team politics talking points.

[crazydoc]

Um... unarmed 35 YO air force veteran Ashli Babbitt was shot and killed by a capitol police officer using his service pistol. No charges were filed for the shooting.

JR

The horse was out of the barn by that point. They should have started when the barriers were breached - at least massive tear gas, but obviously the chain of command was, to say the least, unsupportive.

 

[hodad]

just mis-informed who might benefit from accurate knowledge

Yeah, tell me how much your needle has ever been moved by "accurate knowledge." Other than to shift points of attack (on issues like global warming) when certain of your positions become laughably untenable, have your core beliefs on such matters changed?
A certain "radioactive" member here was consistently (and often quite respectfully) informed of factual and logical errors in his arguments--did that change anything?

You're making a bold assumption that some of the folks here have any interest at all in "accurate knowledge," or that accurate knowledge would alter their beliefs in any way. There are certainly some folks here who are conservative-leaning who are absolutely open to entertaining doubt, who are willing to take in new information and update their perspectives. Those folks, however, are not the ones who make the most noise here. In fact, many of the right-wing noisemakers here have shown themselves to be far more easily swayed by baseless conspiracy theories than by "accurate knowledge." That makes having a decent discussion rather challenging.

if you don't know who the patsy is it might be you.

I've used this line on you once or twice as well. When one of the founts of your anti-global warming propaganda (Exxon) is saying the exact opposite in its private, in-house discussions, maybe you should think twice about buying into their public pronouncements.


There are many issues that I think would benefit pretty much everyone here to take a closer look at. However, utter intransigence on certain issues makes finding common ground rather difficult. I've made overtures toward finding common ground a couple of times here, just to get immediately shot down (by you, John.) You talk a good game sometimes, but your actions betray those conciliatory sentiments.

 

[AnalogPackrat]

A friend who plays poker for a living told me about a very good poker player who would do just that--and with uncanny accuracy. It seemed to work for him. To the point iturnknobs was making: it is remarkable how adding just a few more right-wingers to the conversation does such a good job of poisoning the conversation. (I have my own ideas about why this happens, but there's really no point in sharing here.) I guess on one level it's good: fewer people waste their time marshaling facts and evidence to counter people who will never be convinced they're wrong. On the other hand, all the right wing crazy really uglies up the place.

I'm not seeing you respond to any of the facts I've posted here. I'm not a "right-winger." I'm a guy in the middle with anti-authoritarian beliefs who was abandoned by the Democrats as they slewed hard left. Why is it a problem to have minority voices here in the Brewery? I don't bring politics into the tech discussions. Neither do the other guys you seem to really hate.

iturnknobs:

Funniest of all, this platform is no better, if not worse that FB, flooded with loud mouthed minorities. It just leaves me flabbergasted that people designing and fixing gear for artists, primarily left-leaning as artists usually are, think this is a "way to be". Do me and the world a favor. Have the balls to speak your mind in the presence of your clients so you actually lose your gig so we can finally fix the stupidity that causes all the division within society.

Assumption. I'm a hobbyist. I do this stuff for myself and a few friends. I can enjoy this despite the fact that I disagree politically with some of the artists who make music. It isn't that hard. I speak my mind regularly with people who may not agree. A free society is built on the ability of people to share their thoughts, is it not? Do you refuse to work with people that don't think like you? Would you decline business from someone who didn't vote the way you did? You might ask yourself if that is really a way to make the world a better place. "Loud mouthed minorities" is really indicative of some anger.

 

[fallout]

A certain "radioactive" member here was consistently (and often quite respectfully) informed of factual and logical errors in his arguments--did that change anything?

Cute.. but you're right, I still believe vaccine mandates and government overreach on the subject are bullshit. Actual facts on the topic are slim, so there's that. I'll make my own health decisions, thanks though.

 

[shabtek]

Less hunting and more gun manufacturing and sales over time.
That graph smells funny— it is clearly trying to make your point by the way it is laid out. What is the primary economic interest tied to the group?
Sales sporting goods and consolidating a voting bloc. advocating for safety does not exclude sales of weapons and ammo at whatever volume the market will bear.

Its a tool (like the church) used by those behind the curtain.


The influencers, men and woman behind the curtain are not looking for common ground, but actively trying to keep us arguing so we don't realize how they are manipulating us.

 

[fallout]

The influencers, men and woman behind the curtain are not looking for common ground, but actively trying to keep us arguing so we don't realize how they are manipulating us.

100000%

 

[JohnRoberts]

Yeah, tell me how much your needle has ever been moved by "accurate knowledge." Other than to shift points of attack (on issues like global warming) when certain of your positions become laughably untenable, have your core beliefs on such matters changed?

I decline to argue with other people about me

A certain "radioactive" member here was consistently (and often quite respectfully) informed of factual and logical errors in his arguments--did that change anything?

apparently not

You're making a bold assumption that some of the folks here have any interest at all in "accurate knowledge," or that accurate knowledge would alter their beliefs in any way.

No I made the opposite point. You are mind reading again.

There are certainly some folks here who are conservative-leaning who are absolutely open to entertaining doubt, who are willing to take in new information and update their perspectives. Those folks, however, are not the ones who make the most noise here. In fact, many of the right-wing noisemakers here have shown themselves to be far more easily swayed by baseless conspiracy theories than by "accurate knowledge." That makes having a decent discussion rather challenging.

more unfounded criticism based on what you think other people think?

I've used this line on you once or twice as well.

because it has merit

When one of the founts of your anti-global warming propaganda (Exxon) is saying the exact opposite in its private, in-house discussions, maybe you should think twice about buying into their public pronouncements.

Your argument sounds like woke cancel culture memes ("did you hear what they say in private?"). I don't care what they say in private, while I have recently considered buying some XOM stock since oil seems like it going to $150 or higher before $50, and they pay a dividend.

I have read multiple excellent fact filled books about climate change. Koonin routinely uses UN and government data to disprove their over reaching conclusions. I have offered to share these books but so far no takers.

There is a new book Fossil Future by Alex Epstein defending the utility of fossil fuel for mankind. I haven't bought this book because I feel adequately informed. I did see him debate a climate change advocate on cspan and they were not all that civil.

==

I have read multiple books about persuasion and the climate crisis proponents are using a classic fast thinking/slow thinking switcheroo. The lead fact that earth is warming satisfies the fast thinking brain, and suspends the slow thinking critical inspection of the "therefore we must" do this. Apparently rising gas prices is another acceptable strategy to save the planet.

Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

Charles Mackay, Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds, Preface (1852).

There are many issues that I think would benefit pretty much everyone here to take a closer look at. However, utter intransigence on certain issues makes finding common ground rather difficult. I've made overtures toward finding common ground a couple of times here, just to get immediately shot down (by you, John.) You talk a good game sometimes, but your actions betray those conciliatory sentiments.

Seriously? You routinely come close to breaking rule #4 with your targeted personal attacks. I routinely give you and my several friendly opposition forum members here a little extra leeway to keep it interesting. I am a big boy and can survive a little name calling. You should hear what people call me on social media elsewhere. One puke recently called me a "muffin" whatever that means.

We are clearly viewing two different movies here based on our own very different personal filters.

JR

 

[boji]

A friend who plays poker for a living told me about a very good poker player who would do just that--and with uncanny accuracy. It seemed to work for him.

Point taken, but notice how if all people played as your friend did, the game would become insufferable. An ideal playing style would get a player invited back and introduced to all the bigger games.

The larger context was that we should be beyond using any language that treats a game and a player as the same thing, because that type of thinking is historically a pretext to all of our worst inclinations.

 

[fallout]

In fact, many of the right-wing noisemakers here have shown themselves to be far more easily swayed by baseless conspiracy theories than by "accurate knowledge."

You mean like this conspiracy theory?

https://nypost.com/2022/03/30/washington-post-admits-hunter-biden-laptop-is-real/
Or this one?

https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/18/politics/steele-dossier-reckoning/index.html
Who is swayed again?

 

[fallout]

The horse was out of the barn by that point.

If a suspect is physically resisting arrest, is the horse out of the barn? Split second decisions are tough.

 

[hodad]

Your argument sounds like woke cancel culture memes ("did you hear what they say in private?").

"Woke cancel culture"--way to keep it classy. Years ago I linked here to a story that detailed Exxon's in-house corporate memos & planning in re climate change vs. their public pronouncements as well as the propaganda spewed by the "think tanks" they bankrolled. You could have followed that link way back then, John, & you might understand what I'm referring to. You were on the board and very much involved in that conversation.

more unfounded criticism based on what you think other people think?

What people say. There are people here of a conservative-ish bent who will on many occasions respond in a positive or thoughtful manner to facts presented by people of differing views. And there are people who are dismissive or worse of inconvenient facts, and yet repeatedly espouse baseless conspiracy theories that mesh with the beliefs or positions they already hold. I'm sure you read the same stuff I read on this board--I'm not sure how this has escaped your attention.

*JR sez:
The lead fact that earth is warming satisfies the fast thinking brain, and suspends the slow thinking critical inspection of the "therefore we must" do this.*

This sounds like a rather contrived excuse for doing nothing. Pretty weak stuff.

 

[JohnRoberts]

"Woke cancel culture"--way to keep it classy.

if the shoe fits

Years ago I linked here to a story that detailed Exxon's in-house corporate memos & planning in re climate change vs. their public pronouncements as well as the propaganda spewed by the "think tanks" they bankrolled. You could have followed that link way back then, John, & you might understand what I'm referring to. You were on the board and very much involved in that conversation.

old F'n news.

These days I am concerned about big oil bending over backwards (bending over forwards?) to satisfy the ESG harpies. Institutional investors are swayed by ESG demands. I am still considering buying some XOM stock, 3+% dividend, decent PEG, but I got distracting today working on more important stuff.

Speaking of kowtowing to the ESG crowd, DOW has figured out how to make recyclable plastic from oil with full carbon capture. Their first production plant is being built in Canada because they have even more liberal tax credits for carbon capture, but DOW expects similar credits to be available in the US when they get around to building a US plant. DOW is also on my short list of stocks because I worry about ESG distorting marker valuations.

What people say. There are people here of a conservative-ish bent who will on many occasions respond in a positive or thoughtful manner to facts presented by people of differing views. And there are people who are dismissive or worse of inconvenient facts, and yet repeatedly espouse baseless conspiracy theories that mesh with the beliefs or positions they already hold. I'm sure you read the same stuff I read on this board--I'm not sure how this has escaped your attention.

not sure what you just said, a little confusing.

*JR sez:
The lead fact that earth is warming satisfies the fast thinking brain, and suspends the slow thinking critical inspection of the "therefore we must" do this.*

This sounds like a rather contrived excuse for doing nothing. Pretty weak stuff.

Bzzzt wrongo.... nobody is saying to do "nothing". The correct response is to A) continue to learn more about the climate (scientists don't know as much as they claim. How many have predicted that we would be underwater by now? B) Pursue zero carbon nuclear power generation. New nuclear generation cycles are cleaner, and safer, and if done properly cheaper. We have been making compact nuclear generation for use in submarines and warships. These could be adapted for modular nuclear generating plants to service multiple smaller modest distribution systems with no concern about sun shining or wind blowing.. We still have to overcome the irrational NIMBY fear of nuclear. This is not real but another unfortunate byproduct "of the sky is falling" media.

Smarter people that I have mapped out cost/benefit to the world population of doing A) nothing, B) reducing carbon emissions to zero, and C) a more sensible modest response while developing clean technology. Over reacting to this will harm the poorest among us, who need cheap energy to prosper. So far I am not hearing anybody in our government with half a clue.... Instead they are happily fiddling while energy prices climb to sky, thinking that they are somehow helping the planet.

It is ironic that you are claiming that I am mindlessly brainwashed to follow some wrongheaded corporate direction. I have been following this science for decades and have read multiple well respected scientific books (while Lomborg is more of a social scientist, Koonin is the climate scientist/nuclear engineer).

I am losing enthusiasm to continue yet another wresting in the mud session... continue to believe what you will, the truth is out there.

JR

 

[hodad]

not sure what you just said, a little confusing.

You accused me of "mindreading," and I was letting you know that my statements were based on the words of various forum members here. That's all.

Speaking of kowtowing to the ESG crowd

This is the only ESG crowd I kowtow to:

 

[scott2000]

KC & The Sunshine Band packed the house when I was working at a club in the 90's...lol

 

[AnalogPackrat]

Less hunting and more gun manufacturing and sales over time.

More sprawl, fewer rural residents.

That graph smells funny— it is clearly trying to make your point by the way it is laid out. What is the primary economic interest tied to the group?
Sales sporting goods and consolidating a voting bloc. advocating for safety does not exclude sales of weapons and ammo at whatever volume the market will bear.

You are simply misinformed. The primary interest of the group is marksmanship, gun safety training, and preserving the right to keep and bear arms. It really is that simple. Like any large organization, they have problems. But the purpose is clear. They don't sell sporting goods. Sellers of such items do buy advertising in the NRA publications, but as you can see that is a small part of the income. This is all publicly reported to the IRS and you can find plenty of sources that show the very same thing I linked.

Its a tool (like the church) used by those behind the curtain.

It is attacked using falsehoods by those in power on the left. The organization itself must publish its balance sheet and it does. You're welcome to search for NRA firearms training classes in your area of the US. You will likely find plenty.

The influencers, men and woman behind the curtain are not looking for common ground, but actively trying to keep us arguing so we don't realize how they are manipulating us.

This is true.

 

[hodad]

Homicide Rates by state, per the CDC. Just a small indication that John would do well to quit sweating what's happening in NYC & worry more about what's going on closer to home.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Homicide Rates by state, per the CDC. Just a small indication that John would do well to quit sweating what's happening in NYC & worry more about what's going on closer to home.

I don't know why you have to keep trolling me personally, please find another target for your attention.
===
A police officer was just shot and killed in Meridian, MS, about 20 miles away from my house. He was shot and killed while responding to a domestic violence case. Thursday night I was getting warnings on my not so smart phone to lock and load (not literally), but warnings that an armed and dangerous suspect was heading toward my home county. The shooter has since been captured. I somehow doubt he will be one of those criminals who don't get prosecuted.

I heard one talking head on TV characterize the progressive catch and release trend as the exact opposite of the old "broken windows" policing policy. Ignoring low level crimes, just emboldens criminals to break even more laws.
======

I worry about the entire country that seems to be falling apart. I feel a personal connection to NYC because I was born and grew up near there. NYC also get disproportionate news coverage because some major news organizations are based there, but NYC is far from the worst. There seems to be a competition for the worst region and the Northwest is definitely in the running, experiencing some remarkable disfunction. Defunding police, and electing DA/prosecutors that don't enforce laws give criminal license to run amok.

The only green shoot I have seen recently is the progressive SF DA who was just recalled. One of the 75+ supported by Soros funded groups.

JR

 

[fallout]

This paints a better picture of what's going on in NYC. Crime is up by almost every measure since 2021.

https://compstat.nypdonline.org/2e5c3f4b-85c1-4635-83c6-22b27fe7c75c/view/89

 

[hodad]

It's interesting listening to the hearings this morning. I've theorized before that Trump convinces himself that what he wants to be true is indeed true--nothing I've heard today would challenge that theory. Someone from Trump's team said Trump seemed singularly uninterested in facts surrounding accusations of election fraud. Barr noted that it could be difficult to reason with Trump prior to the election, but it became nigh on impossible afterwards. Getting this much insight into the process is quite intriguing.

I feel a personal connection to NYC

Do you feel less of a connection to the state where you live, where homicide rates are far higher than in New York state?

 

[JohnRoberts]

Do you feel less of a connection to the state where you live, where homicide rates are far higher than in New York state?

how many times do I need to ask you to stop trolling me personally? This makes two times in last several days, (yes I am counting).

JR