the new "only" Covid thread

[Matador]

How about a paper from a medical journal or the W.H.O.
I wouldn't trust anything from that source.

Do you even Brewery, bro?

 

[AnalogPackrat]

I'm finishing up the last couple of chapters of Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s recent book "The Real Anthony Fauci" which I would recommend to anyone curious about how we got to the point where science is a no longer what it was into the 80s and 90s. He's followed the money (and the power) and explored in well-documented detail what has happened in medical research and technology the past 30 years (with a few bits that go further back).

 

[crazydoc]

well-documented detail what has happened in medical research and technology the past 30 years (with a few bits that go further back).

How about some links to his documentation.

 

[AnalogPackrat]

How about some links to his documentation.

It's a 450 page book with hundreds of notes per chapter. I cannot adequately summarize the information in hyperlink form. Maybe try reading it. Your local library may have a copy.

 

[living sounds]

I'm finishing up the last couple of chapters of Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s recent book "The Real Anthony Fauci" which I would recommend to anyone curious about how we got to the point where science is a no longer what it was into the 80s and 90s. He's followed the money (and the power) and explored in well-documented detail what has happened in medical research and technology the past 30 years (with a few bits that go further back).

Sorry, but Kennedy Jr. is an anti-vaccine crank. His books are filled with misinformation.

 

[crazydoc]

It's a 450 page book with hundreds of notes per chapter. I cannot adequately summarize the information in hyperlink form. Maybe try reading it. Your local library may have a copy.

Just a couple with actual data shouldn't be hard. I've no interest in reading a book by a mainly misinformed antivaxer, but will look at factual data about the great pharma conspiracy if it exists..

 

[AnalogPackrat]

Sorry, but Kennedy Jr. is an anti-vaccine crank. His books are filled with misinformation.

Yes, I've heard that tired wikipedia ad hominem argument before. I guess you are too close-minded to even consider that some of his critiques have merit. Or do you prefer a medical science system that is funded and controlled by big pharma and the oligarchs who profit from pills and shots? And your ad hominem against Kennedy is duly noted, hypocrite.

 

[living sounds]

Yes, I've heard that tired wikipedia ad hominem argument before. I guess you are too close-minded to even consider that some of his critiques have merit. Or do you prefer a medical science system that is funded and controlled by big pharma and the oligarchs who profit from pills and shots? And your ad hominem against Kennedy is duly noted, hypocrite.

So we're still not done with the personal attacks? I could show you lot's of good information demonstrating the systematic problems in Kennedys arguments, but I understand you are not interested.

My post was just to inform others.

 

[crazydoc]

Review of the book:
https://www.researchgate.net/public...mocracy_and_Public_Health_by_Robert_F_Kennedy
Counterpoint to the review:
https://journalofscientificexploration.org/index.php/jse/article/download/2471/1577
From the review:
Everything that is factual is extremely well supported by references. If I counted correctly—the notes are at the end of the chapters—then we are talking about roughly 2.200 references. Many of them
lead to newspaper and magazine publications, Youtube videos and interviews, but quite a few are also original
scientific references, monographs, and journal publications.

So let's see some links to them.

 

[AnalogPackrat]

So we're still not done with the personal attacks? I could show you lot's of good information demonstrating the systematic problems in Kennedys arguments, but I understand you are not interested.

But you didn't.

My post was just to inform others.

...about your closed-minded opinion. I think you merely replied out of spite. Are you afraid to read things that may challenge your current opinion or views?

 

[living sounds]

Afraid? Only of wasting my time with conspiratorial thinking and scientific illiteracy.

 

[AnalogPackrat]

Review of the book:
https://www.researchgate.net/public...mocracy_and_Public_Health_by_Robert_F_Kennedy
Counterpoint to the review:
https://journalofscientificexploration.org/index.php/jse/article/download/2471/1577
From the review:
Everything that is factual is extremely well supported by references. If I counted correctly—the notes are at the end of the chapters—then we are talking about roughly 2.200 references. Many of them
lead to newspaper and magazine publications, Youtube videos and interviews, but quite a few are also original
scientific references, monographs, and journal publications.

So let's see some links to them.

I think it is a disingenuous smear to call RFK, Jr anti-vaxx. Based on my reading so far he is a genuine advocate for science-based public health. He does question the "wisdom" of a pill for every ill which has nearly completely replaced preventative health measures in the past 30 years (not coincidentally with the ruling allowing direct advertising for drugs on TV, radio, etc.).

You can clearly see this bias if you watch pressers from the first half of 2020. There was virtually no public statememt made by governmemt officials about the importance of maintaining adequate serum Vitamin D levels for basic immune health, the utility of zinc supplementation, the importance of exercise, etc. Then we heard that safe and effective drugs like HCQ and Ivermectin were dangerous despite empirical evidence to the contrary from multiple sources. The mantra was simply to wait until you're very sick to go to the hospital, otherwise just stay inside and hide.

The book covers a lot of ground from Fauci's early days working with AIDS to later cooperation with Gates and his foundation to experimental vaccine trials in Africa to Covid. Which area are you interested in. I'll post one page of notes from a relevant part under fair use. Hopefully that would be ok with mods here.

 

[AnalogPackrat]

Afraid? Only of wasting my time with conspiratorial thinking and scientific illiteracy.

Ignorance is bliss.

 

[crazydoc]

Which area are you interested in. I'll post one page of notes from a relevant part under fair use. Hopefully that would be ok with mods here.

This part:
Presuppositions of self-interested collusion among actors in federal agencies, philanthropic institutions and the biopharmaceutical industry incorporate two accurate premises: they are all major funders of health science, and the pharmaceutical companies commercialize federally funded research. But what is actually going on, according to Robert F. Kennedy Jr, the head of the anti-vaccination organization Children’s Health Defence, is more sinister: philanthropist Bill Gates pays Dr Fauci, who in turn develops drugs and passes them to drug companies in which Gates is invested. Gates then guarantees markets in Africa through his control of the World Health Organization (WHO), which requires those countries to buy the drugs and vaccines1.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-021-01217-2
And BTW, Kennedy sells his book from an Amazon link on the "non-profit" website of the Children's Health Defense, of which he is the founder and chairman. I guess capitalism is OK for him, but not for big pharma.

https://childrenshealthdefense.org/fauci_info/

 

[AnalogPackrat]

This part:
Presuppositions of self-interested collusion among actors in federal agencies, philanthropic institutions and the biopharmaceutical industry incorporate two accurate premises: they are all major funders of health science, and the pharmaceutical companies commercialize federally funded research. But what is actually going on, according to Robert F. Kennedy Jr, the head of the anti-vaccination organization Children’s Health Defence, is more sinister: philanthropist Bill Gates pays Dr Fauci, who in turn develops drugs and passes them to drug companies in which Gates is invested. Gates then guarantees markets in Africa through his control of the World Health Organization (WHO), which requires those countries to buy the drugs and vaccines1.

Fauci met Gates in 1998 at Gate's home. Gates' "philanthropy" via his foundation is well-documented. His investments in big pharma are as well. Fauci's history of partnering and licensing IP from NIH sponsored research to big pharma and the deep connections between the grantees and major research universities and the no-longer-independent review process is also documented.

Looks like the CHD site has all references in electronic form, but some chapter titles are blank for some reason.

https://childrenshealthdefense.org/fauci_info/citations/

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-021-01217-2
And BTW, Kennedy sells his book from an Amazon link on the "non-profit" website of the Children's Health Defense, of which he is the founder and chairman. I guess capitalism is OK for him, but not for big pharma.

https://childrenshealthdefense.org/fauci_info/

How terrible. CHD had a reported budget of $6.8M in 2020. Hardly a huge and powerful organization. Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation had $49.8B in assets the same year. It funded WHO to the tune of 1.5B from 2009-15. But RFK Jr is the one who is corrupt.

And he isn't anti-capitalist AFAIK. He's anti corrupt science and for actual science with actual double blind placebo trials that run to completion and which have fully reported data. There's a reason much of human trial work is done in Africa. Hint: it isn't because of enhanced oversight.

I'm no fan of the Kennedys. I certainly don't agree with everything RFK Jr says or writes. But what he has documented, if even only a small fraction is true, is damning.

 

[crazydoc]

Fauci met Gates in 1998 at Gate's home.

Of my! That's definitely proof of collusion.

Gates' "philanthropy" via his foundation is well-documented. His investments in big pharma are as well.

So? That doesn't mean there's any nefarious scheme to promote ineffective or unsafe modalities for his profit - better to offer something that works as a money maker.

Looks like the CHD site has all references in electronic form,

No, I'm not going to peruse thousands of mostly irrelevant citations. I guess the bigger the bibliography the truer the story. If you can cite me any that give hard data supporting nefarious collusion in the great conspiracy, post. But I suppose you'd have to actually read them first.

How terrible. CHD had a reported budget of $6.8M in 2020. Hardly a huge and powerful organization. Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation had $49.8B in assets the same year. It funded WHO to the tune of 1.5B from 2009-15. But RFK Jr is the one who is corrupt.

I guess small time deceit isn't as bad as big time deceit.

There's a reason much of human trial work is done in Africa. Hint: it isn't because of enhanced oversight.

Hmm..., maybe it's because most of the developed world doesn't give a shit about Africans.

The AAS Clinical Trials Community states that only 2% of clinical trials globally, for all types of vaccines, take place in African nations and the WHO Africa Region. At the end of August, Africa had surpassed 1 million cases of COVID-19—an indication of the need to have vaccines tested on relevant populations. According to WHO, as of Aug 28, 2020, there are 33 COVID-19 vaccine candidates under clinical evaluation, of which two are in Africa.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7831818/
Anyway, what you think and what I think are completely meaningless and unimportant - we'll just go our own ways.

 

[AnalogPackrat]

Of my! That's definitely proof of collusion.

Is that what I said? No, it isn't. I pointed out a simple fact. They've cooperated for 24 years.

So? That doesn't mean there's any nefarious scheme to promote ineffective or unsafe modalities for his profit - better to offer something that works as a money maker.

Right. No perverse incentives or conflicts of interest to worry about.

No, I'm not going to peruse thousands of mostly irrelevant citations. I guess the bigger the bibliography the truer the story. If you can cite me any that give hard data supporting nefarious collusion in the great conspiracy, post. But I suppose you'd have to actually read them first.

Somehow I knew you'd refuse to look even when given easy to peruse electronic links.

I guess small time deceit isn't as bad as big time deceit.

In this case there doesn't seem to be any comparison at all.

Hmm..., maybe it's because most of the developed world doesn't give a shit about Africans.

And as a result there's little to no oversight or data integrity, never mind the moral and ethical issues of consent and abuse.

The AAS Clinical Trials Community states that only 2% of clinical trials globally, for all types of vaccines, take place in African nations and the WHO Africa Region. At the end of August, Africa had surpassed 1 million cases of COVID-19—an indication of the need to have vaccines tested on relevant populations. According to WHO, as of Aug 28, 2020, there are 33 COVID-19 vaccine candidates under clinical evaluation, of which two are in Africa.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7831818/

I never said anything about Covid vaccines. I said medical drug trials. Try again. But since you brought it up, there still haven't been any long-term safety trials for the Covid vaccines that have now been given to billions of humans.

Anyway, what you think and what I think are completely meaningless and unimportant - we'll just go our own ways.

You don't appear to be prepared to accept anything that might challenge your opinion.

 

[crazydoc]

You don't appear to be prepared to accept anything that might challenge your opinion.

Ditto - that's the way life is these days. I just go by Occam's razor.
Have a good future.

 

[AnalogPackrat]

Ditto - that's the way life is these days. I just go by Occam's razor.
Have a good future.

Except that I went from generally trusting Fauci and Birx in early 2020 to seeing the reality by mid 2020. Occam's Razor points to something other than serving the public good or following "the science."

 

[living sounds]

Hmm..., maybe it's because most of the developed world doesn't give a shit about Africans.

And because it's cheaper and there are far fewer regulations, less legal liability etc.

There is a lot to criticise about pharmaceutical companies and their operations. But that doesn't mean there is a grand conspiracy in the background. It simply isn't needed to conjure up the current status. And it would be extremely hard to maintain. Yes, Occam's Razor.