team politics talking points.

[AnalogPackrat]

These? That stuff goes back over a century. From the Tulsa massacre on. there's probably earlier ones, but that's the oldest one I remember. In case you've missed that one:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_massacre

Humans murdering other humans goes back a bit further than 100 years. Government murdering its citizens is also something that goes all the way back.

So, the answer is even more guns.

It isn't "only the government can have guns." I'd rather have more decent normal citizens have guns.

While that's true, it's not gonna solve the problem. Only a fraction of the shooters were known before and since there's no universal healthcare in the US it's not going to work.

Nothing is going to completely solve the problem. Believing that way will only lead to more and bigger problems.

Hec, we have universal healthcare and some people with mental problems still fall through the cracks, for the simple reason they don't go to see the MD.

Surprise! There's no 100% solution for that either!

Have you ever seen the numbers for the UK?

Yes. But most of us do not want to be like the UK. The UK has its own problems, and if people prefer what they have, they can go there. The US is the only alternative for those of us who see things differently. Why do you care since you are safe in Europe?

Since the abolishment of gun ownership, deaths by firearms have dropped tremendously. Up to the point that UK police don't even carry guns. Sure, there are armed police units, but that doesn't apply to the average policeman in the street.

Crime and murder are still a problem. Now they're going after pointy knives. No one needs a pointed butcher's knife or a paring knife in their home! "Save a life, bin that knife!" Right?

There rally is no reason to stick to 200 year old mantra. Even if it is in the constitution.

The Second Amendment (and most of the US Constitution) was designed to try to avoid common failings of human governments of the past. Many (most) of these failings are due to not taking into account human nature and human shortcomings. The purpose of the second amendment has not changed because human nature has not changed in 200 years (or 2000 years). Power corrupts. There will always be humans who seek power. Too much power concentrated in the hands of too few people leads to very bad things. How many were killed by their own governments in the 20th century alone?

And, yeah, I know, it won't solve the problem in a short term. That's the hard part.

Magic thinking won't solve any problem. Some problems will exist as long as humans exist and trade-offs must be made that do not err toward even worse outcomes in the mid to long term. The US has chosen a unique approach and, despite some of its negative features it works well for most people. Some recent trends that fail to disperse power are the biggest problems we face (monopolies, undue corporate influence on government, undue foreign influence on our government, and the resulting corruption of our representatives and public servants).

In the same context, US police have been getting some training to shoot not to kill. From Israeli police. In one county in Georgia...

That's fine if it can be made to work without increasing other risks. Do you have a link to this approach?

Have you ever handled or fired a gun? It isn't like Hollywood. Add some adrenaline and life or death stress and it gets even harder.

 

[cyrano]

Humans murdering other humans goes back a bit further than 100 years. Government murdering its citizens is also something that goes all the way back.

This example is about organised mass murder. Nothing to do with the govt. Just citizens among themselves. Whites shooting blacks.

It isn't "only the government can have guns." I'd rather have more decent normal citizens have guns.

You'd have to start with having more normal citizens, no?

Nothing is going to completely solve the problem. Believing that way will only lead to more and bigger problems.

Phew... I'd get outta there, if I were you.

Whatever problem in society, there's hardly ever a 100% solution. And if I understand your argument correctly, you propose doing nothing because there isn't a 100% solution?

Surprise! There's no 100% solution for that either!

99% would do fine. But as long as >50% believe what you preach, there is no solution. You'll be ruled by big corporations and the NRA, until most of you are dead. That's what some people see in Nostradamus' verses.

Having decent healthcare would at least be a 90% solution.

Yes. But most of us do not want to be like the UK. The UK has its own problems, and if people prefer what they have, they can go there. The US is the only alternative for those of us who see things differently. Why do you care since you are safe in Europe?

I'm sorry. Apple used to own "think different". They no longer own the phrase in the EU.

Besides, how do you know what most Americans want? That's a phrase I keep hearing over and over again, without any proof or even any proposal how to get there. If I remember correctly, even the previous president didn't find America a great country, since he wanted to MAGA!

Crime and murder are still a problem. Now they're going after pointy knives. No one needs a pointed butcher's knife or a paring knife in their home! "Save a life, bin that knife!" Right?

The recent killing of 1 person and hurting a few dozen others by a person with mental health problems in Germany used a car as a weapon. Nobody's proposing to take away all cars or pointy knives, but over here, you can't carry a knife that locks in your pocket. Of course you can still carry a pocket knife. It just a wee bit harder to kill a person with what we call a pocket knife.

It's common sense. Your arguments are insane.

The Second Amendment (and most of the US Constitution) was designed to try to avoid common failings of human governments of the past. Many (most) of these failings are due to not taking into account human nature and human shortcomings. The purpose of the second amendment has not changed because human nature has not changed in 200 years (or 2000 years). Power corrupts. There will always be humans who seek power. Too much power concentrated in the hands of too few people leads to very bad things. How many were killed by their own governments in the 20th century alone?

I'd like to think Homo sapiens has evolved a bit in 200 years. Maybe not. In any case, society has evolved, even if only the number of people has increased a lot. And certainly, gun technology has evolved.

Why stand by logic from 200 years ago? That looks like religion to me. Not common sense.

Magic thinking won't solve any problem. Some problems will exist as long as humans exist and trade-offs must be made that do not err toward even worse outcomes in the mid to long term.

Worse? You think a colt 45 will stop an army tank? Or a drone?

The US has chosen a unique approach and, despite some of its negative features it works well for most people. Some recent trends that fail to disperse power are the biggest problems we face (monopolies, undue corporate influence on government, undue foreign influence on our government, and the resulting corruption of our representatives and public servants).

It works well, eh? Who keeps repeating that sh*t? You really believe it's goin' well?

The US is currently the only country in the entire world where the number of women dying while giving birth is going up. To name just one thing. Want me to continue?

That's fine if it can be made to work without increasing other risks. Do you have a link to this approach?

Obviously not from a US paper. It was Haaretz, I believe.

https://www.haaretz.com/2002-05-29/...training/0000017f-dc5d-df62-a9ff-dcdf778b0000
It's a bit scary that they need to learn from Israeli police, of course.

Have you ever handled or fired a gun? It isn't like Hollywood. Add some adrenaline and life or death stress and it gets even harder.

Yes, I've handled guns. I was in the army. While I was in the army, some criminals had figured out the army's weapons weren't too well guarded, so they raided one of these and got away with several dozen FAL rifles and some other stuff, including ammo.

When that happened, the soldiers guarding that stuff were given real ammo. I witnessed several people getting killed. By accident. Out of sheer stupidity.

Obviously, the criminals were the smart ones, as they didn't come back.

The only one I deemed capable of handling guns, was our Master of arms. All the rest was far to idiotic, or careless. Guns seem to attract idiots.

So you think having more arms will alleviate it being hard?

 

[AnalogPackrat]

This example is about organised mass murder. Nothing to do with the govt. Just citizens among themselves. Whites shooting blacks.

I didn't say it had anything to do with government in that case, did I? I said humans murdering humans goes back a lot further than 100 years and that includes mass murder. If you have an oppressed segment of the population that is also defenseless do you think that improves their odds of survival?

You'd have to start with having more normal citizens, no?

We have plenty. I'd argue the abnormal ones are the ones who employ magical thinking and believe in some utopian ideal that is simply not possible. I am a hard pragmatist.

Phew... I'd get outta there, if I were you.

Why? Are you projecting?

Whatever problem in society, there's hardly ever a 100% solution. And if I understand your argument correctly, you propose doing nothing because there isn't a 100% solution?

No, I propose NOT doing stupid things just to "do something," especially when those stupid things punish people who have done nothing wrong.

99% would do fine. But as long as >50% believe what you preach, there is no solution. You'll be ruled by big corporations and the NRA, until most of you are dead. That's what some people see in Nostradamus' verses.

99% is a pipe dream for most real problems of any complexity. What makes you think the NRA rules anything? Like many, you have no idea what the organization is or does. Big corporations and the Citizens United case are a major problem. I don't plan on being killed by my government. I also don't follow fantasy predictions.

Having decent healthcare would at least be a 90% solution.

We could have that with less big pharma influence in government. Healthcare here was actually quite good when I was a kid.

Besides, how do you know what most Americans want? That's a phrase I keep hearing over and over again, without any proof or even any proposal how to get there. If I remember correctly, even the previous president didn't find America a great country, since he wanted to MAGA!

I have lived here my entire life. I started out in a small southern state, moved to CA for 29+ years, and am now back. I have traveled widely in this country including 6 cross-continent trips. I enjoy taking back roads and talking to regular people from small towns. I've worked with people from all over the world during my high tech career. I've been to Europe, Israel, South Korea, and the Philippines.

My ancestors on my mother's side immigrated here from Germany in 1752 to escape religious persecution (they were and are Lutherans). They arrived and applied for land grants (25 acres per family member) and then struck out to settle what was then the completely undeveloped area where they farmed and built a community. They were not wealthy. They were persistent, hard-working, self-sufficient types who helped each other in hard times.

My father's family left Ireland around the same time and for similar reasons. They started out in Virginia, but part of the family migrated south over a generation or two and settled in the coastal plain to farm. They were also not wealthy and scratched out their existence from the raw earth.

There is no doubt that my country is not what it was even 40 years ago. We are on the wrong path and those of us who recognize that are fighting to stop the slide and recover the lost ground. You can try to poke fun all you want, but it will not deter those of us who care.

The recent killing of 1 person and hurting a few dozen others by a person with mental health problems in Germany used a car as a weapon. Nobody's proposing to take away all cars or pointy knives, but over here, you can't carry a knife that locks in your pocket. Of course you can still carry a pocket knife. It just a wee bit harder to kill a person with what we call a pocket knife.

I've carried a pocket knife since my father gave me my first one when I was about 10. Yes, I carried it to school just like many other boys of that era. No one got stabbed. I still have it and carry it frequently. It has three blades, the longest about 3". It isn't a locking type. Some of the kids who's family were hunters had lock-back types (the Buck 110 being very popular). Why is it necessary to regulate pocket knives? What has changed in the 46 years since I was a fourth grader with a knife in his pocket every day at school?

It's common sense. Your arguments are insane.

Prove it. Until the last 30-35 years in this country these problems did not exist like they do now. But knives were more common and guns were more accessible (especially prior to the 1968 gun control act).

I'd like to think Homo sapiens has evolved a bit in 200 years. Maybe not. In any case, society has evolved, even if only the number of people has increased a lot. And certainly, gun technology has evolved.

You can pretend all you like, but evil people and insane people will always be out there. There's no way to stop them all or detect them without causing collateral damage with false positives. Society may have evolved (and also devolved), but human nature has not.

As to gun technology, the first reliable semi-automatic rifles were manufactured over 110 years ago. The Winchester 1907 was a semi-automatic rifle chambered in .351SL (a much more powerful round than the .556 NATO) fed from a removable box magazine (5, 10, and 15 round magazines were available). It was made for 50 years. Anyone could order one by mail through the Sears catalog. Some 400,000 semi-automatic rifles were sold to the public in the 34 years prior to Pearl Harbor.

As for pistols, John Moses Browning, a prolific designer, developed several semi-automatic types from 1896 until his death in 1926. Several models are still in production to this day, the M1911 in .45ACP arguably being the most successful and popular. Millions of these and similar guns have been in civilian hands for over 100 years.

Why stand by logic from 200 years ago? That looks like religion to me. Not common sense.

Why throw away good ideas just because they are old? Should we discard geometry, algebra, calculus, the scientific method? You are free to disagree, but your points are not proven by any stretch.

Worse? You think a colt 45 will stop an army tank? Or a drone?

Typical limited thinking. I won't bother to enlighten you if you are that ignorant.

It works well, eh? Who keeps repeating that sh*t? You really believe it's goin' well?

Yes, for the most part it does. Is Germany's energy policy going well? Is Sweden's immigration policy going well? All countries have challenged to overcome and mistakes to reverse. Maybe you can worry about yours.

The US is currently the only country in the entire world where the number of women dying while giving birth is going up. To name just one thing. Want me to continue?

What do you suppose the root causes of that are? No, I don't want to hear your nitpicks. It really is none of your concern. Stay in "safe" Europe.

Obviously not from a US paper. It was Haaretz, I believe.

https://www.haaretz.com/2002-05-29/...training/0000017f-dc5d-df62-a9ff-dcdf778b0000
It's a bit scary that they need to learn from Israeli police, of course.

Thanks. I'll check it out.

Yes, I've handled guns. I was in the army. While I was in the army, some criminals had figured out the army's weapons weren't too well guarded, so they raided one of these and got away with several dozen FAL rifles and some other stuff, including ammo.

Sounds like your armed forces have problems.

When that happened, the soldiers guarding that stuff were given real ammo. I witnessed several people getting killed. By accident. Out of sheer stupidity.

Poor training and not being exposed to evil "gun culture" contributed, no doubt. I was taught from a young age to respect firearms and how to handle them safely. So were millions of kids like me. And do you know what organization here provides training to the most people (including law enforcement officers among others)? Is it the Brady gun control group? Nope. Maybe the Giffords gun safety group? Nope. Oh, right, it must be one of the Bloomberg gun safety groups! Nope. It's the NRA. It isn't hard to learn "the four rules" and follow them. Millions do every day at thousands of gun ranges and on private and public land all over the USA.

Obviously, the criminals were the smart ones, as they didn't come back.

So the army, a part of the government which is supposed to protect the citizenry, instead failed so badly that they armed some criminals and killed several of their own out of negligence. This is why we don't want the government to "protect" us. BTW, I assume you know that SCOTUS has ruled that law enforcement has no duty to protect any citizen, right? So you can call 911, wait minutes (or 45 minutes at my old place in California) and then hope they officers who arrive might protect you from the bad guy(s).

The only one I deemed capable of handling guns, was our Master of arms. All the rest was far to idiotic, or careless. Guns seem to attract idiots.

How do you have an effective armed force if only the MoA can handle the weaponry. I'm not impressed.

So you think having more arms will alleviate it being hard?

No, I think having a weapon and regularly training with it will make it possible for me to prevail should the need arise. I certainly hope it will not, but I will not outsource protection of myself and my family.

 

[scott2000]

So you can call 911, wait minutes (or 45 minutes at my old place in California) and then hope they officers who arrive might protect you from the bad guy(s).

Reminds me of one time I was out to dinner with my wife and we left our phones in the car. Turns out our alarm at home went off and the alarm company called us to check to see if it was a false alarm. We never knew until we got home . Almost 3 hours from the alarm company call, we get a knock on the door from a sheriff following up on an alarm call...

 

[shabtek]

nra is business trade group. they are not going to advocate for things that hurt the core business even if they make sense.

hunting is not what it used to be in usa. habitat has been traded for rowcrop acres as agribusiness continues to take over and there are fewer hunting opportunities for commoners than ever.

 

[iturnknobs]

Republican echo chamber these days, huh?

Analog Packrat quite the JR "fluffer". Hang Mike Pence. Freedom. 'Murica.

Edit: I guess all the right-wingers are "pro-life" until it comes to supporting Trump supporters who support killing the VP they elected. No need for welfare or SNAP benefits in this instance.

Edit 2: will post documentation for the "fake news" proponents...not that you'll read it.

 

[iturnknobs]

Let's harden schools...because 19 armed police officers just aren't enough against ONE assault rifle. We could always go back to online learning like in the covid days...NOPE. Barbed wire and weapons are WAY better...or get rid of the only thing that separates our statistics from "their"(all other countries) statistics... GUNS.

 

[iturnknobs]

...or force women to have children YOU REFUSE TO SUPPORT...

Who do you stand with?

 

[iturnknobs]

Funniest of all, this platform is no better, if not worse that FB, flooded with loud mouthed minorities. It just leaves me flabbergasted that people designing and fixing gear for artists, primarily left-leaning as artists usually are, think this is a "way to be". Do me and the world a favor. Have the balls to speak your mind in the presence of your clients so you actually lose your gig so we can finally fix the stupidity that causes all the division within society.

 

[JohnRoberts]

somebody needs a hug....

JR

 

[crazydoc]

Wow! I can't understand why the Capitol Police didn't start shooting. They sure could have used some automatic assault weapons.

 

[boji]

Republican echo chamber these days, huh?

Telling a fellow poker player what cards you think they have is about as useful as telling them what cards you have.

 

[cyrano]

Well, at least there is a discussion now.

BTW. The link to Haaretz isn't the right one. It's about the same thing, but from two decades ago. I searched for the right one, but couldn't find it. Damn, reading on several devices isn't good if you need to find something from the browser's history. Especially if you can't remember where it exactly came from.

 

[shabtek]

somebody needs a hug....

JR

@iturnknobs:
try to embrace cognitive dissonance

 

[fallout]

@iturnknobs, take a deep breath, look within.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Wow! I can't understand why the Capitol Police didn't start shooting. They sure could have used some automatic assault weapons.

Um... unarmed 35 YO air force veteran Ashli Babbitt was shot and killed by a capitol police officer using his service pistol. No charges were filed for the shooting.

JR

 

[hodad]

Telling a fellow poker player what cards you think they have

A friend who plays poker for a living told me about a very good poker player who would do just that--and with uncanny accuracy. It seemed to work for him. To the point iturnknobs was making: it is remarkable how adding just a few more right-wingers to the conversation does such a good job of poisoning the conversation. (I have my own ideas about why this happens, but there's really no point in sharing here.) I guess on one level it's good: fewer people waste their time marshaling facts and evidence to counter people who will never be convinced they're wrong. On the other hand, all the right wing crazy really uglies up the place.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Of course both sides think they are correct, that's human nature..

Have you ever seen somebody's mind changed by calling them a right wing crazy, or left wing lunatic? No I thought not.

To repeat the poker analogy, if you don't know who the patsy is it might be you. The influencers, men and woman behind the curtain are not looking for common ground, but actively trying to keep us arguing so we don't realize how they are manipulating us.

This has turned far worse with opposition no longer being characterized as just mis-informed who might benefit from accurate knowledge. Now the opposition is characterized as incorrigible evil that must be confronted and eliminated.

The gunman who showed up outside SCOTUS justice Kavanaugh's house planned to kill him. I am not mind reading, he shared his intentions with the police.

Violent, aggressive rhetoric is harmful. Protesting outside jurist home's to influence a decision is actually illegal but the justice department has not arrested any of those law breakers, and the administration has not publicly discouraged these illegal protests. This is interesting in juxtaposition with the jan 6 hearing.

JR

 

[AnalogPackrat]

nra is business trade group. they are not going to advocate for things that hurt the core business even if they make sense.

The NRA is a marksmanship and safety training group that recently (in the past 30-40 years) expanded into advocacy for the right to keep and bear arms.

Revenues primarily come from membership dues (there are 5-6M members and dues run $15-30 depending on age, veteran status, etc.). The organization publishes several magazines which are distributed primarily to members. They contain ads which generate some revenue. The NRA sells clothing and accessories and licenses use of its logo for royalties. Individuals can donate more if they wish. There are two organizations withing the NRA for lobbying (NRA-Institute for Legal Affairs) and a PAC (NRA-Political Victory Fund) which are funded by individual contributions.

This is the most recent (backwards timeline) plot I could find. As of 2020 membership dues revenue is down from the peak, but still over 100M.

Now compare this organization (which has its flaws) to the Bloomberg groups which are almost completely funded by one person to the tune of tens of millions.

https://philanthropynewsdigest.org/news/bloomberg-to-launch-50-million-gun-control-initiativehttps://www.wideners.com/blog/bloomberg-on-gun-control/
And people are OK with this one man funded group donating huge amounts to political campaigns but hate it when an organization supported by several million average Americans at $30 each does the same. Amazing.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/06/mik...tspends-nra-helps-democrats-win-virginia.html

hunting is not what it used to be in usa. habitat has been traded for rowcrop acres as agribusiness continues to take over and there are fewer hunting opportunities for commoners than ever.

I'm sure it varies across the country, but in CA it was more suburban sprawl eating up both agricultural land and natural habitat. Here in the South most land has been farmed at some point in the past 200-350 years, so with few exceptions forested land is relatively young. What is happening here is more pine plantations for lumber and pulp plus rapid housing sprawl due to an influx of people from out of state over the past few years.

Where I grew up (and where my parents still live) is on a ~2 mile wide by ~1.5 mile long convoluted peninsula that juts out into a large manmade lake. The ~2 sq mile area (about 1400 acres) was mostly forested with a few old pastures and open farmland that dated back to before the lake was built in the late 1920s-early 1930s. There were maybe 75 houses in that area when we moved in 1972. Now there are dense subdivisions going in with 50-100 houses on four or five acres. We had 7 acres and 5 was young forest. We rarely saw deer. Now deer browse my parents' shrubbery day and night. Less natural habitat and less hunting plus a giant edible salad in every yard makes for problems.

 

[AnalogPackrat]

Republican echo chamber these days, huh?

What happened to tolerance and open discussion?

Analog Packrat quite the JR "fluffer". Hang Mike Pence. Freedom. 'Murica.

Let me share something important with you. When I joined this group in 2005 I considered myself socially liberal and fiscally conservative. I've always had a strong anti-authoritarian bent. I did not vote for the NeoConMen (and stand by that decision today). I voted for Obama with no real enthusiasm because I thought the alternatives were worse (I now regret those two votes, but still do not care for Palin or Romney).

Around the time JR showed up here I had changed jobs. He was talking about the goings on in Venezuela and, honestly, I thought he was pretty far out there. But then I met a middle-aged woman at my new job who had escaped that country with her family (and little else). Over several lunch breaks she told me of her experience growing up there and the destruction of that country by the socialist government. Of course it got much, much worse after 2006. So I re-evaluated my opinion of JR.

What happened during Obama's time was a huge disappointment. I was proud that we had elected our first minority POTUS. But then, rather than help heal the divide, he opened it back up and poured salt in the wound. I had seen huge progress in race relations during my lifetime up until that time. Much of it has been reversed, unfortunately. For these and many other reasons I feel that the Democrat party has left me. They are no longer the party of middle America, of the working class, of fairness.

I do not wish to hang Mike Pence. I wish cooler heads had prevailed in the Summer of 2020 (and the earlier riots during Obama's administration) as well as on Janurary 6, 2021.

Edit: I guess all the right-wingers are "pro-life" until it comes to supporting Trump supporters who support killing the VP they elected. No need for welfare or SNAP benefits in this instance.

Put down your broad brush of negative assumptions. This is exactly the kind of vitriolic BS that is destroying support for the Democrats.

Edit 2: will post documentation for the "fake news" proponents...not that you'll read it.

I read stuff from all sides. It is because of this that I became of aware of many myths and lies that persist and are repeated here in this forum.