Rack Mixer Decent Quality BankruptLess

[r2d2]

A friend that is looking for a rack mixer with decent audio quality,
without crash into bankruptcy,
to have connected a quite large synths rig, some rack Fxs unit and few mics as well,
the synths rig setup would need the a mixer with following features:
16 double A-B inputs,
only 8 with mic-line option, also with space saver DB25 conn,
as 19" rack format is a fixed space, the inline type seems to be the most suitable solution,
and the double/dual pot for volume, panpot, aux sends and the eq section seems to be the must,
with the following layout :
Each strip with dual input, input A stereo, input B mono,
with volume+pan A.,volume+pan B, and if "unprohibitive" with A-B flip option as well,
aux sends 1-2 fixed, aux 3-4, switchable to 5-6 and assignable to input B,
3 semiparametric eq dual pot section each with freqs sel and +/- gain, with on-off , and "to B" switch,
single insert switch option for each strip, assigned as default to A inputs,
and if required switchable to input B with the flip option (perfect would be dedicated switch for A & B)
channel on-off switch on each input A & B,
L-R main-master bus assigned as default for inputs A & B,
+ a selectable with switch stereo buss 3-4 with dedicated output, for drive a monitor line, or phones as well,

in the master section :
A balanced Master Mix out with dual pot or stereo small fader + insert switch, and stereo meterleds bar,
buss 3-4 out volume pot,
2 control room out, each with dedicated output volume pot + mute switches, and the C-room 1 with mono option switch,
2 headphones out with volume pot,
1 stereo external input, with dedicated to main mix, to control room, to buss 3-4, switches,
3 stereo aux returns each with volume pot, and signal led,

after several searches with rather disappointing results
as it seems that only old models of Roland, Yamaha, Fostex,Tascam and some other,
with limited audio and routings features seem to be available,
... and at so really inproposable prices,

apart some Mackie,
like the old LM3204 main unit expandable with expansion unit,
which is no longer produced,
nor did he have any successors improved-enhanced models,

as Mackie given the demand
have developed the 16ch 1604 VLZ series with small faders,
unfortunately with limited eq section, and no inline option version
like the old Alesis Studio 32, unfortunately it too with limited eq and auxes,
and however both are too cumbersome,

the one that would seems to have many but not all the features suitable for the needs,
as channels number is not enough, eq is not enough enhanced,
the 8 busses section is not required and could be used for other features as abobe,
(probably with different layout and features could become one..)
is the : Xtramix MKII,
but the price is so difficult to understand/digest ,
if no transformers, DOA, Tubes are on audio paths,
but only IC everywhere,
from what is described in various web places,
it would seem that sound very good,

however the price put it really so far away from something like an enhanced Mackie VLZ
with inline option, enhanced eq as above described,
and with double pots solution on the various sections
like the eq, aux sends and faders, reducing its size,
of which the IC sound quality would be sufficient for the purpose,
at a very affordable price,
but will it ever happen ?

Or is the Diy ( even if mpossible ) the only chance about ?

 

[sahib]

What sort of budget has he got for this?

 

[SIXTYNINER]

Given the cost of a new Mackie 1604 VLZ Pro ,
replacing the faders with dual pots etc...
should not be very far from it,

and it is true that the actual offer of keyboards rack mixer panorama
seems to be rather sparsely populated,
so old used ones with absurd prices apart,
despite the so many synths rigs that are out there.

 

[r2d2]

Given the cost of a new Mackie 1604 VLZ Pro ,
replacing the faders with dual pots etc...
should not be very far from it,

Exactly,
it would only be a matter of modifying a production model,
using parts already designed and produced in the past,
and not making from scratch,
so at the end the price would not be much different.

 

[SIXTYNINER]

Frequently is very difficult to understand the reason why the manufacturers
being already in possession (and for a long time...) of everything necessary
(of which the cost has already been recovered, from past sales..)
don't exploit it further to make more money,

in addition to giving a necessary product to their customers,

a real "dark mystery".

 

[JohnRoberts]

Rack mount mixers are a pretty mature category. Back when I dabbled in such stuff (last century) there were some nice ones and some poop. The better ones will carry a price premium. I seem to recall APB making a nice one.

I recall working many trades shows where customers would come into the booth and say, all you need to do is add/change this one feature, and we would sell truckloads. Of course they were convinced that there would be a huge market for that one feature.

JR

 

[r2d2]

Rack mount mixers are a pretty mature category. Back when I dabbled in such stuff (last century) there were some nice ones and some poop. The better ones will carry a price premium. I seem to recall APB making a nice one.

APB DynaSonics ?

I recall working many trades shows where customers would come into the booth and say, all you need to do is add/change this one feature, and we would sell truckloads. Of course they were convinced that there would be a huge market for that one feature.

JR

A "commonplace",
all real "geniuses".... in that context,
...most who don't even know what it says ,
just not to make a mute scene..,

the VLZ series with the inline option with Flip, the enhanced eq,
6 aux sends, and the insert with activation switch,
might be good for most of synths rigs out there,
it is not essential that it be Mackie,
as long as the audio quality is decent.

 

[JohnRoberts]

APB DynaSonics ?

Yes... IIRC the lads designed some nice rack mount mixers for Crest before leaving to form APB.

The Crest stuff if you can find it will probably be cheaper than APB, but more expensive than Mackie.

JR

A "commonplace",
all real "geniuses".... in that context,
...most who don't even know what it says ,
just not to make a mute scene..,

the VLZ series with the inline option with Flip, the enhanced eq,
6 aux sends, and the insert with activation switch,
might be good for most of synths rigs out there,
it is not essential that it be Mackie,
as long as the audio quality is decent.

 

[Spiritworks]

Yes... IIRC the lads designed some nice rack mount mixers for Crest before leaving to form APB.

The Crest stuff if you can find it will probably be cheaper than APB, but more expensive than Mackie.

JR

We have an APB Dynasonics Pro Rack House mixer in our keyboard room, and an APB Pro Desk 832 in our control room. Both are considered live boards, but do really well in a hybrid situation.

 

[r2d2]

We have an APB Dynasonics Pro Rack House mixer in our keyboard room, and an APB Pro Desk 832 in our control room. Both are considered live boards, but do really well in a hybrid situation.

Yes... IIRC the lads designed some nice rack mount mixers for Crest before leaving to form APB.

The Crest stuff if you can find it will probably be cheaper than APB, but more expensive than Mackie.

JR

Thanks for all tips!

No doubts about quality of APB devices,
but they are too large for what required,
and no inline with Flip option so only 16 indipendent inputs of the 32 needed
(16 stereo/mono on input A + 16 mono on input B, better more if stereo/mono also on B),

Eq is with 7 single pots taking up double space of the 3 dual pots semiparametric,
saving 50-60mm,
same for aux sends that are 6 single pots, more routings flexible but more bulky
than 2 double pots for 1-2 & 3-4+switch for 3-4 to 5-6,
saving 40-50mm more,
100mm long fader better then small 60mm but 60mm enough for what required,
saving additional 40mm,

so at least if not more than130-150 mm space (and metal chassis) can be saved between sections,
becoming more compact and positionable in tight home-project and live setups,

and as a last but not least essential the APB price
that even used remains too much expensive than a new VLZ, ... unfortunately,

 

[SIXTYNINER]

.......
and as a last but not least essential the APB price
that even used remains too much expensive than a new VLZ, ... unfortunately,

And price of the old very similar model Crest too,

other very incomprehensibly incoherent current prices are for 30-35 years old
mixers like Amek-Tac BC series, Soundcraft 400, 600, Tascam, & similar others,
which given their age require the replacement of half of the components,
and the repair/restore of various others too,

and despite that, sellers ask up to few thousand of bucks for them,

but are they aware of the fact that at lower prices there are available
much newer mixers in excellent condition without the need of repairs
like Midas Venice F series and similar others ?

 

[JohnRoberts]

I got to know the A, P, and B after Peavey bought Crest. I knew the P (JP John Petrocelli, RIP) before he worked at Crest he bought one or more kits from my kit company (Phoenix Systems). The B (Taz Bhogal), is still a forum member here. The A (Chuck Augustowski) is still doing marketing for APB.

The APB target market was not studio/recording, more like high end fixed install. That said the audio path sound quality was always well regarded. They successfully mined a market niche of analog only, but lost market share to modern digital's price performance.

JR

 

[SIXTYNINER]

........The APB target market was not studio/recording, more like high end fixed install. That said the audio path sound quality was always well regarded. They successfully mined a market niche of analog only, but lost market share to modern digital's price performance.

JR

APB are good quality products of course,
designed at Crest at a time when digital was still expensive for a certain target,
which needed a bit more hi quality than the normal,
like little mobile radio/tv broadcast units, churches, conference rooms, etc..,
and why not some not large live music setup who wanted something more,
that as soon as digital prices dropped, have switched to it,

also from that time various other mixers arrived on the market,
with same or more features, and at competitive prices,
today available used in very good condition at a fraction of the price from new,

that compared to the APB
with the not parametric eq, and same type of many others,
same for aux sends, groups, routings, etc..., and no inline,
what the APB would do better than a less expensive with same features ?
Sound ?
How much better it sounds than that less expensive one ?
Really so much to justify a cost 3/4 times X ?
More quality and durability of parts like pots & switches?
Else ?

The ramp up of digital mixers for live (and other) ,
today at a very affordable price,
ate the biggest slice of that market,
with all pro & cons,
mainly for the handy fast recall features,
and the onboard enhanced fxs,
lately also with built-in multi track recording functions,
allowing also users to not buy additional outboard,
cables to connect and disconnect,
and flight cases to carry,

forcing the manufacturers to give them priority over the analog ones,

but fortunately the fans of the analog still resist,
deserving of rightful attention,
and products with more enhanced features,
that competes with digital ones offering mainly better sound.