The Ultimate Analogue Desk

GroupDIY Audio Forum

Help Support GroupDIY Audio Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
analag said:
So when do we begin... :eek:

Yesterday  ;). I've got a bunch of notes scribbled on engineering paper for calibration process in GUI that I'll try to scan and poorly explain today.

Another thought on the switching, assuming motorpots are diy'ed and not alps:
Position 2 could be used in "reverse," backing out a digitally stored ohmage preset and offering a tone or visual indication in GUI when you're within, say, 5% of the desired value. Not unlike a guitar tuner, where indicator is constant when you're within range. Then you can finally have full recall of settings and work in "analog mode" without scouring for that napkin you scribbled on 6 months ago.

As in the first case, the alps pots make this unnecessary... But less fun! Could do both and have something worked into gear setup that allows for alps config.
 
grantlack said:
analag said:
So when do we begin... :eek:

Yesterday  ;). I've got a bunch of notes scribbled on engineering paper for calibration process in GUI that I'll try to scan and poorly explain today.

Another thought on the switching, assuming motorpots are diy'ed and not alps:
Position 2 could be used in "reverse," backing out a digitally stored ohmage preset and offering a tone or visual indication in GUI when you're within, say, 5% of the desired value. Not unlike a guitar tuner, where indicator is constant when you're within range. Then you can finally have full recall of settings and work in "analog mode" without scouring for that napkin you scribbled on 6 months ago.

As in the first case, the alps pots make this unnecessary... But less fun! Could do both and have something worked into gear setup that allows for alps config.

I imagine hearing a tone for say couple of hunder knobs would get annoying, quickly, and distract from listening the music ;) Led indicator could work. Make flickering speed or intensity to indicate how far it is from snapshot value? bi-color led to show green on positive and red negative "distance". ( yes, this is all I can contribute to this topic, brainfarts :D)

edit:
 
tmuikku said:
I imagine hearing a tone for say couple of hunder knobs would get annoying, quickly, and distract from listening the music ;) Led indicator could work. Make flickering speed or intensity to indicate how far it is from snapshot value? bi-color led to show green on positive and red negative "distance". ( yes, this is all I can contribute to this topic, brainfarts :D)

Thought of that too, which brought me to the visual feedback. Left it in as a thought because it kind of depends on how "remote" your remote setup is and whether you have the visual nearby. In the case of existing gear, some may not want to add LEDs, so on-screen may be better. An outboard servo/relay controller motherboard would be necessary to feed the in-unit daughterboards though, so that's a potential frontpanel location for LED... or LCD :-X?
 
Well, you'd only need to calibrate once, right?  I don't think it would be too bad if you had a somewhat arduous calibration procedure on the initial build if you don't have to do it very often.

I dug into the Arduino stuff this weekend for the first time.  Not too bad, I must say!  Very easy to use.  It's kind of trivial, but for a start I managed to do a couple of toggle pushbuttons that light up or shut off when pressed.  That same 5V that I'm lighting the light with can do whatever it needs to in order to implement the function.. run a relay via NPN or whatever.

I can also control them remotely from the computer.  Further, the computer gets feedback when a button is pushed manually so it can track state. And, I made a function to query the current state of every button in case say, you are using it standalone and turn on the computer in the middle of whatever you're doing or it needs to recover from some error.

It's pretty rough, and would need a UI wrapped around it and a far better defined protocol, but that's basic recall for a few buttons.  Automation can certainly follow pretty easily if some sort of timecode sync is worked out (is that available via midi from the DAW??  Haven't looked into that at all).  Or maybe I shouldn't say "easily" since there are a good many challenges there, but I can see how it would develop.

Now we just need slidey pots and spinney pots (which it sounds like we're on the way to).. the rest is just polish.

A question.. how do we feel about digital pots?  They speak I2C, which would be very easy to plug into the environment.  I've got no experience at all with them myself.  I'm thinking that because then your calibration issues are handled in the software and it's all relative to itself, and you wouldn't have to worry about dead-on positioning of the pot in order to get it back to where it was last time.  I know that the recall will tell the dig pot exactly where to be and it'll tell the physical control where to be relative to that.
 
horvitz said:
how do we feel about digital pots?

http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=33487.0
http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=26985.0
http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=37220.0
http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=31529.0
http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=25108.0
http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=24223.0

or:

http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=655.0

JD 'use the search, Luke!' B.
 
Calibration within a unit would be a one-time procedure, I've got a lot of UI and procedural thoughts on that which I'll try and flesh out later tonight. What I was referring to was more of a 'settings recall' procedure that one could concieveably conduct to pull back into the directly controlled realm with the unit's original pots. Not something I would necessarily want, but some might.
I imagine integration into the DAW would be best accomplished by writing the program as a standalone and communicate with a vst via the midi bus.
That stuff and additional reading is why I opted to go the motorpot route, it keeps the connection between analog and digital purely mechanical.
Re: the arduino, it strikes me as more of a proof of concept than anything, we'd need something more dedicated for the task in a final hardware setup. There is info about controlling servo/relay controller daughter boards via arduino, which is a bridge to cross once we figure out what in the holy hell we're getting ourselves into on a more basic (arduino only) level.
 
Agreed on all points, for sure.  I also had in mind a stand-alone app.. integrate the DAW later as needed.  Something like your UAD control panel running in the background.

You are certainly well ahead of me in the thought process, and I hate to duplicate effort.  Let me know where I can help out.
 
here's a roughed out thought of what a 'gear designer' (TM!!! hahah) UI would be like.  basically, i envision being able to create templates of gear so that once one person sorts it out they can share it.  to set it up for both analog and digital control, check preserve manual control.  this will obviously change the way the unit will be assembled.  custom name allows the user to name their gear whatever they like in the "virtual rig" (pending...;)).  maybe you prefer "COMP1", etc, or have multiples of the same unit to tag w/ a number?  go for it.  this is how it will be displayed under the "hardware config" menu, and presumably within a vst.  virtual rig sounds wayyyy cooler 8).  under controller you would tell it the type of controller daughterboard(s) being used.  if your unit is still at original spec, click use defaults and it'll auto-assign each servo/relay to the pinout of the controller and assign control properties based on the template.  then assembly instructions will pop up, telling you what type or value of relay or pot to attach to which pins.  build, use, smile.

if, for example, your iteration of the 312 has an output pad?  click the arrow to trigger the edit dropdown.  add 'output pad' (whoops, forgot name fields for the individual components) and assign it to the next pin/pins.  change pin status: active, device: relay, function: pushbutton, taper: none, continuity: discrete if you're using a latching relay or continuous if it's the non-latched variety.  obviously omitted the pole/throw structure and didn't fully account for momentary switching, but this just a first thought.  then in the list box click custom, and edit to be manufacturer: mitsos, model:312, class: pre.  click ok, and you've just made a new template.  then, like before, it spits out which devices to connect to which pins of the controller daughterboard instead of having to dig through the edit menu again.
 

Attachments

  • editorGUI.jpg
    editorGUI.jpg
    205.7 KB · Views: 89
here's some expanded thoughts on the selectable parameters of the dropdown lists in the edit menu.  again, a quick first blush.

the stuff at the bottom obviously pertains solely to the motorpots, and would not be configurable if a relay was the device in question.
 

Attachments

  • editPROPERTIES.jpg
    editPROPERTIES.jpg
    188 KB · Views: 39
nice post , tmuikku
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWiLR-GW8rs

...."THAT" is the last end that will make almost the hardwares
dedicated to control the softwares (for dj , audio , graphic tablets ,and many many much other ....)
a glass panel with "emulation "......nothing else

then no more reason to spend time,moneys, and whatever...
for make a remote control .....

...also possible use that "glass panel" as window of the control room
or bed ,living,kitchen ,etc ....  ;D

don't put your moneys in the trash for buy any "hard device"...
the music will always pay less ("thanks" to the piracy..)

...hmmm .. so  a cool "window" .. for a "room"

peace

tmuikku said:
I found loosely related video of a control surface. Seems to work fine in DJ context at least.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWiLR-GW8rs
 
Gentlemen,

I admit to being "off-line" from this forum for many months (perhaps a year or three?) due to work (designing/installing hi-def video facliities....The Dark Side!  lol) and other projects/reasons.  I stumbled across this thread, and saw a reference/link early in the thread to the Stupid Things A Youngster Might Do <G!>:

http://www.brianroth.com/projects/m77/m77.html

Of course, that caught my interest <g> and I then read through all 9 pages of this thread.

I do see that the originator (Joel) has been MIA for months now....perhaps he became discouraged??

In the meantime while I've been away from prodigy-pro, I had the challenge of bringing this Olde School/Monster (Amek 9098) "back from the dead":

http://www.brianroth.com/pix/aaron/april2009/

http://www.brianroth.com/pix/aaron/9098-nov2010/

It KIND of fits the original parameters for this thread.....48 x 48 x 48  (split monitor) with moving faders and recall of all pots and switches.  But, that desk is HUGE, and is only a "recall" desk.  Sidebar:  I have PDF copies of all the tech docs if anyone is interested.

Further discussions in this thread made me think of the older Euphonix desks, with a digi UI that controlled a bunch of analog stuff located in a "back room" rack.  While I seldom do tracking/mixing these days, I still "vote" for one fader per audio channel versus having to page through various screens.  Perhaps that comes from my "FOH years" eons ago?

Touch-sensitive motorized slidewire faders still seem like a great UI to me.  Having every other setting on every channel (aux sends, etc) available at my fingertips seems a bit overkill...hence a "super channel" makes sense.  Otari did that with channel switching/routing on the Concept-One desks.

And finally, the comments about cooling (and indirectly...power supplies) leads me to link what that Amek 9008 required:

http://www.brianroth.com/pix/aaron/mps15/

The room with the power supplies (and all those fans "spinning") was almost as noisy as standing at the runway at the airport!  Not to mention approx. 60 Amps from the AC Mains at 120 VAC when "idle"....

Good to be back here, and I'll try to follow this thread in the future.

Best,

Bri





 
Brian Roth said:
I was thinking about pushing virtual faders..or sliding fingers in glass....

I dunno....tactile is missing....

Bri

it has its advantages and disadvantages.  i have a burnt out 65" DLP tv on hold for $100 (thanks craigslist!) so once i pick it up and replace the bulb i'm going to make it a desk for daw multi-touch based off of this:
http://labs.ideo.com/2009/02/11/hacked-rear-projection-tv-into-multitouch-display
with the laser plane rather than FTIR tactile is pretty easy, it picks up whatever breaks the plane of IR light so it could track a knob with some ingenuity.  resistance to movement would be the only kicker.
reaper 4 lets you work wonders with the mixer GUI so i can dress it up to taste, and it will eventually support OSC so at that point control messages would be a breeze.  till then, the ReaMidiControl plugin should give me proof of concept.  lots of other priorities trumping this one though, may be a summer project.
 
Hello to all and thanks for the "re-welcome", after a Long Time away from this forum......

First of all <g>:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPP6L1_ooaQ

"If I was king of the forest......"

I learned a LOT working with that giant Amek 9098, including smart ways to do power distribution.

One thing I've seldom seen (besides in the 9098) in recording desks are individual fuses on each module for each rail.  Instead of a "fire breaking out" on a PCB, the fuse merely pops.  In addition, in the 9098, the multiple PSU rails are "branched" into circuit sub-sections via 5R6 Ohm "fused" resistors.  Hence, if a rail bypass cap shorts, the resistor blows.... versus having a fire on the circuit board.

If I was making anything as complex as discussed in this thread, I would take those PSU precautions.

I will also continue to chime-in here re. the UI.....I tried imagining using VR glasses and a glove to do a Real World mix, and somehow it makes no sense to me.  Maybe i am just TOO OLD....lol.

Best,

Bri

PS...I guess Joel threw in the towel........


 
Also FWIW:  here is a snapshot of the required PSU cables after I dismantled the 9098 desk:

http://www.brianroth.com/pix/aaron/9098move/IMG_0114.JPG

Other pix as that monster was moved:

http://www.brianroth.com/pix/aaron/9098move/

Best,

Bri

 
Back
Top