What the **** is this ?

[Infernal_Death]

Sahib, yes i understand.
The points of thinking i made are merely a general statement about projects. It wasn't aimed at clone projects.
The last "point" is a bit drastic, i understand. It was more aimed to people like analag who design their own stuff.
Let me make clear, i hope that no projects will disappear or never even appear because of this whole incident. I just guess that it makes some people here think about those things.

Maybe it didn't came out quite like i wanted but i also think the main point here is that one of the regulars who participates much on the forum betrayed the trust he got. That's why i also think that people here should do some thinking about how/if they want to support such people in the future.

Flo

 

[lofi]

Volker, fully understand and appreciate your clarification. its the manufacture and sale of these that has peeved me tbh. Some (not all) manufactures will turn a blind eye to most of what happens here, but when a product appears to a casual observer to be from them then its no go. to be honest I cant believe Purple didn't complain about the colour yet alone the naming.

seems that we have to be careful whom we do business with.

as for the glitterati, gives me something to aspire to ;D

 

[bernbrue]

Well, quite a lot of opinions were stated here. I would like to state a few things in a kind of wishlist adressed to Purusha:

1. Stop selling pcbs. You´ve neither made a design on your own nor can you provide any technical support.
2. Stop "stealing" pcbs from other people
3. Stop bundling other people´s pcbs with your cases
4. Stop selling "look alike" frontpanels with original logos and brandnames
5. Stop interfering/disturbing exciting design discussions in the "Drawing board" with nasty frontpanel design questions
6. Stop selling complete units for shameless prices
7. Do a web shop for your case business and offer your service in a single thread with a link to your web shop in BM.
8. Delete any pcb relevant files from your server.

Moderators, please ask him to follow these suggestions/requests and keep an eye on him. It might be good to have another area besides BM. Name it "shops" or "supplier" or whatever.
regards
Bernd

 

[SSLtech]

Hi all,

I'm inclined to think in line with Analag's post: -What is the conclusion? -And what does anyone do?

It may not always be the deed so much as the motivation which defines the 'crime'. -For example, the 'Quad-Eight' racking story: If someone puts 'Quad Eight' on a box in his studio, and by doing so wishes to deceive people into thinking that he has purchased a sanctioned or authentic product, then that's definitely wrong. -If however, he is such an advocate of the legitimate company that he wishes to PROMOTE that company's brand and product image by proudly adorning their housing with their logo -with no pretense otherwise- then that too is also absolutely okay.

So -to my way of thinking- it's impossible to condone any censure or punishment of Tat/Purusha on these grounds without first being certain of intentions.

The very introduction of the 'Black Market' was debated and informally 'voted' upon, at the time when the idea first came up. -It was decided that it would be a good idea to allow people to help each other out, specially since some forum members have advantages which others do not. -These 'advantages' might include location (being in a country or city where certain things -unavailable in other locations- are easily sourced), outright skill, or access to a service. -Gustav's circuit board services are an excellent example of the latter.

Making money per se was never frowned upon... -but misrepresentation ALWAYS was. -In one or two threads, I've expressed concern directly to Tat about exactly that: -specifically regarding both Purple audio and Universal Audio trademark replicas.

Out of full disclosure I will state that I am in a "grey area" in terms of 'moral debate' about something here. -I designed the 'turbo' upgrade for the GSSL, which very specifically makes a 'modified' design behave exactly like the commercially-sold device from which it was developed... Essentially making a "non-clone" into a 100% "clone" in terms of behaviour. -It grew out of the "ultimate" version which welded two GSSL's together to achieve a similar result, and -when people began to express how complicated it was getting two of them to work together, I came up with a simpler version so that people could get the same result rather more easily.

Now Expat Audio have sold quite a few of them, and yes, they sell for a little more than they cost to make. -However, there's a certain 'hassle-factor' in shipping two or three of them out each week, with the majority going to overseas destinations and therefore requiring trips to the post office to weigh, fill out shipping/customs  declarations etc... -Nobody's getting rich, and nobody's getting ripped off... -But it puts me in a position where -for full and open disclosure- I feel that I should remind people that I sell a produce here for more  -albeit only slightly more- than it costs to make... and that I come uncomfortably close to the 'cloning' debate also. -If others feel that my input to this discussion is therefore tainted or otherwise in ANY way hypocritical or invalid, I shall respectfully bow out.

Trademarked cases for 'clone' product however, are difficult to defend in terms of legitimacy, but -none the less- Most of us DO live in countries where anyone accused of any wrongdoing is entitled to argue their defense before an impartial group. -That may not quite be what we have here.

Now, -can someone tell me what is referred to by "hidden stuff" or "closed door" forum? -I think I missed something.

Thanks,
Keith

 

[Ptownkid]

Well said Keith.

The hidden and secret stuff refers to another message forum that has been set up for a privileged few and is not open to the public. While I think this is perfectly acceptable and have no qualms about it's existence whatsoever, I think it's a little insulting that fodder from a place that we are not welcome to visit has been tossed into this equation.

We're still not allowed to visit, but it's no longer "secret".

To those that are part of this secret society, please understand that I mean no ill will, it's just that it's hard to comment on something you can't see...

 

[lofi]

I think thats why this hasnt gone quite as smooth as some would have hoped. accusations have flown, but the defense is out of town to answer. comments above ethics and morals cant be made as full disclosure hasn't been either. the fact that some of the items discussed there are of current production equipment makes the moral debate rather hazzed.

BUT, its a matter of trust, to be privy to such talks and use the knowledge to self serve .....

As Wade put in the TG thread, he pays royalties.

Still cant buy into why somebody would want to clone an exact face plate except to deceive.

Iain

 

[[silent:arts]]

... Now, -can someone tell me what is referred to by "hidden stuff" or "closed door" forum? -I think I missed something.

...This is all I have to say to some guys here who play the police on this forum. Just to let you know, these same guys are most sick.
At home and behind secret forums they discuss, plan and DIY all kind of BIG NAME gear clones. So much for the sincerity.  :-[ ...

...
this hidden area (which is independent and not afflicted to this forum or prodigy pro)...

... for all this hidden forum stuff:
I don't see the difference if I discuss some designs with a few people via email or in a forum.
don't know how many emails I exchanged with Kubi and bernbrue designing and beta testing the D-AOC PCB.
the same between analag, bernbrue and me with the Poor Man PCB. you can't read them either.

Theres some sort of uber forum where all the glitterati hang

it isn't, and most projects will still develop using emails.

 

[jdbakker]

[...]nobody sold those PCBs to Purusha, he has stolen the PCB files and manufactured them himself.[...]

Just for clarity, but what exactly do you mean by 'stolen' here? Did he have access to the files but used them in violation with their license? Did he hack into someone's machine to get them? Did he reverse-engineer them from posted pictures?

JDB.
[For context: some time ago I stumbled upon the website of a Chinese PCB fab. They had a picture of one of my six-layer PCB designs as an example of their capabilities. However, they had removed my copyright information from the PCB, which violated the license under which the designs were published. While in a wider sense this could be seen as IP theft, the main issue is the license violation]

 

[[silent:arts]]

Just for clarity, but what exactly do you mean by 'stolen' here? Did he have access to the files but used them in violation with their license? Did he hack into someone's machine to get them? Did he reverse-engineer them from posted pictures?

neither. as said before:
he asked the PCB designer for Gerber files to do some PCBs for him and his friends.
he was asked by the PCB designer to not use it for commercial purpose or for resale.
the PCB designer is a friendly guy and mailed him the Gerber files ...
I don't know how much PCBs Purusha made or sold, but regarding the support requests quite a lot.
and regarding to my pm box he at least offered it to quite a lot members from this nice forum here.

btw, this conversation was via email and has nothing to do with those fames hidden places

 

[desol]

Well, i think we should start from the beginning. What is the definition of DIY? Where is this forum heading, and does it represent that? More or less?

I 'think' what should be done, is a regulated Black Market. If there's going to be stores selling things, there should be guidelines on what they can offer within ethical consideration of other, bigger companies, other sellers here and maybe the numbers allowed? And anyone that is found to be unethical should be reprimanded...per say...or banned period.

Like i said, once this place really starts spiralling(downward), and certain companies begin to believe that they are losing considerable numbers to this place AND people ripping off their look....a huge hammer is gonna fall from the sky. I could be right, i could be wrong, but that's the feeling i get(something i'm afraid of for the forum).

Any tom, dick or harry can come here and easily build 15 exact copies of an 1176, etc. Etching services are one thing, ripping off mass numbers of cases and panels is another.

 

[clintrubber]

Let's finish this, we'll all have better things to do than to lose time
on the dark actions of certain people.

Solution by simply re-reading the 'definition' of the Black Market:

The Black Market is a place for forum members to buy/sell/trade personal items.

I don't see the word 'shop' there, so it doesn't fit commercial eager money making imo.
Since various people might still want to buy such things I didn't want to go so far as to etc, but I've removed stickies.

Please report any other threads of which you think these
are too commercial and shouldn't have a sticky.

Things like for instance Gustavs PCB selling might not fit that definition exactly either,
but markup is small and it's not in the 'eager'-category. Call it grey if you like & let's keep having it
in the Black Market. Sticky kept.

If people want to go commercial then try to get a White Market thing going here, but that should be your own initiative.

This doesn't address the 'let's ban' desire that I've noticed (& understand) to live here, but as various people already said,
unfortunately there won't be a perfect solution. I felt it'd be good to have at least some kind of best as possible solution NOW.

Hence the 'stickies-adjusting' & closing this thread. Sorry, but as said, we all have better things to do than this hassle,
let's be done with it for now.

Best regards,

  Peter

 

[clintrubber]

Bump/reminder - not to single out anyone:

Please report any other threads of which you think these
are too commercial and shouldn't have a sticky.