Which Capacitors for Audio?

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Is this relevant for the currents in small signal solid state circuitry utilizing IC op amps, say a mixing console?
If you consider mixing consoles from the golden age (70's, 80's, 90's), resistors have never been identified as a recurring source of distortion.
Translating them into SMD certainly requires attention. Although most capacitors have improved since, some resistors, particularly the physically smaller ones may have inferior performance.
In this respect, the Cosmos blog is quite interesting, although it's diluted in all sorts of digressions.
Ivan there produces measurement tools that are at the forefront of low-noise low-distortion technology.
 
But can this be an issue with the usual 0.6w through hole metal film resistors?

Generally speaking, probably not. What film do your "usual" resistors use? I suspect thermal distortion can be excluded, but driving +20dBu into a load voltage coefficients may come into play.

It is simply foolish to assume any component is "perfect", or even "ideal". Be aware of your parts flaws and design accordingly.

Thor
 
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If you consider mixing consoles from the golden age (70's, 80's, 90's), resistors have never been identified as a recurring source of distortion.

Well, with TL07x as "audio grade" Op-Amps that's hardly a surprise. Even the 553x in there are not that great

Modern options like the OPA1678/79 or OPA1661/62/02/12 have much lower distortion and often lower noise, so sources of noise and distortion previously hidden become visible.

Thor
 
Care to enlighten me?
Haha! This is going to be embarrassing. I thought I'd knock up a quick calculation in answer to your question, showing how 1/f noise can ruin a nice low noise op amp giving us ~300nV on a 100k bandwidth. 1/f is easily the most egregious part of the noise curve, often heading for either side of 100nV/rtHz and a couple of hundred nV total is not uncommon. That also seemed to be in line with what we see on those 10 second noise graphs, which are often scaled in uV. Moreover, I had recently noticed how much higher the 1/f corner was on the OPA1604 than on the OPA1612 - around 200Hz vs 20 something on the 1612 - and even had the tabs still open because I thought that had to be significant and needed looking into, though I hadn't yet got round to doing the calculations. But this was going to be straightforward...

Apparently not. We can get those sorts of figures, but not on the same op amp. The 1Hz en on the OPA1604 was a LOT lower than I had thought it was, at just 15nV/rtHz, giving us a measly 41nV if my calculations are correct. Assuming 25Hz for the corner and 8nV, the OPA1612 tots up to just 18.8nV! Both figures are way, way lower than I had envisaged and it's pointless even adding them into the calculation for the total noise. I have to say I'm still quite shocked, even disbelieving, at quite how low they are. I have not looked for other op amps that might better support my (previous) position as it seems that the 1/f noise follows the noise downwards, which is not what I thought happened; I thought the mechanisms were more decoupled than that. The conclusion seems to be that 1/f noise is going to be irrelevant for any significant bandwidth.

Anyway, I still think it's a terrible idea to let in and amplify what is effectively DC, albeit on a 5 second cycle, (and you'll be letting in 20dB more than usual of everything below that too) and have it potentially eat up headroom for no extra meaningful information. Everything down there is crap, from sensor and electronic artefacts, temperature cycles, capacitor leakage to someone just opening the door in the studio. It's essentially moving around your mid-voltage which is inviting unpredictable behaviour in the amplifier and, at the very least, is going to push your speaker drivers out of their most linear region. No doubt someone will tell me I'm wrong here too! :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
 
Anyway, I still think it's a terrible idea to let in and amplify what is effectively DC, albeit on a 5 second cycle, (and you'll be letting in 20dB more than usual of everything below that too) and have it potentially eat up headroom for no extra meaningful information. Everything down there is crap, from sensor and electronic artefacts, temperature cycles, capacitor leakage to someone just opening the door in the studio. It's essentially moving around your mid-voltage which is inviting unpredictable behaviour in the amplifier and, at the very least, is going to push your speaker drivers out of their most linear region. No doubt someone will tell me I'm wrong here too! :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
One thing that was not mentioned is that the 0.2Hz corner frequency is for electrolytic caps. The actual LF corner of the complete circuit should be determined by a single (or maybe two) sections using film caps, tuned at about 2Hz (for -0.5dB @20Hz).
Check post #33.
 
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Is this relevant for the currents in small signal solid state circuitry utilizing IC op amps, say a mixing console?
Yes, I would say so, though the worst offenders are likely to be the pots, depending on how they are implemented. Then again, there are a host of mistakes that can be made with volume controls, like varying the turnover frequency of filters with volume setting. The distortion is analyser measureable for a single "error", coming off the noise floor below a few hundred Hz and then rising. Whether a host of "errors" brings it into soundcard measureability, I don't know. We also have plenty of anecdotal evidence that volume pots sound different so it is audible, though they may well be badly implemented, too. Fortunately, in a mixer, there's extensive use of the summing input so the effect can be cancelled, all other things being equal. Otherwise it's obviously proportional to gain and will get worse with current. So if you're going for low noise with low value resistors, I'd say it's worth taking into consideration. I'm afraid I haven't done all the measurements to give you a more definitive picture but in principle it's there on a standard format unity gain stage. Interestingly, you can actually make things worse with low TCR resistors and I've made this mistake myself. I put a resistor in parallel with the volume pot to change the taper and to avoid noise if the wiper came off the track, in the feedback loop of an inverting configuration, so Lord alone knows what was going on there from a TCR perspective but I wouldn't do it that way again.

Probably the best summary I can give you is that it IS something I think about and I've often speculated that it may be why amplifiers seem to have an optimum volume setting. Though that is just as likey to be a combination of other things, if not more than likely.
 
Yes, I would say so, though the worst offenders are likely to be the pots, depending on how they are implemented.

Wiper resistance is often substantial and nonlinear. The exceptions are wire wound and cermet track controls.

Way, way, way back I made a level control for a Cassette for east germany's radio & TV mixers using 10k 10 turn wire wound potentiometers, law faked quite aggressively.

To make a slider I used parts originally mass produced for radio tuning indicators and a steel rod with the actual riflder on it.

Nowadays I just avoid loading the wiper at all. And yes, this IS part of "Tube Sound".

Thor
 
Long ago, and far, far away, a company called "Multicap" came into the limelight because their caps did sound better than most of the competition. Their single claim as to why they were so so successful (as I recall) was that they used a number of paralleled capacitors to achieve the desired total capacitance, and, as a result, lowered the ESR of the device. Contemporary design has moved beyond this early recognition of the importance of ESR, but such things are, at least in part, related to the many details that determine the overall performance of a given cap in a given location of a given circuit. Theory is good, theory is great, theory is necessary, but empirical evidence is the gold standard. And, because I'm over 70 years of age, I come from a time when we really couldn't explain some of the things that could undeniably be heard. Happy 4th of July to those of you who celebrate it.
 
Is low ESR a recognized performance factor for a coupling capacitor? Many circuits include a resistor in series with the coupling capacitor, it doesn't seem to introduce significant problems.

Good question. A fixed ESR would not seem a problem. But I guess there might be related temp and voltage coefficients. Not that I can recall seeing this specified on a datasheet ?
 
Is low ESR a recognized performance factor for a coupling capacitor?

Based on my own testing, the actual underlying factor for "Multicap" related to electromechanics, not strictly speaking electric factors.

With many things that are commonly brushed off as audiophile nonsense, there are real differences but they are non obvious in casual and dogmatic examination.

Just like thermal tails in solid state circuits and resistors are commonly ignored, so are voltage dependent resistance in resistors, microphonics and parallel error sources in capacitors and so on.

While few of these factors materially affect military electronics for (say) gun laying or a missile homing on a target and industrial control systems also generelly are resistant, audio is in some ways funky.

I remember an RF engineer dumping on audio as trivial. These were analogue audio days.

I asked him how many RF Systems covers three decades of frequency range with 80dB+ dynamic range and are routinely manufactured for commodity pricing. He suddenly looked at me like he had been hit by a 2X4.

The apparent simplicity of audio is an illusion. These days "quality" audio means 10Hz-40kHz (-1dB) with > 110dB DNR/SNR & > 90dB full scale SINAD.

And it's much easier to do than the 20-20 @ 80dB SNR / 60dB SINAD I talked about back then.

I have always enjoyed audio electronics over doing military/industrial type electronics as audio is an art, Millimeter wave radar is tech.

Mind you, I'm also sniper with a Dragunov, not cannon fodder with an AK-47 in the field (kills? maybe, we did not do post action ground reviews, but rather counted ourselves lucky to be to get the funk out, so that is what we did as rapidly as possible.

Anyway, similar relationship. Long distance taking out enemy muzzle flashes (that cannot reach you) is an art.

Shooting an AK at the same muzzle flash at 200m in bursts in Auto is dumb, does jack sh!t

But that not what cannon fodder is for, they are for catching enemy bullets so the guys who can hit sh!t see where the enemy is and if they are still functional, to send enough lead downrange, to make smart guys among the enemy keep their bleeding 'eads down.

If the things that make a real difference were easy, everyone would do it.

Thor
 
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Good question. A fixed ESR would not seem a problem. But I guess there might be related temp and voltage coefficients. Not that I can recall seeing this specified on a datasheet ?

Depends on construction.

Film capacitors have stable ESR (it's literally metal resistance), mostly similar for ceramic. Electrochemical is another story.

BUT, for example dielectric absorption would manifest as an apparent Anti-Phase modulation of ESR if we observe ESR dynamically.

All in all, single dimensional views of complex phenomenas tend to be simple and false and mislead.

Thor
 
The crux is the E in ESR. E for "Equivalent".
ESR is a moving target. It is usually spec'd at one frequency, but actually it's a virtual value resulting from several individual factors, some being perfectly stable and constant, others being variable.
The best way for minimizing the effects of this variability is making sure it is small in comparison with the load, which again results in choosing the value of an electrolytic coupling cap much higher than the old rules of thumb would suggest.
 
Based on relative distortion data, it's not an Obsession and electrochemical capacitors are the worst possible capacitor to use for almost any application.
Probably, but they are nothing like as bad as people suggest. Very often they are far better in tweeter sections than some brands of film capacitors. You mention "rolling" capacitors... I will happily roll in Alcaps over cheap film. There's often much more detail, and more body to the sound - which is the perfect combination. In another thread (either here or on the Naim forum) someone replied to me on the subject mentioning that he'd had his Kan Mk1s redone with Solen caps (which I would have expected to work) and it killed the music for him.

Somewhere I have a jpg of some impedance measurements from a decade or so ago of an Alcap vs MKP10 vs a Rubicon ZA and, IIRC, the Alcap is the one that looks most like a theoretical capacitor.
I find that using bipolar types for signal positions and enclosing the capacitors in the AC feedback loop and/or refactoring the circuit to only use film or high quality ceramic types gives measurable and audible benefits.
I agree. I would go so far as to say they are better in some power positions too. If you have an RC on your rail, I would use a bipolar there too. I think Meridian are hip to this too. I saw a part photo of one of their internal amplifiers and it had axial caps in the familiar Alcap blue, right next to the output transistors. There wasn't enough of the circuit board shown to be completely sure of what they were doing but I suspect they were between the rails and ground
Simply untrue. And if your casework has AC magnetic fields IN THE CASEWORK (as opposed to screening them) you have problems on a level we not need to talk capacitors.
Not untrue. I seem to remember this is in Ott and meant to find it for you but was behind in replying here already. I certainly remember my reaction at the time was "Oh, for God's sake! Really?". But of course there are currents in the casework. It's a very good reason to keep the transformers outside the amplifier part.
FWIW, I had a design where polystyrene RIAA EQ capacitors were notably microphonic but silver mica were not.
This is interesting. Maybe those orange drop caps really are the reason only Nakamichi managed to make decent cassette decks. Such an overlooked medium! I've tried to find others that perform as well, including a beautiful B&O 8000 and an award winning Yamaha (where they had obviously tried very hard) but they didn't come close to even a mid range Nak. I've never had a stock of silver mica caps so haven't ever given them a try.
A lot of capacitor problems are real. Ranting that audiophiles are stupid for dealing with them is not constructive.
I think you've misconstrued my position on things audiophile. I would defend almost everything that's usually dismissed as "audiophoolery". In fact I am militantly against anyone who believes that SINAD encapsulates the performance of any piece of equipment (while also not being pro injecting euphony).
Polypropylene is not particularly well damped. Hence my preferrence for stacked film typed in plastic cases, e.g. WIMA FKPxx & MKPxx.
I'd say PP is pretty well damped by comparison to PE, which is why it was used after bextrene in loudspeakers. Sure, it is usually loaded with carbon black in loudspeakers, which helps too, but that was mainly for UV blocking (which it has done amazingly well if you look at a B110 SP1228, 30 odd years on). It's also used in composites for toughness and damping. It is 1/3 as stiff as PET and you can test its properties yourself on any milk container. Or see here: Plastic Rigidity & Material Stiffness, Units, Formula & Table

FKPs and MKPs are my go-to capacitors. I usually stick to MKP4s as MKP10s can get a little expensive. I thought MKPs were wound. Not sure about FKP but I love them.
"Rolling" tubes, Op-Amps and capacitors or swapping cables (and yes they make differences) are accessible to relative laymen in ways that serious circuit optimisation or restructuring grounding are not.
I have no problem with cables sounding different - and indeed they very obviously do. I don't think there would have been the huge industry in interconnects if we had discarded the horrible RCA phono plug and had followed studio practice in using balanced connections 50 years sooner than we did (which is only about now). It is probably better that it has been brought to light, though. At the other end of the amplifier, speaker cables change the response of the speaker, affect the phase margin of the amplifier, act as aerials, reflect what they pick up due to impedance mismatches at frequencies the amplifier can't deal with, probably affect the junctions of the output transistors, have triboelectric effects, are probably microphonic and are essentially one resistor away from the amplifier's input stage. I don't know how anyone can argue they shouldn't have an effect.
Audiophiles gear tends to use direct coupling and servo's as a result, not that this really helps the way it's usually done, IMNSHO. Amplifier input circuits have sufficient loop area and sensitivity, that is a (say) 27mm long capacitor instead of a 10mm one causes problems, you have to fix the bad layout etc first.
I'm not actually pro DC coupling these days but I would be very interested in how you think a servo ought to be done. I was very taken with how Bruno Putzeys did the input of a preamp by subtracting a low pass from the signal. I think he did it so it became an inverse Chebychev so the ripple ended in the stop band, but that may be one step further than he actually went.

I was thinking more a 70mm long capacitor with a 50mm diameter, rated at 600V, which is the kind of thing that sometimes appears at the input of "exotic" MC phono preamps. :)

Christian
 
I have no problem with cables sounding different - and indeed they very obviously do. I don't think there would have been the huge industry in interconnects if we had discarded the horrible RCA phono plug and had followed studio practice in using balanced connections 50 years sooner than we did (which is only about now). It is probably better that it has been brought to light, though. At the other end of the amplifier, speaker cables change the response of the speaker, affect the phase margin of the amplifier, act as aerials, reflect what they pick up due to impedance mismatches at frequencies the amplifier can't deal with, probably affect the junctions of the output transistors, have triboelectric effects, are probably microphonic and are essentially one resistor away from the amplifier's input stage. I don't know how anyone can argue they shouldn't have an effect.
I don't think anybody denies the fact that loudspeaker cables interact with the amp and speaker. However, in most cases, the differences are way outside the domain of perception.
Even the DCR of the cable is not such a significant factor, considering 75% of the speaker impedance is resistive and inductive losses in the voice-coil. It may matter in terms of interaction with passive x-overs though.
If standing waves in the MHz range affect the amp's stability, it shows a very poor design. One can't determine a concept on the basis of a lemon.
About 40 years ago, Sony had an amp with a rise-time of 0.2us IIRC. That's a BW above 1MHz. You couldn't use just any cable with it. Some may have concluded that the cables that worked with this amp were superior. Others (including me) thought the amp was simply inadequate.
 
Ivan has updated the firmware on the Comos ADC ,
I think its now offering 768khz sample rate along with some other customisations of the DSP filtering ,
I think he also gives alternate component selection to open up the bandwidth even more for measurement purposes ,

I got tired of the interface the Cosmos chat runs on ,
the endless repetition of the same question-
'Why am I getting shitty results from my interface , its faulty '
Answer: 'Its user error you f**king dumb bell ' :D
I think Ivan also posts import updates about the interface without all the harrang at Diyaudio.




I recently used a bunch of 100uf 330v caps in parralel on a 5V rail ,
I was able to select from a large batch for samples with lowest ESR ,
Results have been excellent so far after the customary running in time where the tiny storms going on in the electrolytic goo fade away .

Size isnt an issue in this case ,
I use thick copper wire to create busbars supported between a pair of standard electrical terminal blocks , each components legs first wire wrapped ,then soldered . Its ultra fast to build and the results are first class if you do it neatly . Its also easy to add in any extra foil bypass and inductors which I found to have a signifigant impact on noise floor .
 
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One thing that was not mentioned is that the 0.2Hz corner frequency is for electrolytic caps. The actual LF corner of the complete circuit should be determined by a single (or maybe two) sections using film caps, tuned at about 2Hz (for -0.5dB @20Hz).
Check post #33.
I can't find the post with your noise calculations but it's in my email Inbox. This is on the rising 1/f part of the noise graph. The corner frequencies where the rise begins may not be dead on but it's not going to make much difference. I'm using 1Hz noise x Sqrt( ln (corner f/Aperture reciprocal)) for the rms total.

I thought it was going to come out much higher, though it would have to be a hell of a lot more before it becomes significant in an rss sum. Even integrating it visually you'd imagine it was higher, but then these tricky sods move where it intersects the y-axis so you can't see at a glance whether it's bad or not. But, as I said, the surprise here for me was that in low noise op amps the 1/f noise also comes down. I don't know if I have just chosen two LN amps where that happens but, if that's what happens in general, why does anyone ever bother about it? People do write about it as though it's important, but it really seems not to be unless you have a very narrow bandwidth.
 
Ivan has updated the firmware on the Comos ADC ,
I think its now offering 768khz sample rate along with some other customisations of the DSP filtering ,
I think he also gives alternate component selection to open up the bandwidth even more for measurement purposes ,
Yes, I noticed that. Anyway, I'll wait till he launches the DAC.
I got tired of the interface the Cosmos chat runs on ,
Sure, fortunately it's rather easy to sort the wheat from the chaff. After some time, you recognize the good contributors .
Its also easy to add in any extra foil bypass and inductors which I found to have a signifigant impact on noise floor .
Noise floor is a good performance factor, objective as well as subjective.
 

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