The enemys of democracy

[Recording Engineer]

I can't imagine a worst possible outcome, but expect more negativity.

I won't try to tell people what to think about recent events, everybody else already is.

Good luck...

JR

Out of all this, negativity is most concerning? That’s what to speak up on? I can find parallels to Trump’s complaints on negativity concerning the pandemic. It’s not as if he radiates positivity upon us; unless one considers his endless rally mantras, positive.

 

[living sounds]

Interesting read:

https://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=70278.0

 

[iturnknobs]

This is dangerous, dangerous stuff folks!  I've been utterly frustrated for 5 years now, seeing this monstrous BS unfold.

And it could still get worse.  Let's hope it doesn't.

So, I'll say it again.  Do not relax about it.

...but let's start tapping each other on the shoulder privately before lambasting one another publicly from now on.  I've begun practicing this as some can hopefully attest to.  I've tried my best to reach some people here who I disagree with and certainly wouldn't ever support their views.  Trying to make someone admit they're wrong isn't going to work I don't think.

I appreciate your efforts and would like to live in your utopia, but.... there are people on the right in this forum pushing the ideas that led to Wednesday's events, and conspiracy theories directly thereafter, along with conspiracy theories about covid and completely disregard fact because of their pride. Period. This forum(nor any, for that matter) should not become a medium to spread fake news just because people want to avoid conflict. In fact, weeding out fake news should eventually cause the conflict to subside... or we could let it just keep happening. Maybe Capitol Hall will fall for good next Wednesday if we can just avoid some conflict here. This week's events are a direct result of people being "shushed" at the holiday dinner table for the past 4 decades with some internet-provided "fake news" mixed in. No more.

 

[groselicain]

[...]We're not going to solve much by bashing each other and holding each other accountable on an Internet forum.

I appreciate you trying. This place is a cesspool and thoughts like that seem to be too heavy to float among all the bad behavior that rises to the top.

 

[hodad]

thanks for proving my point about more negativity.

JR

There's a guy who regularly comments on an old friend's rather liberal facebook posts, and chides him for marveling at the nonsense some conservatives buy into.  At times, I feel that certain, somewhat saner and more informed folks on the right tend to coddle and make excuses for the more "credulous," shall we say, folks on their side of things. 

Now, let's suppose you're dealing with someone who believes QAnon nonsense (and it is utter nonsense), or who can't be convinced, even by hard, concrete facts--solid freaking evidence--that the attempted insurrection was an antifa plot?  You can present evidence, and well-reasoned arguments, and it does nothing.  What do you do then?  Do you pander to them while muttering under your breath what freaking idiots they are?  Do you shun them and shut them out of your life?  Are you supposed to "meet them halfway" between reality and their delusions, to pretend there's this alternate world between reality and their political fever dreams?  Or do you tell them to go sit in the freaking corner, and they'll be allowed to rejoin the conversation when they can speak and behave like rational human beings? 

I don't have an answer here.  But I don't buy into the idea of catering to someone's fantastical and easily disproven delusions about what's "real" or "fake."  I think what we've seen in Washington this week is that approach doesn't work--not with Trump, not with the crazy insurrectionists. 

So what does one do?

 

[hodad]

Walk away. 

-A

And how does this stop things like the insurrection in DC?  How does it stop gullible/delusional people from taking a crap on my country and possibly even me?  Georgia's SOS has received death threats, as has his family.  And that's because he did his job right, instead of rigging an election as Trump wanted him to. 

This goes well beyond simple internet arguments.  People are committing violent crimes because of their foolish belief in things like QAnon (or Trump's incessant lies.)  It's a real-world problem, and not just confined to facebook or twitter, or a tiny corner of the internet like this one.  This is people getting hurt or killed, and severe damage to our systems of governance. 

 

[Recording Engineer]

extreme sarcasm and jokes usually.  but o.k.

All things I highly-enjoy! But if a discussion is not in earnest at the same time and only extremism rhetoric on either side of the isle, without any sensible reason, it’s simply an unjust discussion. It is pointless. It’s not even about politics at that point and I want no part of it.

I honestly felt for you when finding out you have a studio right in the heart of all the chaos. I can easily put myself in your shoes, but can only imagine what that was like; so really I don’t know at all.

With that post, looking for genuine middle-ground, about the scum trying to block the hospital entrance, I met you in the middle instantly. I keep trying to offer the same. Here in the middle with logic I stand. Meet me here anytime.

 

[hodad]

  This is one example of how Internet conversations can turn into arguments very quickly. 
/When it gets to this point unfortunately the fight has already started and action has to be taken to resolve it./
-A

Well, I'm not mad at you if you're not mad at me.  But the problem is deeper than what you addressed--as I think you just made clear in your follow-up post.  And you may have discussed it further in a post I missed elsewhere--I admit there are times where I get caught up in a reply to one post and miss what's said in some others.

/When it gets to this point unfortunately the fight has already started and action has to be taken to resolve it./
-A

I think maybe this is more what I'm talking about.

In the right-here/right-now (meaning the country, not this forum), things are quite ugly.  We need to move forward, and I'm not sure how that'll happen when a certain subset of the population has abandoned empiricism and sound logic, and they're acting, sometimes violently, on the delusions and conspiracies they've chosen to/been conned into believing. 

As I've probably discussed elsewhere, John's "two different movies" line is just a reflection of the moral/epistemological relativism that has become a cornerstone of modern conservatism.  At its most extreme, this relativism can be used to affirm the most ludicrous delusions and negate the soundest empirical evidence.  It's also a building block of fascism.  More measured and rational approaches have often been less than successful in dealing with this sort of thing.  That's where things fall apart for me--if people coming at this with the "right" approach are simply failing with more dignity, what do you do? 

 

[crazydoc]

Do you shun them and shut them out of your life? 

So what does one do?

That's what I do. There are former friends and relatives I don't speak to any more - it's pointless. It would be tragic if we lived together, but luckily we don't. There are folks I will never jam with again, because now I couldn't enjoy playing music with them. I can still play with people who may hold some of these beliefs, but we have a tacit understanding to not discuss our political opinions with each other, and just enjoy the music.
People believe this stuff like it's religion, and no argument, facts, or evidence will disabuse them of their beliefs. And they are angry at me because I won't listen to their BS without telling them I think they are full of shit. So sad, this disconnect between belief and reality, because they think someone is going to take their candy away from them.

 

[iturnknobs]

ps. I just heard Twitter has suspended Donald Trump's account permanently.  From my point of view, this is the kind of action that should have happened much, much sooner.

+1 ... I would assume Wednesday's events would not have occurred if this were done sooner... but it wasn't.

 

[crazydoc]

ps. I just heard Twitter has suspended Donald Trump's account permanently.

That may not have been a good idea -it kept him occupied and his ego well fed. Now he may need more attention and will start diddling with the nuclear codes.

 

[living sounds]

Long before the Coronavirus it felt like a was virus going around that infects many people's minds... I've got friends who this has happened to. Argueing with them felt pointless and often got ugly and personal. I realized this year that we could actually end up on different sides of a barricade if push came to shove. It is sad. Sickening.

The best way to try to talk to them anyway is to first find common ground as much as possible in non-toxic areas of interest. Then show empathy and ask questions. Be non-confrontational. But it's hard.

And not much is going to change unless they stop feeding their minds with poisoned media. That's why I agree that one of the most important things that need to be done is much stricter regulation of the media, especially social media.

And law and order needs to be applied to those in power and political power needs to be limited. In the US, presidential powers have been expanded far beyond what was originally envisioned, and presidents like Nixon, Reagan, Bush and so far Trump as well as most of their underlings got away too long with too many of their various crimes. It ultimately erodes trust in institutions. Powerfull people need to be held to the same or even higher standards than those with little or no power.

And then economic inequality needs to be adressed. People with little or nothing to lose follow the pied piper so much more willingly...

Free democratic societies can implode and have before. There is no alternative to decisive action.

 

[hodad]

But look how many people voted for Trump the second time!  It's so shocking but I expected it.  They're not all bad people right?
-A

Not necessarily apropos of this particular quote (but I was going to write something else so it's the quote I clipped):  I read an interesting and lengthy twitter thread today.  A woman was talking about a curmudgeonly racist neighbor who (back when Obama was president) would regularly mention that Obama was born in Kenya.  One time she called him on this lie, and she surmised (perhaps correctly) that he didn't believe this at all.  That this easily disproven nonsense was a facade, a fig leaf that covered the real reason for his distaste for Obama.  It's easier, perhaps to perpetuate stupid lies about Obama than to say "I don't like him because he's black."

And if she's right about that, then perhaps some of the easily disproved lies that get bandied about here are nothing more than a fig leaf covering some darker and less defensible truth.  And if that's true, then their interest is not in being right (thus being immune to logic or evidence) but in perpetuating a myth that serves as a cover for their true feelings or intent.

I'm not sure I totally buy into this, but it's food for thought.  It certainly puts a different spin on some of the exchanges here where one party seems absolutely impervious to empirical evidence. 

 

[CJ]

rumps self inflicted chaotic presidency has obviously driven him to the brink, they should call the Looney Wagon and put him in a padded room with no sharp objects. maybe Guliani too.

the biggest issue for me is the total breakdown of law enforcement at the US capital. the time it took to clear the thugs was unbelievable.

as for the IQ level of the trespassers, taking selfies, wearing work badges, not wearing masks, all i can say is that Darwin was clearly at work here.

 

[CJ]

yeah, lets have a party while we watch people get murdered do to our handy work.

truly pathetic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXM6h9elyTY

 

[Script]

Seditious conspiracy and probably also breach of national security due to illegal access to computers and stealing of documents -- two of the hardest hammers that could come down on some of those who invaded the Capitol...

 

[iturnknobs]

Seditious conspiracy and probably also breach of national security due to illegal access to computers and stealing of documents -- two of the hardest hammers that could come down on some of those who invaded the Capitol...

Until those charges actually come forward and "stick" this situation is not even close to being "repaired". Can you believe that woman in the Capitol building was shot WITHOUT a cellphone in her hand? Idiots on the right are saying BLM supporters now support police violence against peaceful protesters. BREITBART has video of her climbing furniture and chairs used to barricade(and climbing through the broken window of the door)the remaining members of Congress in a "secured" chamber. 45% of Republicans polled approve of Wednesday's stunt. Trump supporters are calling for violence on Inauguration day. Not enough people died this week to deter stupidity further. Do not sympathize. Do not coddle. DO NOT ACCEPT. Silence is cooperation.

 

[hodad]

To be fair, that guy from Insurgence USA filming a documentary and right next to Babbitt when she was shot was a bit odd...But it has already been fact checked...

Still.... interesting...odd...

NBC News:
A digital flyer made public on Instagram and Facebook in December made little secret of the ambitions of some of the people planning to visit Washington on Jan. 6: “Operation Occupy the Capitol.”
On the fringe message board 8kun, which is popular with QAnon followers, for example, users talked for weeks about a siege of the Capitol, some talking about it like a foregone conclusion.

Pointing a finger at someone who was there to photograph the mayhem--regardless of whether he was in any way involved in the activity--is nothing more than an effort to deflect blame from those who are truly culpable.  The optics got really ugly in a hurry, and the action became ever harder to defend.  Typical right-wing response:  "It was those crazy radical leftists!!  They're the ones who really did this!!"  (Or maybe blaming antifa was baked into the plan from the beginning--I wouldn't be entirely surprised.)

It's amazing how quickly so many of these people run from their culpability.  Trump saying these people must be punished without acknowledging his own role in stirring up this "wild party;"  the invaders themselves, who start groveling and making excuses when they start losing jobs and getting questioned by the FBI.   

SIDENOTE:  It turns out I do know someone who was at the rally.  A very conservative guy who lives in the DC area--haven't spoken to him since he divorced his wife a decade or so ago.  He did not join in on the storming of the Capitol.

 

[hodad]

Nah... Just pointing out that there was in fact an instance of some other group there .. I personally think it was odd...

I don't think it's odd.  Why wouldn't someone of opposing views be interested in filming the other side committing crimes? 

I wasn't worried that you were blaming "antifa," but it's been done by large swaths of the right (including Republican members of Congress) as an excuse to deflect from their own culpability. 

 

[living sounds]

The screens in that "party" video clearly are showing the stage of Trump's ralley. I don't see any reason to assume anything other than that his video was shot before the incidents at the Capitol. I thought I had read or heard reporting that while the situation was unfolding there, Trump was already back at the WH.