Budget "C12" capsules
« on: November 27, 2018, 07:17:02 AM »
I know Advanced Audio and Microphone-Parts (as well as iSK via wgtcenter) offer cheap "C12" capsules, obviously coming from China. From what I've heard Mic-parts just sells the iSK C12 capsules under a different name. Are these capsules any good? Could you build a C414 style mic with one of these, or is it necessary to go with something more expensive? Full Compass offers  replacement parts for C414s which are supposed to be authentic AKG capsules.

Interested in hearing from people who have used the cheaper ones before. Do they even come close to the AKG sound in the C12/C414 or are they just edge terminated K67 capsules?


Re: Budget "C12" capsules
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2018, 07:33:34 AM »
I have several of those chinese capsules and i love them. However, they sound nothing like true CK12. I have two of newer AKG CK12, and Tim Campbell's one to compare them to. I will find a video which describes this perfectly, as the guy compares Akg's, TC's and chinese one. Exactly what i hear with my mics.

Re: Budget "C12" capsules
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2018, 07:35:24 AM »

ln76d

Re: Budget "C12" capsules
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2018, 07:37:01 AM »
They all are just edge terminated K67, some different tuned, more flat etc. Rather with none you wouldn't get hi freq response of original brass CK12. Here best solution is CT12 from Tim Campbell.  If you want to try budget capsule, then definately go for Maiku. It's pleasant sounding.  For Teflon capsules, if you want to get newer C414 response then definately yes.  2072Z00090 is truly good choice. It have similar backplates - resonators patterns to brass CK12, but tuned much different and overall clamped diaphragms are different beasts. To make it more "brass" sounding style you will need to tweak especially polarisation voltage. Another option, risky a little bit, is the fun with the shims under diaphragms. On low polarisation voltage it's commonly called "dark" sounding. C414 circuits were truly different from eachother.  In first versions "E/Comb" definately input topology have impact on the sound of it. Both diaphragms polarised (positive and negative voltage from DC converter), signal from backplate. Changing that topology makes difference in sound. I tested it in original unit for cardioid pattern only.

Re: Budget "C12" capsules
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2018, 07:42:46 AM »
I have several of those chinese capsules and i love them. However, they sound nothing like true CK12. I have two of newer AKG CK12, and Tim Campbell's one to compare them to. I will find a video which describes this perfectly, as the guy compares Akg's, TC's and chinese one. Exactly what i hear with my mics.
Do you know the manufacturer of the Chinese capsule? Or the source you bought it from? If I get a Chinese CK12 I think I might go with iSK's, though there's a good chance I might grab an authentic replacement part from Full Compass (who offers the EB capsule, and the modern C414 capsules).

That video is really interesting. The Chinese capsule doesn't sound too bad, but it seems like it's lacking in low end. I expected the Tim Campbell capsule to sound a lot closer to the AKG one, but I hear an audible difference, though it's much closer than the Chinese one is.

Re: Budget "C12" capsules
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2018, 07:54:46 AM »
I have Rayking ones from Alibaba. I don't believe iSK actually makes them. They have good low end, but none of them like Tim's. I love chinese ones for u87 clones, which is counter intuitive, but they are closer to original u87 capsules than any other center terminated i have tried. They have the same mid range signature imho, and not over the top high end. They have peaks at about 10k+, while CK12 have around 8k and is way smoother.

ln76d

Re: Budget "C12" capsules
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2018, 08:23:21 AM »
I expected the Tim Campbell capsule to sound a lot closer to the AKG one, but I hear an audible difference, though it's much closer than the Chinese one is.

It's audible difference, because this isn't comparison of brass AKG CK12 to Tim Campbell CT12, but Teflon 2072Z0005 (probably - if not newer revision)  vs. CT12. Also both "clones" rather use similar circuit to original C12 circuit (we don't know what transformers are used) and C12VR is much different circuit as also output transformer is much more linear than T14/1. 

Re: Budget "C12" capsules
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2018, 01:13:41 AM »
It's audible difference, because this isn't comparison of brass AKG CK12 to Tim Campbell CT12, but Teflon 2072Z0005 (probably - if not newer revision)  vs. CT12. Also both "clones" rather use similar circuit to original C12 circuit (we don't know what transformers are used) and C12VR is much different circuit as also output transformer is much more linear than T14/1.
Sounds like the Teflon capsule may be for me then, though the CT12 sounds nice too. I'm basically trying to keep this project at about $500 USD, because I've seen some used teflon C414 EBs going for $1000 Canadian, and if I spend anywhere over $700  Canadian (about $530 USD) I might as well just get the C414 EB because it'll have good resale value.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2018, 01:21:24 AM by Icantthinkofaname »

ln76d

Re: Budget "C12" capsules
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2018, 06:36:33 AM »
Sounds like the Teflon capsule may be for me then, though the CT12 sounds nice too. I'm basically trying to keep this project at about $500 USD, because I've seen some used teflon C414 EBs going for $1000 Canadian, and if I spend anywhere over $700  Canadian (about $530 USD) I might as well just get the C414 EB because it'll have good resale value.

Personally i truly like it. I like both types of capsules. Some of the chinese also ;)
Full compas have teflon "9" for 206$. It's not bad price.

Re: Budget "C12" capsules
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2018, 07:44:27 AM »
Personally i truly like it. I like both types of capsules. Some of the chinese also ;)
Full compas have teflon "9" for 206$. It's not bad price.
Which Chinese ones do you like? I'm currently looking at a few options. Buying a Lewitt 441 Flex, buying an SE Electronics T2 , buying an Advanced Audio CM414 (will not have the teflon sound, brass capsule-like probably),  or getting a cheap MXL 770 putting a microphone-parts PCB kit in and installing the Teflon capsule in it and putting on a flat faced grille. Or I just wait another paycheque and get a vintage Teflon capsule C414.

Really just looking to buy or build a decent all arounder. Doesn't necessarily have to be C414 EB like, I just like that sound.

From the chinese? Hmm i'm not sure who makes it.
Definately pretty usefull were capsules from groupbuy - looks similar to rayking, maybe it was isk?
3UAudio are pretty nice.
Definately don't like the type, which is in Chunger store. Similar are used by Audix. 
MXL 770 have pretty good headbasket (single layer) which in pair with teflon capsule makes a great work.
My S16 tube microphone is exactly that combo.
My advice - buy teflon "9", buy MXL 770 or 2006 (not smd) and make KM84 circuit but with DC converter. All you need is exactly on the original PCB. Mparts kit in my opinion is just wasting of money. You are paying for a little bit modified circuit which you already have inside MXL.  Conversion to KM84 circuit from schoeps is pretty simple. For this you need extra 7:1 transformer or 10:1. 3UAudio are truly good and cost almost nothing. Also size here is important - you will fit it without any problem into 770. With all other mentioned by You microphones, without modification you will not get full potential from the Teflon capsule.
I definitely agree the Microphone-Parts kits are ridiculously over priced, but it's really convenient and they have the instructions on assembly so it shouldn't be too hard to figure out. I'd probably have to wait a long time to have a switch PCB printed and all of the parts shipped.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2018, 08:48:21 AM by Icantthinkofaname »


ln76d

Re: Budget "C12" capsules
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2018, 08:06:46 AM »
From the chinese? Hmm i'm not sure who makes it.
Definately pretty usefull were capsules from groupbuy - looks similar to rayking, maybe it was isk?
3UAudio are pretty nice.
Definately don't like the type, which is in Chunger store. Similar are used by Audix. 
MXL 770 have pretty good headbasket (single layer) which in pair with teflon capsule makes a great work.
My S16 tube microphone is exactly that combo.
My advice - buy teflon "9", buy MXL 770 or 2006 (not smd) and make KM84 circuit but with DC converter. All you need is exactly on the original PCB. Mparts kit in my opinion is just wasting of money. You are paying for a little bit modified circuit which you already have inside MXL.  Conversion to KM84 circuit from schoeps is pretty simple. For this you need extra 7:1 transformer or 10:1. 3UAudio are truly good and cost almost nothing. Also size here is important - you will fit it without any problem into 770. With all other mentioned by You microphones, without modification you will not get full potential from the Teflon capsule.


Re: Budget "C12" capsules
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2018, 10:27:10 AM »
If anybody has tried Advanced Audio's AK12, what did you think? The frequency plots I've seen of their CM87 makes it seem a lot brighter than a U87, so I'm a little concerned about trying one of their AK12s without HF de-emphasis. From what I understand they're probably based on the brass CK12s so it might not be what I'm looking for.

The teflon capsule looks like the most interesting option so far. Probably the best all around "work horse" capsule I'm interested in.

ln76d

Re: Budget "C12" capsules
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2018, 03:17:31 PM »
If anybody has tried Advanced Audio's AK12, what did you think? The frequency plots I've seen of their CM87 makes it seem a lot brighter than a U87, so I'm a little concerned about trying one of their AK12s without HF de-emphasis. From what I understand they're probably based on the brass CK12s so it might not be what I'm looking for.

The teflon capsule looks like the most interesting option so far. Probably the best all around "work horse" capsule I'm interested in.

"Our AK12 is a modern version of the CK12 capsule used in the AKG C12/C24, early AKG 414eb, and ELA M251 microphones."
Read this as Chinese capsule, edge terminated 34mm K67 ;)
Definately i would reccomend you Teflon, yes, it's a true "work horse" ;)

Re: Budget "C12" capsules
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2018, 06:39:53 PM »
I forgot i have my own shootout of these capsules.

Two takes of drums, used as overhead Tim's CT12 and Rayking RK12. I have a system with interchangeable capsules so these to takes are with one c12 style circuit. Same grille, same body, only different capsules. No Akg capsule unfortunately.

Here is the link. Download files, don't listen online compressed file.
https://app.box.com/s/nguebnic9z26pr3dk8nm192q1gkm43b7

Re: Budget "C12" capsules
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2018, 02:44:29 AM »
I have Rayking ones from Alibaba. I don't believe iSK actually makes them. They have good low end, but none of them like Tim's. I love chinese ones for u87 clones, which is counter intuitive, but they are closer to original u87 capsules than any other center terminated i have tried. They have the same mid range signature imho, and not over the top high end. They have peaks at about 10k+, while CK12 have around 8k and is way smoother.
Do you use any HF de-emphasis with those capsules or do you just use a linear circuit?

And does this look like the Rayking capsule? http://m.wgtcenter.com/microphone-accessories/capsules-element/microphone-34mm-large-capsule-diaphragm-dual-condenser-project-myla-ck12-pro-diy-element-replacement.html
« Last Edit: December 18, 2018, 04:32:14 AM by Icantthinkofaname »

Re: Budget "C12" capsules
« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2018, 09:03:31 AM »
Yupp, seems to be the same thing.

Well i have swappable capsules/body system. So i get to use them in different circuits at demand.

If you want c12ish sound you don't need deemphasis. You would actually need some 8k boost.

However with u87 style circuit i get closer to real u87 with this capsule than any other k67 i've tried. So it's very versatile capsule. You could add switchable capacitor for different responses. Like 3u Warbler has.

Re: Budget "C12" capsules
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2018, 12:22:34 PM »
Yupp, seems to be the same thing.

Well i have swappable capsules/body system. So i get to use them in different circuits at demand.

If you want c12ish sound you don't need deemphasis. You would actually need some 8k boost.

However with u87 style circuit i get closer to real u87 with this capsule than any other k67 i've tried. So it's very versatile capsule. You could add switchable capacitor for different responses. Like 3u Warbler has.
Do you happen to know which value of the capacitor for HF de-emphasis works best with the Rayking capsules?

Re: Budget "C12" capsules
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2019, 08:11:32 AM »
What are the visual giveaways that reveal a "CK-12 style" capsule to be an edge terminated K67? Are there other signs apart from the type and pattern of the screws around the rim?

Re: Budget "C12" capsules
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2019, 08:37:56 AM »
Drilling pattern.



Re: Budget "C12" capsules
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2019, 08:59:08 AM »
Thanks... so is this capsule in Peluso's new 414 also a K67? No drilling pattern visible in any of the images I can see, which may not be coincidental!


 

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