Which Capacitors for Audio?

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The value of the caps tested were selected within 0.1% of each other. I bought 100 pcs of each type and selected. I wasn’t screwing around with this console build.
I'd be more curious to figure out why. Polypropylene film capacitors are generally held in high regard. Did they spec similar DF, ESL, ESR, etc. ?

I recall back when I was still working inside Peavey I approved an engineering change order to substitute a PP film capacitor in a loudspeaker crossover. This was not my engineering area of responsibility but I did it as a favor for a "golden ear" transducer engineer I had worked with several times before. I didn't second guess his judgement for only $0.25. His engineering director would never sign an ECN that resulted in even a $0.25 cost increase. The big boss frowned upon any and all cost increases. :rolleyes:

JR
 
His engineering director would never sign an ECN that resulted in even a $0.25 cost increase. The big boss frowned upon any and all cost increases. :rolleyes:

JR
That's why I completely DIY my audio system. There are sound differences between parts, I've auditioned them, even with cheap and simple tube audio gear.

So why should I purchase equipment, which hasn't been build exactly the way I feel it's the best way and pay my ass off in the same moment for crappy parts. Never ever will this happen again. I look into the big figures audio gear and just see that "big boss" has tried like a penny pincher to cut costs down (normally, the controlling section of a company would do so). As a DIY, I can buy whatever comes to my mind, NOS, the best of new parts or the oldest ones no company can still use as they are decades long out of production.

Every controlling department will become frustrated like hell with my designs, commercially they would fail for sure. But I see in gear for ten thousand dollars that even a better and more expensive tube set would have been too much for the company. What a shame to modern audio and ridiculous what I've spotted in ultra- expensive equipment.
 
There are two capacitors that define each of the four bands. I built it with Wima MKP and FKP originally. It sounded harsh and edgy. I changed them to TDK and it sounded much less harsh and edgy. Then I changed the smaller of the two capacitor values to polystyrene and that was probably the biggest difference. It smoothed it out. Then I got a couple more types of PP to try. One was Illinois Capacitor and the other was Panasonic. I wouldn’t bet I could pick out the last round in a blind test but I changed a couple of the low value caps for other brands. One sounded firmer in the low end. One sounded the smoothest in the midrange. And one sounded softest on the high end. That’s what I was going for. I don’t claim ‘best’. Just what I wanted out of it.
 
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For through hole I prefer Panasonic FR, FM in that order and for SMTs Panasonic FP and FK. When replacing caps on motherboards I find the tall skinny units from Nichicon PM at Mouser, again going for highest ripple current.
 
I remember Panasonic PP sounding nice, but seems they no longer make them anymore, only metalized versions now.
I think I mis spoke. The Cornell Dublier DPFF series look like the Panasonic’s did. I used those in the low end.
 
Polycarbonate oval axials are my go-to in tube mics , 160 or 200 v ,
I see no point in going above that when you only have 60-80v at the anode .
I dont buy into this idea that higher voltage components make any difference to audible distortion at the output , in fact their extra bulk probably creates extra incidental capacitance which might be even less desirable.
 
...Maybe someone will make bigger cog/npo caps, but not soon enough to do me any good.
I wanted to test C0G/NP0 caps on the output of my tube mics. I had only heard wonderful things about them and I'd used them quite successfully for bypass caps, etc. Finally, I ordered three .18mF/200V C0Gs and paralleled them just in front of a Cinemag NiCo output transformer. When I scoped them, I couldn't believe my eyes. They were TERRIBLE! I thought I must have mis-wired the circuit. I swapped in a Auricap of very similar value and all was great. I put the C0Gs back in and there was that horrid looking waveform on my scope. I never bothered to listen to them because they scoped so badly. I can't explain this - and I tried several other types of caps in the same test circuit. But many knowledgeable people say they "don't distort", and praise them very highly. I wish I had taken a picture of the scope. I was in the middle of an extensive output transformer selection test and have many pics of various output transformers. There's plenty of variation between them in the same circuit, but nothing as wildly bad as those C0Gs. Any insights would be much appreciated (the test circuit was my microphone's amplifier being driven by a very clean sine wave at 15,then 20, then 20K CPS. All at 9VAC off the plate of the tube. I also tried the C0Gs at lower levels, but to no avail). My next cap tests will include SMRs. They're not overly expensive, and they're the fastest discharging cap currently known - at least above absolute zero degrees...!
 
I see much "anecdotal evidence" and folk tales. These are not necessary.

I suggest to review Cyril Bateman's Capacitor Sound articles:

https://linearaudio.nl/cyril-batemans-capacitor-sound-articles

John Curl & Dick March (who I both know personally, Dick now lives in Krung Thep Maha Nakhon) also wrote a seminal piece in the 1980's for "Audio":

Reliable Capacitors

Let's not forget this:

https://linearaudio.nl/self-improvement-capacitors

Something non of these article covers is microphonics in capacitors.

For example, "rolled up" film capacitors have much higher levels of microphonics than stacked film. Metalised film capacitors have higher levels of microphonics than foil & film types. This matters a LOT for tube circuits. It can be easily tested with a High Voltage supply, capacitor, 1MOhm resistor and a test Amp to amplify the signal, plus a simple "falling (tiny) hammer" jig to subject the capacitor to repeatable mechanical impulses

I personally tend to use WIMA MKP2 or FKP2 simply because they have cases and resin potted, minimising microphonics, where budgets require commodity parts.

Microphonics also include triboelectric effects, for example Silver & Teflon is a terrible combination for this.

Nichicon Muse and Elna Silmic are generally good choices for low distortion electrolytic capacitors, especially the "green" ES series bipolar Nichicon Muse. Nichicon Muse KZ are best for supply rails. Of course this is if you desire an "uncoloured" sound, at least in my experience.
Monolithic capacitors, like silver mica and class 1 dielectric generally have no perceptible microphonics but values are strictly limited. A "bypass combo" with a Wima MKP2, Wima FKP2 and silver mica can give excellent subjective results, above and beyond a single capacitor.

Personally, I have used a copy of the Kondo "M7 Line" circuit with terminal strips and multi position switches for listening tests of passive parts, including resistors and capacitors (includes power supplies) backed with suitable test gear.

Dielectrics with worse performance than Polypropylene may be used to "flavour" the sound, while they still existed Polycarbonate Capacitors gave a more "colourful" sound than MKP or Polystyrene in solid state amplifiers that tended towards a "bleached out" sound. Mylar also has a certain sound quality, that may be desired or be complementary in a specific context.

Again, doing your own listening tests, level matched and blind is the best way to get an extended handle on "capacitor sound".

Otherwise, simply stick to encased or stacked film capacitors with polypropylene dielectric (e.g. Wima MKP/FKP, Panasonic stacked film SMD), Class 1 dielectric Ceramic Capacitors (e.g. C0G), Silver Mica and high grade, low distortion electrolytic capacitors (Nichicon Muse, Elna Silmic), with bipolar types preferred for signal positions.

For "switching" type power supplies use solid dielectric electrolytics, IME Panasonic (formerly Sanyo) Os-Con are still the yardstick in this category, add X7R SMD ceramic capacitors for the > 1MHz stuff.

All these nowadays come in SMD, THT parts are harder to get but remain available.

To quote one Forrest Gump for my closing:



Thor

'Waking up is unpleasant, you know. You are nice and comfortable in bed. It is irritating to be woken up.
That’s the reason the wise guru will not attempt to wake people up.
I hope I’m going to be wise here and make no attempt whatsoever to wake you up if you are asleep.
It is really none of my business, even though I say to you at times, "Wake up!"
My business is to do my thing, to dance my dance. If you profit from it fine; if you don’t, too bad!
As the Arabs say, "The nature of rain is the same, but it makes thorns grow in the marshes and flowers in the gardens."'

Anthony de Mello (on waking up)
 
I wanted to test C0G/NP0 caps on the output of my tube mics. I had only heard wonderful things about them and I'd used them quite successfully for bypass caps, etc. Finally, I ordered three .18mF/200V C0Gs and paralleled them just in front of a Cinemag NiCo output transformer. When I scoped them, I couldn't believe my eyes. They were TERRIBLE! I thought I must have mis-wired the circuit. I swapped in a Auricap of very similar value and all was great. I put the C0Gs back in and there was that horrid looking waveform on my scope. I never bothered to listen to them because they scoped so badly. I can't explain this - and I tried several other types of caps in the same test circuit. But many knowledgeable people say they "don't distort", and praise them very highly. I wish I had taken a picture of the scope. I was in the middle of an extensive output transformer selection test and have many pics of various output transformers. There's plenty of variation between them in the same circuit, but nothing as wildly bad as those C0Gs. Any insights would be much appreciated (the test circuit was my microphone's amplifier being driven by a very clean sine wave at 15,then 20, then 20K CPS. All at 9VAC off the plate of the tube. I also tried the C0Gs at lower levels, but to no avail). My next cap tests will include SMRs. They're not overly expensive, and they're the fastest discharging cap currently known - at least above absolute zero degrees...!

Be careful about listening with your eyes...

The COG/NPO cap may have been the accurate one, and/or may have revealed some other problem with the circuit. Caveat lector this is just a WAG (wild assed guess) on my part.

JR
 
John Curl & Dick March (who I both know personally, Dick now lives in Krung Thep Maha Nakhon) also wrote a seminal piece in the 1980's for "Audio":
Marsh? I recall some drama about capacitors in the audiophile press, magazines like TAA.

In my judgement they oversold the significance of DA in capacitors. I don't remember which one did that.

JR
 
Be careful about listening with your eyes...

Did you miss what I wrote?

"Again, doing your own listening tests, level matched and blind is the best way to get an extended handle on "capacitor sound"."

The COG/NPO cap may have been the accurate one, and/or may have revealed some other problem with the circuit.

In terms of objective performance, they lack microphonics, any observable distortion, are superbly stable with temperature and usually stop at 100nF/50V (470nF are available, but not cheap).

Subjective listening? Don't ask me, I said my piece, take it, leave it, do I care?

I'm a beach bum, riding a chopper bike with a super cute girlfriend same age as my daughter and live in a 2,000sqft pool villa 5 minutes from the beach.

Life is good. I don't need no aggro. Chill, smoke weed, drink and charge big buck consulting non audio stuff...

Thor
 
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Did you miss what I wrote?

"Again, doing your own listening tests, level matched and blind is the best way to get an extended handle on "capacitor sound"."



In terms of objective performance, they lack microphonics, any observable distortion, are superbly stable with temperature and usually stop at 100nF/50V (470nF are available, but not cheap).

Subjective listening? Don't ask me, I said my piece, take it, leave it, do I care?

I'm a beach bum, riding a chopper bike with a super cute girlfriend same age as my daughter and live in a 2,000sqft pool villa 5 minutes from the beach.

Life is good. I don't need no aggro. Chill, smoke weed, drink and change big buck consulting non audio stuff...

Thor
Dude, he wasn't even replying to you.

Looks like we have another bogus account here. Childish defensiveness, and I'm sure if we give him one more message there will be cursing.
 
I wanted to test C0G/NP0 caps on the output of my tube mics.

Hmm, not a good use, as the values and voltages available are extremely limited.

Finally, I ordered three .18mF/200V C0Gs and paralleled them just in front of a Cinemag NiCo output transformer. When I scoped them, I couldn't believe my eyes. They were TERRIBLE!

You ordered from Mouser? Or another reliable supplier of genuine parts?

I am not even aware of such values/voltages being commercially available.

Did you verify that you got C0G and not Y5U?

Thor

PS, when I was in business in china we had massive problems with fake capacitors (and other parts, they are so good at fakes, despite knowing etc. I still occasionally get fooled).

Often times I'd look at a PCB back from the assembly factory and failing tests and go "these capacitors are fake" with one look.

And sure enough, procurement tried to save a few Bux on a reel of caps and got sold a bill of goods.

"In Mouser we trust, all others must supply full documentation of origin and swear on their holy book AND pass incoming inspection.

We pay for goods after they passed inspection and throw fakes into the garage, not return them!"

Became our motto. Predictably, 90% of suppliers refused these terms. So we know they knowingly peddled fakes.
 
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I 'think' this question is a good fit for this thread. Let me know if it's not. Thanks.

Can anyone shed light on why some people use filter caps with larger voltage ratings for lower frequencies and smaller voltage ratings for higher frequencies?

I'm building a Pultec and I'm noticing this trend in many builds.
 
Can anyone shed light on why some people use filter caps with larger voltage ratings for lower frequencies and smaller voltage ratings for higher frequencies?

I'm building a Pultec and I'm noticing this trend in many builds.

I suspect availability.

A current small scale (expected 10's of units per year) commercial consultancy project of mine needs a range of high quality capacitors.

The smallest values are 100pF - 1,000pF and the best quality available is polystyrene in 50V DC Rating (Xicon 23PS).

Larger values I selected WIMA FKP2 in 63V DC, but I also need some 1uF, these ended up WIMA FKP4 in 400V, simply based on what Mouser stocks and pricing. I'd have liked physically smaller 63V types, but they just don't have availability.

Thor
 
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