Recording Accessoiries

[Emmathom]

Hi @k brown this solution is really interesting and can actually be built with a pair of omnidirectional lavaliers (when you can't spend 2800€ for Earthworks).

Let It Bleed. A greater amount of omni bleed usually sounds better than a lesser amount of cardioid bleed (a major exception to this is the insanely flat off-axis response of the EV RE15). With small omnis inside the piano, positioned as shown in the PM40 lit, the piano lid can be in pretty much any position with very good results.

I think we need to separate the issues. When you record a band with electric instruments (synthesizer, electric guitar, electric bass, etc.) you have no choice but to install as many microphones as necessary, but that's another subject.

For 100% acoustic orchestra and as @Barry Hufker said, I would rather go with an omni ambiance couple, well placed and possibly reinforced by 1 or 2 mics (max) on low level instruments or to accentuate their definition. This gives a faithful stereo image of the orchestra, both in terms of placement and levels. Now, how to proceed with my setup?

I don't intend to spend money now and I lack of omni's. The only ones I've got are t.bone SC1100 modified circuit + Ari K47flat so LDC. The rest of my gear is composed by a Superlux S502 SDC ORTF, a 6AK5 cardio LDC pair and a WA84 SDC cardio pair and a SM81 SDC cardio... and no budget for a DPA (for ex.) omni pair at this time... I could maybe get a Line Audio omni pair which is affordable and very appreciated. Or a "good" lavallier omni pair...

About the gobo, I think everybody's comments here are relevant : this is not a good idea and it will not produce what I was hoping for... not efficient enough to avoid leaking from other sources / risks of direct sound disturbance

 

[k brown]

Listening again to the group recording in the original poat, what did you not like about the balance?

It does seem like a group that be recorded perfectly well with a simple omni stereo pair.

A pair of Line Audio Omni1s is an investment you will never regret.

 

[Emmathom]

Listening again to the group recording in the original poat, what did you not like about the balance?

It does seem like a group that be recorded perfectly well with a simple omni stereo pair.

A pair of Line Audio Omni1s is an investment you will never regret.

You're right : the mixed sound (not yet really "mixed") is quit satisfying. I added a little touch of reverb on the whole mix to recreate the original acoustic and to "glue" a bit these cardio's. The phase is respected between all mics (moves a little toward "acceptable" on certain parts but never in the out-of-phase range).

Yes the Line Audio omni are winking at me for a while...

 

[Emmathom]

Hi @Barry Hufker may I ask you how you set your omni couple as a "rule to begin with and before adjustments" ?

Distance between mics and between mics and front scene ? Is there a calculation depending of the width of the orchestra ? of the volume of the room ? Some say to not space too much the mics and stay as our ears distance (so ~17cm) and not too far form the musicians (1m-2m) to avoid catching too much room. I knwo this has to be adjust on a case-by-case basis, but maybe there are things to really avoid...

Thank you

 

[zamproject]

Stereo pair are well studied and documented since decades

17 cm usually refer to ORTF setup, with two cardo @ 110°
for omni we call this AB, distance may vary...
XY is coincident cardio @90°
Blumlein is coincident fig8 @90°
MS is concident Omni+8 @90° (which request matrixing)

 

[Emmathom]

Stereo pair are well studied and documented since decades

17 cm usually refer to ORTF setup, with two cardo @ 110°
for omni we call this AB, distance may vary...
XY is coincident cardio @90°
Blumlein is coincident fig8 @90°
MS is concident Omni+8 @90° (which request matrixing)

Yes I know thank you. I was asking for omni pair where there is no real fixed configuration as for ORTF, XY, M/S etc...

More a "not-to-do list" for AB omni (you can also do AB with cardio's) than a magic solution (which does not exist).

I've read that the mics must be spaced one in the middle of the half left scene and one in the middle of the half right scene (hope it's clear). So if the orchectra occupies a total width of 6m (for example) the left mic is at 1,5m from center and the right mic at 1,5m from center. Now how far from the musicians ? Is there some calculation based on the width occupied by the band ? A kind of rule considering phase issue...

This to have a "base" to begin with and adjust on a case-by-case basis.

I must point out that the majority of my classical music recordings are done "live" mostly in churches or theaters and that I only have rehearsals (for 1 hour or so / 2-3 hours before the concert) to set everything up (choice and positions of microphones, levels, recording and listening during the short breaks to evaluate my choices). So I don't have much time to do some tests and must be (more than) efficient.

 

[Barry Hufker]

@Emmathom,
Regarding Spaced Omnis: OK this is all going to sound lame, but "it depends." Sometimes my spaced omnis are about 12" (.3m) apart and other times they are a couple of feet. It all depends upon how it sounds. I do visualize the group and then mentally divide them into half or thirds, trying to place the mics so that each "section" of that imaginary division is covered. When using spaced omnis, mono compatibility suffers (how good the recording is in mono) but I don't mind that for the most part as long as the stereo is largely in phase and not "random phase" (on an oscilloscope).

My mic. placement mostly comes from studying microphone technique (books, conversation with other engineers, videos), a lot of listening and years of experience. If the omnis will be too widely separated, then it is time for a third mic to "nail down" the center of the image so the sonic image doesn't "ping pong" between left and right channels. I'm always looking (and listening) for an even spread across the stereo image. Other times, there is a co-incident pair of mics in the center with omni "wings" on either side of it.

Forgive me for this statement as it sounds critical and it's not: Please be careful how you use the term "orchestra." It has a specific meaning and does not pertain to any other kind of ensemble. So a quintet is not an orchestra. It is a "quintet", "group" or "ensemble."

I too do live concert recording (mainly) and have done for the better part of my 53 years recording classical, jazz and folk music. I enjoy this kind of recording the most!

If you haven't seen this, it is great fun to explore and a wonderful tool for understanding how microphone techniques affect the stereo image.
https://sengpielaudio.com/Visualization-Faulkner-E.htm

The page hasn't aged well as browsers have matured. By that I mean on my computer, the image is a bit disproportionate, but it still is a great help. Oddly, the page looks correct on my iPad.

I hope any of this information is helpful.