Unplanned population growth

[abbey road d enfer]

@Abbey
I don´t think those are two different problems, overpopulation is actually better described as the lack of resources.

We don't steal water from Africa, we don't steal jobs, we steal ore, diamonds, cadmium, cobalt, uranium; in exchange, we provide them with freshwater production equipment, and jobs. I agree, we have also encouraged them to abandon food crops in favor of palm oil production, which is a bad thing.

"resources" Which get mostly used up by a small minority on this planet, that´s what I´m talking about.
Like one american (just for examle) uses up as much resources like an indian village (ballpark), with our consumerism habits Europe and North America are probably the most overpopulated 

I certainly agree with you on this subject, and wish we could do something about it, only if it were to decrease our carbon footprint and stem the Plastic Tide issue, but this will not better significantly the situation of migrants. The answer for them is in Africa: get rid of corruption and dictators, get rid of ulemas, reject the chariah, make women an important part of civil life, stop burdening them with dozens of pregnancies.

Of course that´s a bit polemic. While I did not say humans are pigs, I do think they are opportunistic monkeys (with illusions of grandeur), and like any animal population will grow to the possible max. And then die.

Hence my analogy with cancer...

There´s no organisation, entity or structure (short of a plague) powerful enough to enforce slowing of growth and I´m not sure I want one to be there...

If you mean demographic growth, Europe has achieved that in a rather painless way; once people are allowed to think by themselves, they realize how stupid it is to try and proliferate like rabbits...
Now, if you mean economic growth, that is a much tougher issue, since it is motivated by greed, the most powerful motivating force, stronger than love, stronger than sex, even stronger than self-preservation; as we say in France, greed makes one saw off the branch he is sitting on...

 

[JohnRoberts]

It is an old idiom: https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/you+can+lead+a+horse+to+water%2C+but+you+can%27t+make+it+drink

I don't believe all of these problems exist because of economic disadvantage, although I know it is a significant factor. I think there is a lot more to the picture. Customs, cultural beliefs, religious beliefs,  education level, government corruption, etc. These things make a huge difference in how people live, adapt and make choices.

I've stopped hating myself because I was born in North America.

One important factor missing from many under developed regions is rule of law.  You did mention government corruption where there are governments.

Many times simple economic aid can just perpetuate corrupt systems, with only a tiny fraction of that reaching the needy. 

I recall years ago when President Bush, proposed using food aid dollars to buy food from African farmers instead of buying excess grain from US farmers to ship there. This would build up the local African farm economy, instead of undercutting it with free food given to their potential customers.  Of course the US farmers didn't like the plan, so it was limited to a modest fraction of the total.  I never heard it mentioned again.

As usual avoid simple answer to complex problems, while nature has its own ways to deal with overpopulation.

I see rule of law as the more pressing problem than imposing our ideas of what their ideal population should be.  As they get more wealthy they will naturally reduce their family size.  It is hard to increase wealth without property rights and rule of law. Africa has been exploited for centuries so there is plenty of developed nation's guilt to go around.

They are starting to build factories (car, TV, etc) in Africa, not unlike China a decade or two ago, but many regions of Africa are too lawless for industry or even serious commercial farming. This should be a focus, IMO. 

JR

 

[desol]

Absolutely. Their political systems(laws, corruption, religion) are akin to the dark ages(not that Trump is any better).

 

[DaveP]

PS: Dave, IIRC you are GB living in France, you are by definition an immigrant here, can I ask why you choose to leave your country to another

Hi Zam,
I actually considered myself a citizen of the European Union and free to settle within it.  However, Brexit may make me an immigrant. :-\  I love living in France for the countryside, the people and the culture, I can even think in French to the limit of my vocabulary and grammar!  I have written this elsewhere, but the country of my birth no longer exists excepts in pockets of the countryside that I cannot afford to live in.  I find life in France is like going back to that time so I feel at home and a bit like being on permanent holiday, if that makes sense.  Why did I leave the UK?  The pace of life, mobile phones glued to peoples heads, chronic overcrowding, dumbing down of the TV programmes,  thousands of obese people,  people on antidepressants just to cope with it all.  Whole areas of cities are no longer English, they are suburbs of other countries, my own culture has been swamped by many forces and I feel alienated, it is a strange thing to say, but it is better to be in another country than to be in your own and be faced by so much that has gone wrong/changed.  Many Brits in France share the same feeling.

Regarding the Congo:  Everything that L'Andratte said about the Belgians treatment of the Congolese was true.  My problem is that many people of my generation went to Africa to help them develop and we may have done more harm than good.

I was there from 75 to 77, in that time I met a Frenchman choosing to do his national service as an aid worker rather than a soldier, unfortunately he took the services of Kinshasa prostitutes and caught the clap.  I also met Americans in the Peace Corp doing development work.  I modernised some hospital facilities and built a doctors house.  Our generation tended to do VSO (voluntary service overseas) rather than go backpacking to Thailand or Australia.  I think we hate the idea that the people who are alive now because of our health development work, have grandchildren who may have died trying to get to Europe because there is no work for them to do.  It kind of makes it all pointless.

DaveP

 

[L´Andratté]

As usual avoid simple answer to complex problems, while nature has its own ways to deal with overpopulation.

+1
Some naiv people think it´s about saving the nature, the planet earth, but nature doesn´t care if earth is just a devastated rock, it just waits a couple of million years and starts anew. It´s saving ourselves, our children, of course.
The first part of the quote just needs to be tattooed on everybody´s face

Thanks everybody for their words, like a differential amp, maybe the truth is somewhere in the difference of the opinions?
So much to say, but hosted a notorious gang of 3 and 4 years olds and their parents (even worse), so I´m done for today

EDIT: DaveP, I respect you a lot

 

[zamproject]

Hi Zam,
I actually considered myself a citizen of the European Union and free to settle within it.  However, Brexit may make me an immigrant. :-\  I love living in France for the countryside, the people and the culture, I can even think in French to the limit of my vocabulary and grammar!  I have written this elsewhere, but the country of my birth no longer exists excepts in pockets of the countryside that I cannot afford to live in.  I find life in France is like going back to that time so I feel at home and a bit like being on permanent holiday, if that makes sense.  Why did I leave the UK?  The pace of life, mobile phones glued to peoples heads, chronic overcrowding, dumbing down of the TV programmes,  thousands of obese people,  people on antidepressants just to cope with it all.  Whole areas of cities are no longer English, they are suburbs of other countries, my own culture has been swamped by many forces and I feel alienated, it is a strange thing to say, but it is better to be in another country than to be in your own and be faced by so much that has gone wrong/changed.  Many Brits in France share the same feeling.

Hi Dave

Thanks for this share.

Cheers !
Zam

 

[desol]

Hi Zam,
Why did I leave the UK?  The pace of life, mobile phones glued to peoples heads, chronic overcrowding, dumbing down of the TV programmes,  thousands of obese people,  people on antidepressants just to cope with it all.  Whole areas of cities are no longer English, they are suburbs of other countries, my own culture has been swamped by many forces and I feel alienated, it is a strange thing to say, but it is better to be in another country than to be in your own and be faced by so much that has gone wrong/changed.  Many Brits in France share the same feeling.

Most of this I agree with, because it's exactly the same in Canada. However, the suburb thing I don't. Diversity is good for a stagnant, boring, british colony such as Canada imo(middle eastern women are beautiful)...as long as immigrants realize that they are now LIVING IN CANADA, and have to abide by it's rules/laws. And by the way, it's laws don't care what you believe.

If you don't like that, it's over the border and home you go.

ps- Off topic.

 

[DaveP]

Most of this I agree with, because it's exactly the same in Canada

That's interesting.

Britain doesn't have that many middle eastern communities (I agree about the women ).  South Asian and Muslim communities seem to have more problems integrating because of their attitudes towards women.  Basically they are kept out of sight as private property in my opinion, this is part of their culture.  As a feminist who finds women's inequality a big stumbling block, I cannot accept this culture.  I cannot abide forced marriages, acid disfigurement and the abuse of white girls in care that we have to put up with nowadays from other cultures, I'm well out of it.

DaveP

 

[boji]

I think that many Europeans really want to stop the exploitation of Africa in favor of more balanced and equitable exchanges.

Other than farming, would you mind providing some examples?

we steal ore, diamonds, cadmium, cobalt, uranium; in exchange, we provide them with freshwater production equipment, and jobs.

Right. Government's never Edit: rarely if ever, behave altruistically where borders are concerned, except in the case of wartime allies or refugees. Of paramount interest is the exploitation of natural resources (I drink your milkshake), but if in that cash grab it can be spun as 'help', it will most certainly will be. And sadly that's the narrative we cling to most as citizens of the 1st world.
The book 'Confessions of an Economic Hitman' was eye opening to me. How truthful the autobiographical parts of his stories are, I can't say.

nature has its own ways to deal with overpopulation.

Possibly the most horrific of understatements imaginable, short of WWIII in the coming decades.

 

[desol]

Possibly the most horrific of understatements imaginable, short of WWIII in the coming decades.

I think you may be taking it way too personally.

It doesn't mean that ultimately it isn't or can't be true. The idea isn't an emotional one.

Off topic.

 

[boji]

I think you may be taking it way too personally.

Not at all. I'm saying it's a sad artifact of the human brain that grievance does not scale with numbers of dead.  In fact, it tends to be inversely proportional.

 

[desol]

Yes, but in order to avoid being affected personally by all of it(and to find truth), it's good to remain emotionally detached from 'observation'...instead of  being instantly insulted by a statement.

I don't think this discipline is meant to offend. Observation can seem heartless.

Off topic.

 

[boji]

instantly insulted

I'm not insulted, nor emotionally charged.  I'm talking about human behavior, and why we permit what we permit.  There is a moral landscape that defines human behavior on the macro scale and I'm merely pointing out a valley.

Edit: btw I've plagiarized that turn of phrase, 'The Moral Landscape'.  If I did not fear triggering some, I'd cite the source. :-*

 

[desol]

Yes, but morality is subjective. Observation is objective. Objectivity is the search for truth.

If nature normally reacts to something in a normal way(ie: let's say, too many greenhouse gases kills everyone), how is that morally wrong? And how is it wrong to point it out?

Off topic.

 

[boji]

Yes, but morality is subjective

Ok now we are off topic.

If all morality was a subjective affair then genetic expression (phenotypes) would be as well. They aren't. Fitness doesn't care about your feelings, but feelings do care about your survival, irrespective of the 'you' that thinks them.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

Other than farming, would you mind providing some examples?

There is a number of "ethic" businesses that establish a true partnership with their suppliers, as an alternative to the usual model based on the balance of power; they advertise their business model, which attracts them a number of customers. True, the majority is food business, but there is a growing number of manufactured products, bags, clothes, utensils...

 

[desol]

Ok now we are off topic.

If all morality was a subjective affair then genetic expression (phenotypes) would be as well. They aren't. Fitness doesn't care about your feelings, but feelings do care about your survival, irrespective of the 'you' that thinks them.

The whole thing has been off topic for me. WW3..people being mean about what they're saying.  :

Genetic expressions are locked in(maybe not entirely). Political viewpoints change day to day, and nature doesn't care(as far as we know, yet).

 

[abbey road d enfer]

Ok now we are off topic.

If all morality was a subjective affair then genetic expression (phenotypes) would be as well. They aren't. Fitness doesn't care about your feelings, but feelings do care about your survival, irrespective of the 'you' that thinks them.

Morality is not morals

 

[JohnRoberts]

So my initial reluctance to post in this thread was correct.  :

JR

 

[boji]

So my initial reluctance to post in this thread was correct.  :

My bad JR.  I get a little abstract at times. Why the junk I say gets interpreted as an indictment of others' first principles still confounds me.

Edit:

people being mean about what they're saying

Nothing but love over here, brother. Well, that and a nagging sense that any idea that sticks in anyone's head long enough eventually gets taken for granted.  ;D