Vinyl Lovers? Advice?

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I have fond memories of just "listening" to LPs, laying on the couch and staring and studying every detail of the LP jacket and all the inserts that came with it. 

It was ACTIVE listening, enjoying every nuance of it.... Not like kids nowadays that have their MP3 players on 24/7 just blasting as "background music".

As I said in the 2nd post... get a Technics. They're very good. :)
 
I use the Technics 1200 at the radio station. It's okay, but I prefer the sound of my belt-drive table at home. It's an Acoustic Research -- not the one from the early 1960s, but one of the reissue series from the 1980s, which had decent tone arms. They seem to have been more popular in Europe than here. Don't know about S.A..

I have a Shure V15VMR in it, which sounds very neutral. Sad to say, they won't work with Grados, as the motor radiates a lot of hum and Grado doesn't believe in shielding.

You can make a very decent stereo phono preamp with an NE5532 per channel and a passive EQ network between the two opamps.

Peace,
Paul
 
pstamler said:
You can make a very decent stereo phono preamp with an NE5532 per channel and a passive EQ network between the two opamps.

I did exactly that about ten years ago when I built a phono preamp for my Dad, for use in transferring his old vinyl to digital format. He loved it.
 
In the Christmas spirit I won't pepper another thread with my rants about phono preamp theory, I had a serious phono preamp fixation for many years...

Another poster talked about their "first" vinyl system...

My first system is right at home in this DIY forum.  The turntable was actually made from some sub system components I bought from Lafayette radio. The turntable was literally a motor and platter that I had to mount to a piece of plywood after I cut out the odd shaped hole... Then drill a hole to mount the tone arm, also purchased from Lafayette. As I recall the tone arm had a crystal (?) pickup that I fed directly into a small 4 tube stereo amplifier (also Lafayette IIRC). I recall how cool it was to look at the changing patterns of glow coming from the tubes as they played music. I completed the audio chain with a pair of 10" full range speakers (with miniscule magnets) mounted into their cardboard shipping boxes to make crude baffles.

As crude as this system was, I was able to make real stereo back when it was new and pretty rare.  Luckily this stuff is long gone so I don't have to revisit how crappy it surely must sound by today's standards... This is one case where older is not better.

As I recall the tube amp was a Christmas gift from mom...RIP

Merry Christmas all...

JR
 
pstamler said:
I use the Technics 1200 at the radio station. It's okay, but I prefer the sound of my belt-drive table at home. It's an Acoustic Research -- not the one from the early 1960s, but one of the reissue series from the 1980s, which had decent tone arms. They seem to have been more popular in Europe than here. Don't know about S.A..

I have a Shure V15VMR in it, which sounds very neutral. Sad to say, they won't work with Grados, as the motor radiates a lot of hum and Grado doesn't believe in shielding.

You can make a very decent stereo phono preamp with an NE5532 per channel and a passive EQ network between the two opamps.

Peace,
Paul

I miss the V15 series a lot.  The dynamic stabilizer helped them to track absurdly warped records and tended as well to electrically neutralize the surfaces.  Very accurate sound if it was there to be retrieved from the vinyl, plenty of output signal.  Many times people over for a quick listen thought I was playing a CD.  They never got much respect from the tweako community.

The effect of electrical forces associated with vinyl is IMO a neglected area for study and improvement.  Besides just what is on the record, I had an object lesson in how they can affect other thngs recently.

The Heybrook table I have been using for a while now has the typical plastic cover lid.  I cleaned it once of dust on the top.

It had such a static charge that it lifted the SME tonearm off the playing record when I lowered the lid!  As Anna Russell used to say, I am not making this up!

Brad
 
I had a local friend ask me for a RIAA preamp in a 500 series rack.

I've been kicking the idea around with some additional options like balanced outputs, VU meter and possibly a few other options.

 
Anyone ever use one of these suckers?
http://www.amazon.com/Audio-Technica-AT-PL120-Professional-Direct-Drive-Turntable/dp/B00012EYNG

Just received it as a gift.  Debating as to whether I should return it and get something different or stick with it....Opinions?
I was looking for a 78rpm player....
:-\
 
> rants about phono preamp

Note that -most- turntables sold today -have- phono preamp built-in. Which is how it should always have been, since transistors replaced 12AX7s. I dunno what kind of preamp; I do know that most $50 standalone preamps are worse than they need to be. The built-in preamps are generally bypassable.

The "feature option" is now the USB output.

If you -just- want quick easy cheap LP-USB transfer, the iON portable turntable sounds remarkably good for $90. Much better than the 1960s portable plastic players it is based on (no thumpy rubber-wheel). Be sure you can exchange it: their quality control is slapdash.

> whether I should return it

The average turntable of today is SO much better than most of the drek we used when vinyl was in fashion. You have to go a lot lower than $200 to get a bad TT.

I don't know that specific model, but I never saw an A-T product that didn't do well for its price.

> I was looking for a 78rpm player....

78s are a very specialized chore, IF you demand best-possible reproduction. The microgroove needle falls to the bottom of a consumer 78, where groove cut is hit/miss and often packed with dirt. Interestingly Amazon suggests "Frequently Bought Together" with the "Shure M78S Wide Groove Monophonic Cartridge", specifically made to play 78s. While you missed the Bought-Together savings, at $25 the cart is worth getting.

78 equalization is a whole other subject. With broad variation across decades and continents. A "proper" 78 preamp is covered with knobs and has a booklet of known settings. There is also PC software to take a flat or RIAA output and re-bend it to give several 78 type responses.

I have played worn 78s on 33/45RPM microgroove. For some reason I rigged a 104Hz 105V AC supply on a 45RPM platter rather than play at 45 and re-speed in software. My preamp had an "LP" setting, Columbia's pre-EIA/RIAA EQ, which I knew was very-close for a late Columbia 78. I bumped the deep bass with sofware EQ, and treble "EQ" had to be entirely to-taste because the surface noise was atrocious. (Apparently these disks had been abused by a generation of children.)
 
Thanks PRR!

As usual you are the man!

Right now I'm not demanding the highest quality playback of the 78rpm discs..though I am going to buy the 78 specific needle as I inherited a bunch of OOOOOOLD 78's from my late great-aunt Hilda.  I'm interested in giving them a spin but am not so interested in damaging them. Cleaning the discs is the first priority... I also need to nab the Shure tracking force gauge..

Thanks again.
Hope everyone's Holiday is going well!

-J
 
When cleaning the 78s, don't use any solution containing alcohol, which rules out most commercial record-cleaning solutions. Discwasher D4 is safe, as it ought to be, considering it's pretty close to distilled water with a little bit of Kodak Photo-Flo added.

Which means, of course, that you can DIY. A jug of distilled water and a bottle of Photo-Flo should last you for about a million years of record cleaning.

Peace,
Paul
 
When I was a kid my buddy's father had a record cleaning machine-the type you'd stick a record in sideways and watch it spin.  Great fun! (I reckon it was the only type of cleaning I found fun at that age...other than the car wash!  ;D)
 
Something that I had customers doing as far back as the '80s was performing some of the non linear noise reduction processing to vinyl before applying all of the RIAA playback EQ. There is some 40 dB roll-off between 20 Hz and 20 kHz so that is maybe too much to apply after the fact, but the 75 uSec RIAA time constant is a real pole at around 2 kHz, performed post processing, would give tick and scratch removers a less smeared signal to operate on, then after they are finished, applying a real pole at 75 uSec would further attenuate residuals of clicky artifacts.

It was not uncommon to use pre-de emphasis to extend dynamic range, and I vaguely recall some digital CODECs with a de-emphasis setting, but I doubt that lines up with 75 uSec.. A simple LPF in the digital domain shouldn't be heavy lifting.

Another benefit from processing old vinyl digitally is perhaps tracking the recording at other than real speed. Since 78rpm turntables are probably scarce, tracking and 33 1/3 and then later converting for correct presentation is perhaps a useful modification to also make in the digital domain.

I have kept my nasty old vinyl around for eventual conversion to digital, but admit I may never get around to it... Just for jollies I googled one of my more obscure discs and found a MP3 so this may just be another black hole for time... perhaps something better left to true vinyl lovers, not mere vinyl likers like me.

JR

PS: Yup old 78's are all over the place for EQ, and there were even a few obscure 33 1/3 standards.. (CX, CD4, etc.)  have fun.
 
> before applying all of the RIAA playback EQ

Same thing. You know but I'll mention: most of the slant in the RIAA curve is not to make the RIAA happy, it is because the dynamic needle integrates EDIT differentiates groove position and causes a 6dB/oct rise. You can take it or leave it; you can convert one to the other trivially. Yes, in the 1980s it could have been much simpler hardware to do some processing before the integration.

I submit though, that for running through Grandma's stash, he will be fine with any 78 table, a blunt needle, an RIAA preamp, and a TREBLE knob. There's real treble on many 78s, but surface noise can be offensive to modern ears (specially on modern tweeters).

A steep 6KC/3KC low-pass is handy to cut the noise while leaving some music. 6KC cut is utterly defensible because few players of the time even got that far. Some late 78s have >6KHZ in the groove, but it may have never been heard by artist/producer, so its "authenticity" is debatable. If it sounds good, do it; if it sounds bad you should remove it.

> old 78's are all over the place for EQ

True but... whatever graphs the Tech Dept put out, the music in the groove was always made to sound terrific on the players of the day. While in theory a company which sold records and players could optimize one for the other, they could not let their records or players sound like junk when used with competing players or records. So producers pushed the band around to get a tonal balance which worked in the end.

And players never had "EQ knobs", and the tone control was not intended to correct minor EQ errors. In a given era(*), an "average" EQ will give pleasing reproduction.

(*)There are significant differences in practice between early acoustic recording and late electric recording, but acoustic and electric players were both used for considerable time so change was gradual, mostly in extension of bass/treble control beyond what you got from a mica diaphragm in a morning-glory horn.
 
Y'all would be surprised what's on some 78s, especially acoustical ones. I've been working on remastering a bunch of recordings of Irish music by some of the great masters of the early 20th century, all acoustically recorded, and for the first time I'm playing back with flat EQ in the preamp, which is proper for these discs. There's a lot of signal up there; I'm seeing musical signal as high as 8kHz and occasionally a bit more.

The problem, of course, is that there's also a whole lot more noise, both scratches and hiss from the abrasives in the shellac mixture. Walking the tightrope between cutting the noise down to acceptable levels and not losing any of that lovely little detail that happens when the piper twiddles his finger...that's very tricky. These discs are taking way longer than any 78 restoration project in my experience. Worth it, though.

Peace,
Paul
 
Now I know why my Spike Jones 78's sound better than the re-mastered CD.
CHLOE!
Mike
PS: for 78 playback, it pays to cruise the hood the day before trash day, especially now.  There should be a BSR or 2 put out, finally replaced by a 7.7 mini system.  I also check the local Salvation Army if someone needs a turntable.  The 78 needles are still available for the older TT's.
PPS: has anyone else re-sequenced their double LP CD re-masters to mimic the "lost afternoon"?  Y'know, when you could stack 6 six on an auto turntable and let it play?  Electric Ladyland, Physical Graffiti, Seconds Out etc. sequenced in sides A C B D?  Ladyland is the best for that! 
 
sodderboy said:
Now I know why my Spike Jones 78's sound better than the re-mastered CD.
CHLOE!
Mike
PS: for 78 playback, it pays to cruise the hood the day before trash day, especially now.  There should be a BSR or 2 put out, finally replaced by a 7.7 mini system.  I also check the local Salvation Army if someone needs a turntable.  The 78 needles are still available for the older TT's.
PPS: has anyone else re-sequenced their double LP CD re-masters to mimic the "lost afternoon"?  Y'know, when you could stack 6 six on an auto turntable and let it play?  Electric Ladyland, Physical Graffiti, Seconds Out etc. sequenced in sides A C B D?  Ladyland is the best for that!   

Yours is a truly sick mind  ;D

I still stifle a giggle when I find vinyl sets with the "changer sequence".
 
Your speaker is not a turntable stand.
Wood floors are passive subwoofers.
Thank God I live on concrete.

I have about 400 LP's and a VPI turntable that I rarely put to use.
But when I do......oh yea.


=FB=
 
Hi,

I think this should do the trick for the raia preamp. I was thinking of building it myself.
You can even buy the pcb from esp.

p06-f1.gif


http://sound.westhost.com/project06.htm

have fun with vinyl!

 
nhaudio said:
Hi,

I think this should do the trick for the raia preamp. I was thinking of building it myself.
You can even buy the pcb from esp.

p06-f1.gif


http://sound.westhost.com/project06.htm

have fun with vinyl!

Not to be disparaging of other's work, I see several things I don't care for in that design.

#1 R2L serves no useful function that I can discern, and if anything adds thermal noise from the 2.2k resistor. While it is probably below the 3 uV of input noise in a TL07x

#2 Use high quality cap (low ESL)  for C2 and C3.  Since output is cap coupled you might DC couple gain stages with perhaps cap coupling between first and second stage.

#3 Passive pole in output stage will interact and pole frequency will actually change with following stage input impedance.
======

This design looks vaguely familiar with several split gain/passive pole EQ designs that were popular a few decades ago, but most of them wisely put the passive pole between opamp gain stages. That way the second gain stage isolates the passive EQ stage from output loading.

I am assuming the EQ is correct for RIAA I didn't check the math.

So if inclined to use this design as a starting point, I would DC couple the gain stages. Mover the entire output network ( R8,C4,C5 and R9) to between the two opamps. Place another C5,R9 output HPF to block DC. C5 may need to be larger and high quality. There are also lower noise opamps available today with FET input characteristics.

Other than that it's fine...  :eek:

JR

 

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