sound in and out and made a lot of noises, it was not nice.

Sorry for the side talk
 
Since you asked for an opinion. I have recapped consoles over many years with FC's.
Taking into account 'space constraints'. They sound ok in my opinion.
It is a subjective opinion.
 
Since you asked for an opinion. I have recapped consoles over many years with FC's.
Taking into account 'space constraints'. They sound ok in my opinion.
It is a subjective opinion.
I did some work for a place that was grossing over a MILLION dollars a year replacing caps and opamps in other manufacturers equipment. I've also been around and around the capacitor merry-go-round with many, many engineers at multiple major international manufacturers.

Here's what I know:

However, the way the electrodes are formed may have some effect on other parameters
Physical construction of caps is critical. Rigid dielectrics want to 'sing' when subjected to vibration. X7R (and similar ceramic dielectrics) are particularly well known for this. COG is way better for the lowest cost ceramic caps, where performance is still a concern. I'll not throw my hat in the ring endorsing a particular Aluminum cap. None are particularly 'great' IMO but there's usually plenty of reasonably priced options that can do the job...if you need a _bunch_ of µFs.

The single biggest problem with liquid electrolyte types is they leak. The physical dimensions make them such that often a significant torque is applied to the leads as the cap wiggles back and forth with vibration. Industrial PCB manufacturers usually goop some RTV or similar to hold the top of the cap fixed. This can add many years to their lifespan. DO NOT let that electrolyte leak onto your PCB copper. Depending on the chemistry, many (most?) will etch the traces right off the PCB. I've seen them eat right through multilayer boards. Beefy ground plane and all.
You can always spend a fortune on esoteric audiophile grade caps.
In the audio path, the WIMAs seemed to end up in a lot of boxes over the years. Particularly the boxes that seemed like they maybe didn't pinch too many pennies. Film caps generally perform better that 'lytics if you can both afford them and fit them in the box. "Polyrazzmatazz" (as one colleague called it) cost extra, and depending on the quality level of the rest of the system, may not be warranted.

EDIT: BTW, film caps tend to fail gracefully, 'self-healing' and just losing a bit of capacitance. They last, effectively, forever compared to the Aluminum lytics.
This applies to 'polymer' electrolytics and also to Tantalums which I would never use in a high quality audio setting.
My old boss, who taught me a _lot_ about audio, used to swear by solid Tantalums in the audio path. He used 'large' (0.47-10µF) 16V ones for AC coupling filter stages together. He's the only one I ever knew that preferred them, but he was pretty sharp, and he knew his stuff. IDK, never having tried them because:

The cell phone folks prefer Tantalum caps for size and weight. When cell phones took off late '90s, you basically couldn't get them if you weren't SONY or Motorola. This actually led to an (AFAIK) ongoing humanitarian crisis. For details see:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantalum#Status_as_a_conflict_resource
I'd rather not fuel that particular fire. The problem is cell phones are rather handy...

cut the sound in and out and made a lot of noises, it was not nice.

At one place I worked we used to say: "There's three kinds of audio. Works, doesn't work, and sounds funny. And sounds funny is pretty close to doesn't work."

Their idea of sounds funny could be rather particular too, but as you might guess, cost _was_ a huge factor in cap selection there. :)

BTW: Good microphones and speakers, with proper gain structure and, naturally, a good _source_ usually goes a lot farther that all the schmantzy opamps and caps combined. You can mix the best musicians on the cheapest gear out there, and get them to sound good, if you know what you're doing. But if the kid can't sing in key, or the drummer can't count to four, all the 990s in the world aren't really going to help much.
 
I did some work for a place that was grossing over a MILLION dollars a year replacing caps and opamps in other manufacturers equipment. I've also been around and around the capacitor merry-go-round with many, many engineers at multiple major international manufacturers.
That's a lot of rework
Here's what I know:


Physical construction of caps is critical. Rigid dielectrics want to 'sing' when subjected to vibration.
The only capacitors I encountered (over decades) that were microphonic, were blatantly faulty.

For a capacitor to affect signal due to vibration the capacitor plates must be moving wrt each other. That would modulate the capacitance, but I've never encountered that.

X7R (and similar ceramic dielectrics) are particularly well known for this. COG is way better for the lowest cost ceramic caps, where performance is still a concern.
COG/NPO are as good as it gets (I loved polystyrene dielectric but not very robust in the factory).

I'll not throw my hat in the ring endorsing a particular Aluminum cap. None are particularly 'great' IMO but there's usually plenty of reasonably priced options that can do the job...if you need a _bunch_ of µFs.
There's a place for them obviously, many many millions are used.
The single biggest problem with liquid electrolyte types is they leak.
I've seen my share of that, my old employer used millions of them every month. The rubber bung, that seals in the liquid electrolyte works pretty well. They are designed to afford a pressure relief, so if overheating pressurizes the inside of the capacitor, they are designed to leak (to release the pressure). Over the years I encountered numerous capacitor problems. We actually had an x-ray machine on the factory floor that allowed us to look inside the can, but not that revealing. I generally had to cut them open and take them apart. The oddest capacitor problem I encountered was when one capacitor manufacturer's lead swaging machine (in electrolytic caps the foil plate is mechanically swaged to the wire lead) tooling broke. I got a call from QA saying that they were getting odd out of tolerance measurements from a recent shipment of caps. QA testing to "AQL" (acceptable quality level) says if you test a small batch and one or two fail, test more. But this time the 1,000uF caps that were out of tolerance were measuring only nF... obviously faulty. I hopped in my car and ran out the the factory to grab a few capacitors to dissect. I found inside the good caps the foil was being held to the lead by a thread, the bad ones were not attached at all. The really bad news is that the caps that were barely attached measured good and many made it through the factory production lines.

I ended up pulling finished goods from the warehouse to replace the caps, and even recalled one container of finished goods that was already headed overseas. The capacitor manufacturer bent over backwards to make us whole (we were a very large customer).
The physical dimensions make them such that often a significant torque is applied to the leads as the cap wiggles back and forth with vibration. Industrial PCB manufacturers usually goop some RTV or similar to hold the top of the cap fixed.
I have never experienced problems with typical electrolytic capacitors lead integrity. I did have trouble passing our QA shake tests with relatively massive Mylar (polyester) caps. I preferred film over electrolytic for audio paths. Those massive Mylars required board adhesive (glyptol?)
This can add many years to their lifespan. DO NOT let that electrolyte leak onto your PCB copper. Depending on the chemistry, many (most?) will etch the traces right off the PCB. I've seen them eat right through multilayer boards. Beefy ground plane and all.
I have seen more damage from back up batteries leaking... glad that flash memory made them obsolete.
In the audio path, the WIMAs seemed to end up in a lot of boxes over the years. Particularly the boxes that seemed like they maybe didn't pinch too many pennies. Film caps generally perform better that 'lytics if you can both afford them and fit them in the box. "Polyrazzmatazz" (as one colleague called it) cost extra, and depending on the quality level of the rest of the system, may not be warranted.

EDIT: BTW, film caps tend to fail gracefully, 'self-healing' and just losing a bit of capacitance. They last, effectively, forever compared to the Aluminum lytics.
different caps fail differently, all caps fail though.
My old boss, who taught me a _lot_ about audio, used to swear by solid Tantalums in the audio path. He used 'large' (0.47-10µF) 16V ones for AC coupling filter stages together. He's the only one I ever knew that preferred them, but he was pretty sharp, and he knew his stuff. IDK, never having tried them because:
some people preferred tantalum back in the 70s because of relatively low ESR, but they got a bad rap for shorting across power rails and starting house fires.
The cell phone folks prefer Tantalum caps for size and weight. When cell phones took off late '90s, you basically couldn't get them if you weren't SONY or Motorola. This actually led to an (AFAIK) ongoing humanitarian crisis. For details see:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantalum#Status_as_a_conflict_resource
I'd rather not fuel that particular fire. The problem is cell phones are rather handy...
Late last century the African tantalum supply chain came under the microscope. This may have helped fuel low ESR aluminum development.
At one place I worked we used to say: "There's three kinds of audio. Works, doesn't work, and sounds funny. And sounds funny is pretty close to doesn't work."
Sounds funny is doesn't work.
Their idea of sounds funny could be rather particular too, but as you might guess, cost _was_ a huge factor in cap selection there. :)

BTW: Good microphones and speakers, with proper gain structure and, naturally, a good _source_ usually goes a lot farther that all the schmantzy opamps and caps combined. You can mix the best musicians on the cheapest gear out there, and get them to sound good, if you know what you're doing. But if the kid can't sing in key, or the drummer can't count to four, all the 990s in the world aren't really going to help much.
are we still talking about capacitors?

Sorry I don't mean to sound argumentative, but I have dealt with lots of capacitor problems over the decades. One capacitor distributor tried to hire me away to be his "capacitor guy"... :rolleyes: I am not a capacitor engineer but I know more about them than he did..:cool:

JR
 
Was that Black Lion Audio or Jim Williams?
BLA. I designed a 122dB A/D for them in 2010/11. With their caps.

0.0005% THD+N. It sounded pretty darn good, if I do say so myself.

Those 'mods' appeared to be largely footing that development bill BTW...

That's a lot of rework
They had a whole crew of top flight solder jockeys. Hand soldered every single part. People paid up front weeks or months in advance for them to put _good_ caps and opamps into existing equipment. Clocks too. Lots of different audio interfaces. It really does make a world of difference...with a quality source. For your buddy's garage band, maybe tuners or music lessons is a better investment..IDK. Either way, it's a hell of a business model. IIRC warranty was a headache.

The only capacitors I encountered (over decades) that were microphonic, were blatantly faulty.

For a capacitor to affect signal due to vibration the capacitor plates must be moving wrt each other. That would modulate the capacitance
I was taught X7R is well known for the phenomenon. I suppose now that you mention, I did just take their word for that. However, that bunch was pretty knowledgeable (Shure). I've personally seen lytics that 'THUNK' pretty bad when you tap them though. And cheap ceramics that flat just come apart. IDK.

Physical construction. It's paramount for touring gear at any rate. Studio control rooms are much more forgiving.

I have never experienced problems with typical electrolytic capacitors lead integrity.
Not the leads per se. Where they come thru the bottom tends to want to fail and leak, if I understand it correctly. It's kinda standard practice for radial Aluminum 'lytic caps on industrial stuff. The tall skinny cans in particular. They end up like they're 'standing' on their leads, all the weight of the can pushing down and the leads holding the weight but held immobile by the solder. Then comes the vibration and ...Uh OH!

different caps fail differently
True enough, but the different types tend to have their favorite way to fail. Like transistors: BJTs (and diodes) fail short, FETs fail open. It _can_ be whatever, it's just usually a certain mode for each.

some people preferred tantalum back in the 70s
That particular fellow did come up during that period. I guess I'm not exactly immune to, shall we say... 'dogma' either when it comes to this stuff. Mostly I just try to copy stuff I've seen work reliably. Probably most designers do.

Sorry I don't mean to sound argumentative
You can disagree all you like, I don't mind. You have, clearly, a vast experience that is at least somewhat different than mine. Prove me wrong, and I'll learn something. Questioning things and dialogue are how we learn things. Thanks for the great info amigo! :)
 
BLA. I designed a 122dB A/D for them in 2010/11. With their caps.

0.0005% THD+N. It sounded pretty darn good, if I do say so myself.

I visited BLA headquarters in Chicago around that time while I was traveling in the US.
It was an open space on the first floor of a wharehouse (maybe second or third floor, but not gorund floor).
People were really nice and a fellow worker gave me a tour of the premises.
A lot of soldering benches on that open space.

what was the A/D you designed? how was it called?
 
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