Unplanned population growth

[desol]

@abbeyroad

No one is here to plug any holes, mislead anyone, take advantage of people, etc. Or at least, this has nothing to do with me.

I understand your offense and it's reasonable.

But, this is all off topic! ...and I'm off to have  a coffee!

- I did do a bit of reading this morning however, into the planned parenthood issues facing different African nations and the foundations, technologies, funding, etc that are involved. Much tension surrounding this...

 

[boji]

"That's a very human weakness [to deify chaos]"

Yeah except it was/is fundamentally responsible for us being alive here, today, with all that we got.
It's how we exploited the two hemispheres as distinct from reptiles, and why order and chaos are meaningful to us, and probably why we believe in words to make sense of the world.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

No one is here to plug any holes, mislead anyone, take advantage of people, etc. Or at least, this has nothing to do with me.

I don't doubt it.

But, this is all off topic!

I don't think it is; early in this thread, religion has been identified as one of the major elements of the problem.

I did do a bit of reading this morning however, into the planned parenthood issues facing different African nations and the foundations, technologies, funding, etc that are involved.

Any links?

 

[abbey road d enfer]

Yeah except it was/is fundamentally responsible for us being alive here, today, with all that we got.
It's how we exploited the two hemispheres as distinct from reptiles, and why order and chaos are meaningful to us, and probably why we believe in words to make sense of the world.

That is an interesting view. I would think the capacity of abstraction is what distinguishes humans from animals. Maybe religion is the result of hyperactivity of the areas involved in abstraction. Too much of a good thing...

 

[JohnRoberts]

Indeed. religions (and gods) have been created to give an easy answer to the most teething questions of humanity: Where do we come from? Why are we here? What do we become after death? Those who invented the answers understood they had a superior power that allowed them to extort their fellow men in order to live a lazy and protected life.

not to quote Karl Marx too much but he famously wrote  "religion is the opium of the people"

Since I live in the middle of the bible belt, religion runs pretty deep around here. After I had a letter to the editor published in the local newspaper defending the teaching of evolution in school, I got a phone call at the house from a distressed believer having trouble with the cognitive dissonance I created by injecting a second conflicting thought inside his one thought at a time head. 

I told him to disregard me and listen to his church leaders... Glad he was a harmless type. Some don't deal with disagreement as calmly.

JR

This, I don't understand. Do you mean the simple fact that thieves, crooks, rapists, murderers, jihadists ... exist justifies their existence?
This, also, needs an explanation. I'm not a latinist, so I had to google it, and was flooded with references to an Umberto Eco book.

 

[boji]

That is an interesting view.

It's not my idea. You know full well how I plagiarize the better-minded, abby.   
It just rings true to me when taking the psycho-evolutionary longview.  I've mentioned somewhere around here I've undergone a shift towards a re-appreciation for religion in terms of natural selection.
It's beyond a truism to point to all the death surrounding organised religion throughout history and say it is viral, pathogenic in nature, but I can't escape a different conclusion that we are here today not in spite of religion, but due to how it has made our brains evolve.  But hey, I also think the 'stoned ape' theory holds some weight, so what do I know.

Fun read!
https://www.inverse.com/article/34186-stoned-ape-hypothesis

Edit: Excerpt: “What is really important for you to understand is that there was a sudden doubling of the human brain 200,000 years ago. From an evolutionary point of view, that’s an extraordinary expansion. And there is no explanation for this sudden increase in the human brain.”

 

[desol]

Any links?

Yes. Here:
https://psmag.com/magazine/new-war-on-birth-control

This is the article I found interesting this AM, for light perusing. I haven't delved much into the subject matter, but this is what I was reading this morning.

 

[boji]

"I got a phone call at the house from a distressed believer having trouble with the cognitive dissonance I created by injecting a second conflicting thought inside his one thought at a time head. "

Bhahaha! ;D ;D ;D

 

[desol]

This, I don't understand. Do you mean the simple fact that thieves, crooks, rapists, murderers, jihadists ... exist justifies their existence?

This, also, needs an explanation. I'm not a latinist, so I had to google it, and was flooded with references to an Umberto Eco book.

I know it's difficult to understand, and it is justifiable and reasonable to assume there is nothing, due to the existence of terrible things that happen.

 

[DaveP]

What is really important for you to understand is that there was a sudden doubling of the human brain 200,000 years ago. From an evolutionary point of view, that’s an extraordinary expansion. And there is no explanation for this sudden increase in the human brain.”

Some people think that this is when childbirth became difficult for women (re: Eve's punishment etc)  Interesting to note that mitochondrial Eve is dated to the same point.

DaveP

 

[boji]

Some people think that this is when childbirth became difficult for women (re: Eve's punishment etc)  Interesting to note that mitochondrial Eve is dated to the same point.

Indeed interesting.  Those early stories have all sorts of cross-contamination with pre-abrahamic faiths, Egyptian, Mesopotamian, etc. Stories of the flood can be found in nearly all ancient religious texts, which suggests it may have been passed down orally as far back as 10k years ago, going back to the Younger Dryas event (Comet impact theory).

The three kooky horsemen podcast:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFlAFo78xoQ

 

[dmp]

I just read "the lessons of history" by Durant. Great book. And it's pretty short.

In it the author explains how children used to be a resource in agricultural societies (children would be an asset once they were old enough work) but this has changed with an industrial / technology society. Changing this 'nature' of humanity is not a simple switch. 

 

[DaveP]

That makes  sense, now they need a specialist/technological education to find work.

The Child Resource scheme of things lasted for millennia.

DaveP

 

[benb]

Now with automation and robots, many are wondering how long the Human Resource scheme is going to last. Seven billion is going to be a lot of people out of work.

 

[SPbStan]

I am new here so might be speaking [writing] where not welcome but in all these posts about migration the source of most that impacts Europe, and it surely does, is not overpopulation at all. A sure fire way to stem the floods into Europe is to stop bombing poor brown skin countries. Macron seems to have forgotten that he is actively involved in the actions and supports those of other countries which are keeping wars in all those regions going. Now many of the millions in the Middle Easy went because it was too dangerous to stay where they had homes and communities that were flattened by western bombers and western backed mercenaries?  The US alone has troops doing covert operations, use of force, in 52 of the 54 African countries. Why?  No one can explain it without causing laughter or disgust. The claimed reason to change regimes, often democratic governments, was because the US has the right to violate all international law simply because no one can stop them.
I travel a lot(90 countries), and have lived outside the US for 18 years and find that many of these targetted countries were much more stable and equitable before the invasion. Maybe if NATO and the US just minded their own business the millions streaming out of their historic lands would stay at home and build better lives.  The fastest growing regions of the world  in terms of improvement in quality of life are in places westerners think are backward and desperate. Africa has the fastest growing economies.
The countries that are getting the infrastructure assistance from China are making radical improvements. For example with the new ports, airports, cargo transit systems, high speed rail, dams, schools and power systems,  poverty has been cut dramatically, not with money aid but assistance in essential infrastructure, without crippling IMF loans that destroy almost every developing country's economy that allows them. Africa now has 7 times more high speed rail than ALL of North America.
Instead of spending a Trillion dollars on foreign military occupation and dozens of wars of aggression imaging how much different Europe and the US would be if that money was used to create a secure sustainable society for those living in it.
It is too late for the US, people do not count and there is no way to call it a democracy, and with the rapid decline of quality of life, with no answers or even voices of reason seeking to reverse the 35-year decline for 3/4 of the population.  Much of the world is greatly improving and about 100 countries have a superior quality of life and economic mobility over the US now, which used to be #1 40 years ago.  If  Americans traveled more, they would see that the "world" is not falling apart, they are. I return every few years for a few weeks and each time get more depressed by the division, fear, anger and hostility.  No place I have been has been so badly misinformed by their media and governments. Almost nothing believed by Americans about other countries and people is true. The US population is subjected to the most propaganda, most intense, most dishonest and most self-serving of any place I have ever been. 
All that will change soon.  The rise of formerly poor countries which have banded together to form the largest economic and trading alliance in history is forming now and already represent over 1/2 the world population, with 3/4rd of the world pledged to join, that does not use the US dollar for trade settlement is the only existential threat there is to the US and EU. It gets no mention in western press, but that is the whole reason for the uptick in aggression against countries which are elements of it, including all the middle eastern countries we have invaded in recent decades, none of which were a threat to the US. It is not radical Islam, or Russia or any of the dozen other favorite nonsense targets. Belt Road Initiative or New Silk Road is changing the entire world economy yet is no even talked about in the US. China has advanced in so many areas to overtake the US in such a short period while we decline. Those with enough money for foreign vacations has changed the whole travel industry shifting it from west to east. The middle class in China is much larger than that of the US now and PPP is higher...in just 15 years has shown the world that the western Zero-Sum thinking is obsolete.
Despite the most sanctions ever put on another country(by definition, an act of war), Russia has a higher median family net worth than the US, and much higher quality of life for average citizens. One would not know that from western press and officials, however.  500,000 people who only knew the propaganda visited to the World Cup this last couple weeks and it shocked most of them, how much their press and governments had been lying to them.  It is not about that one country but every targetted country and every vilified leader.  By living on myths about the world, how on earth would anyone expect appropriate decisions or policies to be made? 
This aggression is what is driving  the migration. Migration is a western created problem and the west can stop it just by changing its aggressive policies and leave those countries alone.

 

[DaveP]

You are welcome to post here like anyone else.

You seem to make little or no reference to the activities of IS, Al Shabaab and Boko Harum or any other of the insurgents groups trying to carve out their own little caliphates in Africa.  Does 200 chibok girls ring a bell?

The logic which appears to have escaped you, is that it is easier to eliminate small groups of terrorists, than wait until they take over an entire country like Mali, that is why Macron is spending time and effort there and the US the same.

You will find many here who will like your post, but for me personally, unbalanced argument = Bias= low credibility.

DaveP

 

[bluebird]

Yeah... but what if he's even 75% right? Still an eye opening post. I'm not going to pretend like I'm immune to propaganda. I like to think I'm smarter than most,  but I know deep down... I'm not

 

[Tubetec]

I agree with almost all of what Stan said ,we(the west) are making trouble for ourselves.
While I agree with Dave the politicians really dont or wont talk much about population control ,that there is people up beyond government and countries already figuring out ways to cull populations Im certain there is , enough rope to hang ourselves is the phrase that springs to mind .If theres going to have to be a cull ,why not maximise profit off it ,Gradually allowing noxious chemicals into the food chain would be a good way ,and thats already happeneing . Mash our brains with technology ,that will certainly reduce the life expectancy, Over use of medications ,thats happening too ,Sugar addiction we have that ,Obiesity thats going to have a huge impact in the future and all of those things we are willfully allowing to happen,couple all that with falling birth rates in the west . We're in serious trouble the way were going ,we'll simply be replaced in time ,maybe thats precisely the plan . The US population would be dropping only for inward migration ,you seriously think Humpty Trumpty doesnt know that despite his demonisation of people coming from war torn places ?

The other interesting point Stan made was ,its probably only since he's spent time away from the USA that he can actually see it for what it is . I spent time away from my own culture in my teens ,and I had a completely different perspective when I came back . Im sure you can probably connect on that point too Dave ,being an expat .

 

[DaveP]

My hope in resisting propaganda is a free press, most journalists are liberal, almost a prerequisite.  They are all looking for the next Watergate.  On a daily basis I check the BBC, ITV, Sky and France 24.  That way I can circumvent editorial bias as far as possible.

The West have intervened in several wars with a bad result that's true.  The road to hell is paved with good intentions, as they say,  Kosovo, was a possible exception.

Let's consider the alternative strategy followed by Russia.  They follow Real Politik,  It doesn't matter to them whether the guy in charge is good or bad, just as long as he can keep order, Assad is a prime example.  There is a kind of brutal logic in this.  You start from the assumption that lots of people are going to die one way or the other in a more or less random way.  So support the guy with the best chance of winning.  There were so many hostile factions against him, that were never going to agree among themselves afterwards, so better to support the tyrant.

Whether a liberal West could live with a policy like that is an open question, it smacks of non-interventionist fortress America.

The problems in Africa have many causes, endemic corruption in their culture probably being the largest cause of unrest.  When I was in the Congo in the mid 70's, the government  always placed government officials in distant areas where their relatives and own tribal members could not access them to demand special treatment.  This kind of family/tribal obligation is difficult to comprehend in western societies, because we have not been tribal since the time of the Celts, Saxons, Jutes Danes etc.

Over population is a big problem in South Africa where young unemployed men turn to crime, post Mandela.

Nigeria has oil but does not share the profits with the area that it comes from, they just get the pollution.  Nigerian armed forces are not up to the job of eliminating Boko Harum by themselves; they are very vulnerable to Islamic terrorism.  Mali has the same problem minus the oil, so does Somalia.  You could liken Islamic terrorism to a virus and western special forces to T Cells, I guess.

People like Stan who travel a lot, are especially vulnerable to these groups, if he wants to keep his head on his shoulders he should avoid these areas like the plague, Americans are a prime target to these guys.

I was in the Congo during the worlds's first  Ebola outbreak there, Not much you can do about their love of bush-meat  eating virus carrying bats should be a no-no to every African but there are always some who ignore the rules.  This is how nature sorts out the population problem in a way very unforgiving of mistakes.

A sign of hope is the recent peace agreement between Ethiopia and Eritrea.

Libya has a UN backed government and a rival strong man, I doubt the UN will put boots on the ground to save the government, so the next chapter will be a new Gaddafi type leader in due course.  In western societies that have been democratic for 200 years, it is difficult to understand that this model does not translate well to tribal societies, liberals are mystified, but the Russians seem to get it better than we do, and how we despise them for it.

The Who got the message way back, "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss",  Let's hope, we don't get fooled again!

My personal feeling is that climate change is happening much quicker than anticipated and will overtake events on a scale  hitherto unimaginable, whole areas of the world will become uninhabitable because of the heat, there will famine and mass migration as a result.  I may live to see some of this happen, but I really feel for my kids and especially my grandchildren, they will have to live through the population maximum, so God help them.

DaveP

 

[Tubetec]

I just spent a little time reviewing previous posts in this topic , I do see a tendency to overintellectualise ,and while I salute the efforts people are making with their writings ,Im not sure if it only ends up making the info contained within less accessible.

One news item up for grabs this morning is the case taken against J&J ,it seems 20 or so women in the US have sued 'the family company' for adulterating talc powder with asbestos ,which has been linked with cervical cancer.

In relation to the catholic churches prohibition on birth control ,theres another side to this some of you may not realise, The vatican for a period of time late last century actually invested its cash in condom production , during this time a substance known as 'nonoxynol 9' was part of the formulation ,the original  idea for including this industrial detergent was as a  spermicide. Over time ,studies were done on the effectiveness mainly in Africa , what was found was that this 'nonoxy' was damaging the 'mucus membranes' of prostitutes who used them ,and actually leaving them more vulnerable to HIV infection in the longer term .
So maybe there is afterall some truth to the message the catholic church send out in Africa that 'Condoms dont stop you from getting Aids' , seems like they knew more than they were saying in any case though.

I venture the cull is well underway already Dave but you choose not to see it, of course it not a Nazi like final solution ,its more subtle ,like good and bad personal choices we have to make ,what we eat,who or how many people we have sex with ,what medicines/drugs we take. Way back before science it was known that promiscuity was rewarded  with a shorter life ,many religions asserted it was gods way of paying us back for being bad , we have proof now that the system itself is putting us in harms way by neglegence or design ,choose wisely .

Just going to grab a coffee before digesting your new post .