Voyager10
Well-known member
I don't want to wander off-topic, but the couple I have ring quite noticeably when tapped, and you can hear it with sources which hit that resonant frequency.. The MP replacement is much better.
Topic: Are Mic Parts Capsules Snake Oil?
- Thread starter Wordsushi
- Start date
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This has been a spectacularly entertaining discussion. Thank you all for your honest opinions. I'm going to wrap up my participation in this conversation, having reached my own conclusions with your help.
First though, I can't imagine that in this day and age with Google notifications that Matt hasn't seen, or isn't aware of, this conversation and, quite possibly, has not replied out of fear of being pilloried. It's kind of a no-win situation for him to engage with this thread, but it makes me think that I don't believe there has really been a comprehensive explanation from him, at any time in the past, that covers this topic of his capsule price points with anything that resembles plausibility.
I realize that sounds like a harsh statement to make and I feel like he has given the "cost of having to QC lots of wheat to get to the chaff..." a casual hand wave a few times, but if it were me and my brand, I'd have a dedicated page on my site explaining the value of that work in a way that inspires. (Which would also serve as a real SEO asset as well).
In the past, I recall he has posted about the R&D involved in creating the circuit kits. The time and cost of development deserve to be recouped and the service of providing one with a kit with clear instructions has real value, so I don't begrudge him for what he charges for kits. And if you didn't learn anything building one of his kits, then you might not know what it's like approaching Mic DIY from the perspective of an electronics virgin, which is fine. But you also may not realize that:
MIC PARTS IS IN THE EXPERIENCE BUSINESS.
Not the teaching business. They are selling the "experience" of building something that their demographic will be delighted by when they prove to themselves that "they can do it." It's like that Indoor Sky Diving thing. You pay to have a fun, guided experience and maybe you learn a thing or two, but in the end, you should leave satisfied and possibly wanting more. That's it.
I hope all of us can remember the first time you built something that worked as intended. It's a powerful feeling that transcends the moment, imbuing one with a sense of accomplishment. And the reason I'm fairly certain building Mic Parts kits has created a number of Mic DIY enthusiasts is because I'm one of those people.
So, I'm not here to demean the value of his kits because he's added a "development recoupment and concierge convenience fee" to it.
But what I can unequivocally say is that I'd never buy or recommend any of his capsules at their current price points. If his capsules sold for $99, given their provenance, this conversation would never have happened. But as it now seems that, for the same price, I could buy 3-5 of the same capsules direct from China and do my own QC to pick the best one, I've departed the Mic Parts capsule demographic for good. I just continue not to be a fan of how Mic Parts tries to position their capsules as being of Premium quality when they are, at best, mid-line. That just feels a bit greasy. But I also continue to believe that the inflated price of capsules is their bread and butter and keeps the lights on and if people are willing to pay it, and as long as I'm not forced to, it's no skin off my back.
PS. I kind of vaguely recall hearing that story that Matt had to pay to dispose of a bunch of inventory he couldn't sell, but I seem to think it had to do with damage in transit of a couple pallets of mic suitcases. I don't think he paid 1-800-Got-Junk to cart off a 55 gallon drum of rejected capsules.
But it does beg the question... what happens to all the Mic Parts QC rejects? Do they get resold out there, pawned off by the pound like surplus clothing? What about B-stock where one side of a dual-sided capsule is fine for cardioid only? You'd think a process that yields only a fraction of the inventory worthy of being sold would also create a consistent stream of B-stock, right?
Anyway, again thank you all for playing.
First though, I can't imagine that in this day and age with Google notifications that Matt hasn't seen, or isn't aware of, this conversation and, quite possibly, has not replied out of fear of being pilloried. It's kind of a no-win situation for him to engage with this thread, but it makes me think that I don't believe there has really been a comprehensive explanation from him, at any time in the past, that covers this topic of his capsule price points with anything that resembles plausibility.
I realize that sounds like a harsh statement to make and I feel like he has given the "cost of having to QC lots of wheat to get to the chaff..." a casual hand wave a few times, but if it were me and my brand, I'd have a dedicated page on my site explaining the value of that work in a way that inspires. (Which would also serve as a real SEO asset as well).
In the past, I recall he has posted about the R&D involved in creating the circuit kits. The time and cost of development deserve to be recouped and the service of providing one with a kit with clear instructions has real value, so I don't begrudge him for what he charges for kits. And if you didn't learn anything building one of his kits, then you might not know what it's like approaching Mic DIY from the perspective of an electronics virgin, which is fine. But you also may not realize that:
MIC PARTS IS IN THE EXPERIENCE BUSINESS.
Not the teaching business. They are selling the "experience" of building something that their demographic will be delighted by when they prove to themselves that "they can do it." It's like that Indoor Sky Diving thing. You pay to have a fun, guided experience and maybe you learn a thing or two, but in the end, you should leave satisfied and possibly wanting more. That's it.
I hope all of us can remember the first time you built something that worked as intended. It's a powerful feeling that transcends the moment, imbuing one with a sense of accomplishment. And the reason I'm fairly certain building Mic Parts kits has created a number of Mic DIY enthusiasts is because I'm one of those people.
So, I'm not here to demean the value of his kits because he's added a "development recoupment and concierge convenience fee" to it.
But what I can unequivocally say is that I'd never buy or recommend any of his capsules at their current price points. If his capsules sold for $99, given their provenance, this conversation would never have happened. But as it now seems that, for the same price, I could buy 3-5 of the same capsules direct from China and do my own QC to pick the best one, I've departed the Mic Parts capsule demographic for good. I just continue not to be a fan of how Mic Parts tries to position their capsules as being of Premium quality when they are, at best, mid-line. That just feels a bit greasy. But I also continue to believe that the inflated price of capsules is their bread and butter and keeps the lights on and if people are willing to pay it, and as long as I'm not forced to, it's no skin off my back.
PS. I kind of vaguely recall hearing that story that Matt had to pay to dispose of a bunch of inventory he couldn't sell, but I seem to think it had to do with damage in transit of a couple pallets of mic suitcases. I don't think he paid 1-800-Got-Junk to cart off a 55 gallon drum of rejected capsules.
But it does beg the question... what happens to all the Mic Parts QC rejects? Do they get resold out there, pawned off by the pound like surplus clothing? What about B-stock where one side of a dual-sided capsule is fine for cardioid only? You'd think a process that yields only a fraction of the inventory worthy of being sold would also create a consistent stream of B-stock, right?
Anyway, again thank you all for playing.
"..I hope all of us can remember the first time you built something that worked as intended. It's a powerful feeling that transcends the moment.."
Yup, I was so keen on the old Film Industries M8 ribbon mics that I gradually acquired a few, but the latest one arrived with no ribbon: it had crumbled ages ago by the looks of it. Should I send it to Stewart Tavener (here in the UK) to re-ribbon it? ..No; this time I'll try it myself.
So I bought a sheet or twenty of aluminium foil, a pair of cogs to 'concertina' the foil, and - after five tries - I did it! ..Re-ribboned my own mic. And the mic sounds great ..and, to a great extent, because I did it. Like re-grinding your own (car engine) valves, aligning your prop shaft and fitting a propeller to your own boat, fitting and swinging your own compass ..or first-time capsule-swapping after suggestions on Matt's MicParts.
And after comments here, I bought direct from China - though postage and import fees certainly knocked down the savings over MicParts prices. In fact I later bought the same Takstar mics (from the UK importer here) via eBay for the exact same £28 (US$35) - including 'free' postage - that it had cost to buy from China ..but which - from China - had had customs and postage added on, plus the £30 cost of Customs' opening and appraising the contents!
What I'm saying is, MicParts was the intro to what I was looking for, and, though I've since moved on, the price of the intro was well worth it, like any education is. [Which is why I pay to support GDIY.]
Yup, I was so keen on the old Film Industries M8 ribbon mics that I gradually acquired a few, but the latest one arrived with no ribbon: it had crumbled ages ago by the looks of it. Should I send it to Stewart Tavener (here in the UK) to re-ribbon it? ..No; this time I'll try it myself.
So I bought a sheet or twenty of aluminium foil, a pair of cogs to 'concertina' the foil, and - after five tries - I did it! ..Re-ribboned my own mic. And the mic sounds great ..and, to a great extent, because I did it. Like re-grinding your own (car engine) valves, aligning your prop shaft and fitting a propeller to your own boat, fitting and swinging your own compass ..or first-time capsule-swapping after suggestions on Matt's MicParts.
And after comments here, I bought direct from China - though postage and import fees certainly knocked down the savings over MicParts prices. In fact I later bought the same Takstar mics (from the UK importer here) via eBay for the exact same £28 (US$35) - including 'free' postage - that it had cost to buy from China ..but which - from China - had had customs and postage added on, plus the £30 cost of Customs' opening and appraising the contents!
What I'm saying is, MicParts was the intro to what I was looking for, and, though I've since moved on, the price of the intro was well worth it, like any education is. [Which is why I pay to support GDIY.]
It's hard to build and run any business these days and I want to encourage those who try. Not all of us are the target audience and they generally have a very satisfied customer base. Charging a 50-100% markup is pretty much essential to cover overhead in a small business.
I have no info supporting or discrediting his claims of QC. But having worked in tangential industries a bit, there tends to be more uniformity among large orders than among small. Essentially, the buyer provides their target measurements and the company ships only those within the tolerances. The ones that we buy in individual or small increments on Ali tend to be either general surplus or those that tested outside the tolerance range of the large batch customers. They're usually fine, but not always and there's some added risk/variability.
We might be fine with those extra risks (as well as general import risks), but I wouldn't recommend that approach to absolute newbies. I'd tell them to buy a kit. MP makes good kits and most customers are content. I've used them myself when I didn't have the time or desire to order a bunch of parts, boards, and test everything myself. Sometimes you pay for parts, sometimes you pay for service. I'm glad that there's suppliers at different points on that spectrum.
I have no info supporting or discrediting his claims of QC. But having worked in tangential industries a bit, there tends to be more uniformity among large orders than among small. Essentially, the buyer provides their target measurements and the company ships only those within the tolerances. The ones that we buy in individual or small increments on Ali tend to be either general surplus or those that tested outside the tolerance range of the large batch customers. They're usually fine, but not always and there's some added risk/variability.
We might be fine with those extra risks (as well as general import risks), but I wouldn't recommend that approach to absolute newbies. I'd tell them to buy a kit. MP makes good kits and most customers are content. I've used them myself when I didn't have the time or desire to order a bunch of parts, boards, and test everything myself. Sometimes you pay for parts, sometimes you pay for service. I'm glad that there's suppliers at different points on that spectrum.
there is government red tape related to customs declaration of returned items so a lot of smaller companies or companies that are not state-supported or operating with full state approval have extremely complicated return procedures that can often include extortionate, over-sized bonds with trading companies that do have import/export rights. for small to medium sized returns, these bonds can be 2, 5, or even 10 times the declared value of the items, and the liability to pay falls on the company receiving the return. many companies cannot afford this so they have various ways around it, including simply not allowing returns. he is not lying. this is a reality of doing business with many companies that aren't state run like 797. the point is to exert pressure in certain sectors to do business with government run or contracted institutions. china is extremely unfriendly to small and medium sized businesses.
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Matador
Well-known member
In all of the companies I've worked for who've done business in China, every one of them needed to send employees to monitor production lines whenever (new) products are being ramped up. The only way to guarantee things are done correctly is to have boots on the ground, at the factory, to make sure it happens.
Obviously we can't do that as small businesses: we are reliant on the factory QC, and even then it's a crap shoot. I recounted in another thread that I considered purchasing and QC'ing vacuum tubes from PSVane in order to fulfill my own amp repair and custom builds, however I've found QC to be so horrid that I ended up disposing of almost 50% of the tubes due to noise, microphonics, horrid gain, etc. There's nothing to do other than dump at electronic recycling (fortunately the total volume of even 100 tubes is pretty small).
However I bet if I was there, overseeing the testing and watching the good stock being packaged for shipment to me, that my end-product would be significantly better even for the same per-unit cost.
Obviously we can't do that as small businesses: we are reliant on the factory QC, and even then it's a crap shoot. I recounted in another thread that I considered purchasing and QC'ing vacuum tubes from PSVane in order to fulfill my own amp repair and custom builds, however I've found QC to be so horrid that I ended up disposing of almost 50% of the tubes due to noise, microphonics, horrid gain, etc. There's nothing to do other than dump at electronic recycling (fortunately the total volume of even 100 tubes is pretty small).
However I bet if I was there, overseeing the testing and watching the good stock being packaged for shipment to me, that my end-product would be significantly better even for the same per-unit cost.
this is why i spent a year training my own staff. because it is literally the only way to do this efficiently with the red tape involved. every other way of doing it has monumental downsides.
i understand matt's pain, honestly. i'd make his capsules if he asked, after we got things up and running a bit faster.
Icantthinkofaname
Well-known member
I disagree. He says many things that are objectively false to move his products. Like the RK-87 being flat, even recommending putting it in a TLM 103 to make those flatter. This has been measured by one of our own members to be one of the brightest capsules of that type. He also claims the RK12 is similar to a CK12. It's not. That doesn't mean it's bad, in fact I like the sound of those Chinese edge terminated capsules, but he's deliberately misrepresentating his inventory to get people to buy.
It's a good thing Matt hasn't been known to lie about his products. Oh wait... (And yes he's deliberately lying, he's been informed he's wrong by members of our forum and won't listen).
We're not talking about a 50-100% markup. Matt's charging roughly 5x what the capsules cost, maybe more because of volume pricing. If he wants to buy from a company like Takstar or 797 and double, I'd probably be fine with giving him $60 or $70 for a capsule. But I'm not giving him $170 for a capsule that probably cost him $20.
And we don't only criticize Matt either, Telefunken got criticized for using the same cheap capsules in their Alchemy mics.
I would actually love to see that. Especially if it means there's a chance of you making edge terminated ones.
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would you buy an edge terminated k67? i have the backplates and rings right here. we could make some tomorrow if there was interest
Hello I have a question for Marc. @Wordsushi
I would like to build a U47 microphone for UAD sphere pluggin
Could you tell me what capsule did you put into you sphere U47 microphone
Is it a Arienne 47 flat or a M7 from 3 Audio? Thank You
Do you like the microphone with the UAD plugging
Do you have any advise. Thank You
Best regards
François.
Please feel free to contact me through my prived messagerie on Groupdiy
Thank you
I would like to build a U47 microphone for UAD sphere pluggin
Could you tell me what capsule did you put into you sphere U47 microphone
Is it a Arienne 47 flat or a M7 from 3 Audio? Thank You
Do you like the microphone with the UAD plugging
Do you have any advise. Thank You
Best regards
François.
Please feel free to contact me through my prived messagerie on Groupdiy
Thank you
Last year, someone connected me with a startup Chinese capsule factory (whose name I don't know) and they sent me a couple of their M7 style capsules, which didn't really sound like M7s, but had a nice high end lift. I was told they were going to put up an online store, but as far as I know it never materialized. The guy I was communicating with speaks no english so I had to use Google Translate in order for us to have very rudimentary conversations. I think they may have put their capsules up on Aliexpress, but I really don't know.
I never really fully used with UAD sphere plug in beyond just a few tests here, and while I was pleased with being able to get something different out of the Sphere software, I can't recall if I liked it better or not. But is it an experiment worth trying? Absolutely yes. I had honestly forgotten about this mic until now, so thank you for reminding me.
Recording Engineer
Well-known member
This is interesting… I’ve heard a friend for 25-years say 5x of the cost of parts is what you sell the product for; granted, this is specifically about products you built.
I should also add that there’s no way in hell I’d do all that he does for only 50-100%!
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That being what, exactly? And "he" being Matt, or your friend?
Recording Engineer
Well-known member
Matt.
I don’t know… A few things off the top of my head… Doing business with a separate country with a different language and business customs and dealing with all that when the product shows-up not being in the state of what I paid for and expected to resell. Lots of upfront cash being spent for product. Dealing with customs, social media, advertising, shipping, taxes, employees or even just “helpers” (when too much for me alone).
what i think recording engineer is saying is that his products are so cheap that there is no way for him to offset his operation costs without large markups, which is true. he could conceivably price his capsules cheap if he cross-subsidized them with profits from his Roswell business or another job, but there probably isn't that much there given the low retail price. it's really the difference between setting something up as a side hustle vs a main job. side hustles can tolerate lower margins. my grandpa told me when i was deciding my pricing model that when it comes to stuff like this, you should set the price to what allows you to eat and not consider the cost or how big or small the markup is at all.
RuudNL
Well-known member
Whatever it is, I will never buy his overpriced microphone parts...
Recording Engineer
Well-known member
Nor me… But it doesn’t matter. As been said many times, we’re not his customer-base anyhow. Although, I did buy a B-Stock couple bodies super-cheap from him back in 2014, 15, or 16. Still have never used them, but cool-enough to hang on to after all the years. Probably finally going to be used for the next project or the one after the next one.
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