A Democracy too far?

[JohnRoberts]

PS: I don't mind paying the congress for their faint effort, but one of the recent proposals from the House that was summarily dismissed by the senate was forcing the legislature and their staff to all participate in Obamacare, just like they are forcing us to. I don't trust any cooks who don't eat their own cooking. 

I have to agree with you John. If there was one amendment to the Constitution that I believe would radically and positively affect this country, it would be that all laws apply equally and to the same degree to all congressmen.

That seems logical, and popular. I wouldn't mind paying them 2x or 3x so they might be less tempted by lobbyists, and the huge spending they oversee. Then they could more easily afford to pay for their own healthcare.

Then find a way to eliminate lobbying, making it totally illegal.

Lobbying is actually protected by the constitution as an individual's right to petition the government in our self interest. Where it gets perverted is by the big lobbying money chasing the big money spending by congress. It seems that the campaign funding that requires constant feeding corrupts the politicians with quid pro quo surrounding campaign contributions. There have been numerous attempts to regulate this, while I doubt the congress really has their heart in drying up such a lucrative source of campaign funds.

While I'm at it, a new form of money that might forever simplify and transform our world. Instead of exchanging valuable metals or pieces of paper (or 1's & 0's in a computer that never existed  , how about using TIME as money instead?

We barter time for money equivalents in employment while that is not strictly accurate. We get compensated for value that we create. Money and time are just convenient ways to accomplish that transaction. 

Think about it. The very nature of time is that we all have a limited amount of it. It is therefore essentially equally valuable to everyone. Let's trade hours of our time instead of fiat flubbery.

Some have less than others, my neighbor who is 20 years older than me has even less.

And, let's not fool ourselves. Obama-(doesn't)-care will make this country an Obamination...it ain't gonna work. The current healthcare system is already reeling and straining under all the skyrocketing costs; how can adding millions more people to a system that is already teetering possibly going to be good for anyone?

I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt that they have good intentions. My complaint all along has been the plan, or lack of a plan. Many of the promises that were made for this legislation have already fallen or are teetering.

The name of this legislation "Affordable Care" suggests that it should reduce cost but one major source of funding the medical devices tax seems to be in direct opposition to the stated goal. Taxing medical devices is not even a tax the rich to feed the poor scheme, more like taxing the sick and injured to feed the bureaucrats.  They will argue they are taxing the medical devices industry but taxes get passed along as price increases to the products.

Sure, there may not be any death panels written into O'care (then again has anyone read all of it?), but you watch. Already certain treatments and specialists are denied approval by insurance companies. This is going to be a blood bath.

Mike

The death panel screed is typical hyperbolic political speech. The real issue is about paying for the expanding health coverage. Since day one the numbers have not added up for this idealized solution. The death panel thing is a projection into how the government decision makers will parse out limited resources. We won't hit that wall for years so at this point it is a hypothetical. In some other countries with socialized medicine they manage this demand/resources mismatch by delaying access and surgeries into the future. Some older patients die or pay get treatment via other channels.

It is unfair to argue about a future that hasn't happened yet, but so far many of the things I complained about years ago were correct and had to be changed, but i commented on those in posts here when they happened.

I sincerely hope I am wrong. We will find out soon enough.

JR

 

[JohnRoberts]

Most of the people who are posting are retired or aren't musicians and make a lot more money than a full-time musician.    Speaking from a musician's point of view, I would like to be able to not go into bankruptcy when it's time to pay back medical bills, say for something like having a kid.    in 2005, i went to the ER and took a ride in an ambulance.  I was still in school and on the school's insurance.  However, the school's insurance didn't cover ambulance rides, so i got stuck with the bill.  $400+tax.    That's probably not a lot of money to you folks, but to someone who at the time wasn't even making 1K/month, that's a LOT of money.   

It'll never happen, but it would be amazing if medical expenses were scaled based on your Tax Return.  Like, imagine if you had to file your taxes each year, and you receive a card which shows a number that defines what sort of rate you'll get for medical care.  So, people who make 100K/year get charged more than people who make 10K/year.  Doctors could charge whatever they wanted, but they would have to apply your rate to their decided price.  So, if a general checkup was $500, the 100K/year person might pay 80% of $500, but the 10K/year person might only pay 15% of $500.  that kinda system will never happen tho.

Absolutely brilliant!

But what about something simpler? How about changing the concept that doctors and hospitals are gods and palaces, and simply admit that healthcare is a service we all need - just like we need our autos maintained and our PCB's stuffed (little DIY humor, heheh, er, get it?)...

The difference between servicing your car and getting healthcare is that there is vibrant competition from private oil change shops. Since you pay for oil changes out of your pocket, you reward the oil change shop that charges less and gives you better service.

We don't enjoy the same level of competition between hospitals and we don't pay directly for hospital services, instead they pad up a bill astronomically, then negotiate a special deal with the insurance companies who pay a far lower cost. 

At the end of the day, our children need teachers, our stores need clerks, and our streets need policepeople. And we need doctors. Healthcare should be looked at as a reasonable service, important of course, but similar to all other service we need (which don't charge up the ying yang!).

The price should be determined by simple supply demand. Right now doctors are retiring early and less new doctors are coming behind to replace them. The government's idea of cost cutting is to just arbitrarily pay less for the same thing. Those old enough to remember the gas lines from the '70s, that is what happens when you set the price arbitrarily low. You get less supply. If we want more doctors we need to pay them more, but the doctors weren't the problem,  (it was the insurance company/hospital dealing).

Why in tarnation should an ambulance ride cost $400? This is a symptom of deep and rife corruption, and/or inefficiencies gone wild. Doctors/Hospitals/Big Pharma should not be making gazillions of dollars! A fair wage for a fair service. Use to be doctors did not make much money.

The $400 ambulance ride shows the disconnect between billed costs and real costs. The insurance company will not pay that full $400, just people outside the insurance cabal.

I read about a brothel in Nevada that ran into trouble with the feds for tax violations or something or other. Govt took it over. Within months the place went bankrupt. If the feds can't sell booze and women, how can they possibly be trusted with our healthcare?

</rant>

;D ;D

A funny example. Government isn't supposed to be about business... Remember the "occupy" movements single good thought. We need a separation of business and state, just like the separation of church and state. 

JR

 

[JohnRoberts]

While I am not a tea party guy (I'm not a big follower), that really does appear to be a grass roots movement inspired by angry voters attempting to take back some influence over "our" government.

I don't doubt the genuine feelings of the rank & file--I share many of their frustrations.  It's the folks steering from the top that make me queasy.

You assume that the tea party is full of mindless sheep willing to follow some inspirational leader... If anything that describes everybody else.

AFP is Koch-funded. 

The first several hits on google didn't seem like something you would get excited about. Near the bottom of the page I found "americans for prosperity", Hell I'm in favor of prosperity too. From their website they claim 90, 000 people have contributed to their organization. Looking at the list of directors Richard Fink is also an executive VP at Koch industries. He apparently is the or one of the founders of AFP. Among other things he was an associate professor of economics at George Mason university.

The current manufactured "crisis" was the brainchild of the Kochs, the Cato Institute, and some other well-heeled rightie groups. 

If anything this is just another of the ongoing near continuous legislative conflicts you get when you don't pass a real budget, but instead settle for short CRs (continuing budget resolutions). While I can't know what everybody's motives are (like you do) my suspicion is that Obama thinks he is winning and will continue to win these public skirmishes so invites the fighting.   

I don't trust the motives of any of them, and the Tea Partiers are (IMO) just a tool for them to use to get what they want.  Here's a link to something I didn't know until just now: http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/the-house-gop-s-little-rule-change-that-guaranteed-a-shutdown)

Not sure I would trust a website named "talking points"... but they describe some of the ugly sausage making that Boehner and Reid routinely practice in controlling their respective branches. Calling for votes even when a bill doesn't have enough votes to pass is mainly to embarrass or pressure some subset of the legislators. 

On the other hand, one thing I've gotten a kick out of here in Ga.  is the tea party and Common Cause allying to fight corruption in our intensely corrupt state govt.  They haven't made a ton of headway, but I love that they're working together. 

I'm shocked... better not let the Koch brothers find out.  ;D ;D

That is where we need to be heading.  The power of people is being diminished by the (seemingly) ever-increasing power of big financial firms and huge multinational corporations of every stripe.  No one likes govt. corruption, and if we were all united in fighting it--policing pols on both sides, regardless of whether they're "one of ours"--our nation as a whole would be much better off.

I have a higher opinion of tea party than you do, while I think both parties in office are letting the public down. Their job, all 3 branches, is to negotiate with each other. We rejected monarchy centuries ago. This government shutdown is only some 15% of spending, the other 85% (approx) is still being spent. I don't know why this has to be all or nothing, just give departments 95% of their last years budget. Just buy a few less $900 toilet seats, and they'll break even. 

JR

 

[sodderboy]

Nothing's likely to change in those areas where we agree because the big money (which, in the final analysis, is largely apolitical and plays both sides to get what it wants) is against all of us.  And we're kept divided because there is no party that does not represent the monied interests, and they want us to bicker about our differences rather than unite around our commonalities. 

That's my take on it anyway.

+1

Agreed.  The first step is to reduce the size of the federal government.  It should not a political party issue.  Cuts should be across the board and private accountability instituted. There should not be hundreds of thousands of lobbyists and 150K plus government employees living around DC.  It is because there is too much scope that most of Harry Reid's children can be lobbyists and that Dennis Hastert, a school gym teacher, can be speaker of the house and retire a millionaire.  All the corruption gets lost in the size by design. 

I keep pressuring representatives to legislate the private auditing of government budgets, and the auditors make a % of the waste they find.  It would employ thousands of people and save the people money.  You love government, but what if 5% of a trillion dollar budget is wasted?  It would help so many more people to take that 40 billion (after a 20% commish to the auditors) and put it to the true tasks of all these important agencies.  The problem is that legislators do not think like that any more.  Witness Big Legislation- it is in itself designed not to be understood.

The feds have done a horrible job auditing themselves because the system is rigged against that.  Witness the "military industrial complex", The TSA, free cell phone programs, and the EPA, NEA in general.  The bureaucrat's idea of creating value is enlarging their budget, not streamlining it.

I wish it were as simple as baby and bassinet but it is actually a building of thousands of tubs and regulators and you can't even find the baby.  The fact that half of the US is detached and will be too busy watching Breaking Bad or Duck Dynasty to vote is why I think things will just get suckier as we go along. 
The people running the government should be us, but because half of us are not paying attention the role has been taken by Big This and That. 
Mike

 

[JohnRoberts]

Mike: One minor correction, the free cell phone program is not paid for with tax dollars but subsidized by a higher rate paid by other cellphone customers. This has lead to gaming the system by some cellphone companies that profit handsomely from all the free phone giveaways.

So while this is paid for by the more productive elements of society it is not literally wasting tax dollars, a distinction without much difference. Still a drag on the productive sector.

JR

I borrowed this image from another site

 

[Phrazemaster]

JR, I won't clog up the thread with quoting your responses, but I was very impressed with your thinking and examples. Made me think.

At least we agree that ramming a new system down everyone's throats, without adequate planning or group consensus, is not a plan for success.

Mike

 

[hodad]

AFP may have 90000 donors, but most of its budget comes from a small handful of donors.  This is not a grassroots organization.  Tea partiers as a whole are just as happy to swallow any crap that suits their worldview as any group of people I can think of--whether it's the birther nonsense and all its associated and contradictory twists and turns, or death panels, or whatever nonsense might get thrown their way.  Yes, they distrust the govt., but that doesn't mean they're not incredibly gullible. 

And if you read the NY Times (I know your bias against it) you'd know that I'm not "assigning motives" to anyone when I say that the Koch brothers et al orchestrated this "crisis".  It is not speculation and neither is it any big secret.

Mike, I think it's great that you pressure your reps to audit for waste.  While I may not agree with all your prime targets (many of our regulatory agencies are actually woefully understaffed, f'rinstance), I think there's plenty of waste to ferret out throughout the federal govt. 

 

[tonycamp]

The tea baggers are a phony, NOT grass roots organization started by a republican Dick Armey and funded by republican mega billionaires(look it up), the members are stunningly gullible white racist tools http://aattp.org/20-of-the-most-racist-teapublican-political-signs/ , who actively work against their own best interests?? They showed up(feb 2009, look it up) NOT UNTIL AFTER Bush's ill advised policies crushed the economy, over doubled the ND, and the black guy was elected! You're smokin grass if you think that "movement" was grass roots.
  Obama care was hashed over and over for years!, in 2010, it won in the house/senate and was signed into law by THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, it went in front of the supreme court and was deemed constitutional, then there was a referendum on it in the 2012 elections...Obama won by over 100 packed football stadiums full of voters!, like it or not, American democracy spoke, and now these brat child representatives : who themselves and their constituents, clearly have no respect for American democracy, are obstructing the functions of government and holding the debt ceiling over us as a hostage at gunpoint, they are quite literally terrorists screwing with the stability of the world economy because of the ACA??(a law designed to help your fellow American human brothers to buy affordable health care coverage?? wow! what shining examples of christian values) It's utterly unconscionable to use the full faith and credit of the USA as leverage against ANYTHING on the legislative docket, let alone the scurrilous act of throw your anti democratic temper tantrum! shame!

Even more twisted is the ACA will more than likely be successful, then what are these terrorists going sell their day walking mouth breathing constituents? I'll tell you what they're gonna sell em, the same old, repackaged, weak ass bs they sold em the 1st time, and sadly, the morons will rush in to buy it again :

sorry for the ambiguity, next time i'll try to tell you exactly how i feel ;D

 

[Phrazemaster]

In the age of digital voting, it's easier than ever to create fraudulent results. Google Diebold machine fraud and find out whether the pole results are the will of the people, or the will of the hackers/oligarchy. Hanging chads are a thing of the past; now it's hanging 1's and 0's.

To believe the press is to commit intellectual suicide.

YMMV

Mike

 

[JohnRoberts]

AFP may have 90000 donors, but most of its budget comes from a small handful of donors.  This is not a grassroots organization.

I didn't bring them up, just reporting what they say on their website

Tea partiers as a whole are just as happy to swallow any crap that suits their worldview as any group of people I can think of--

That seems to be the human condition. That's why certain news organizations try to match the world view of their audiences, since creating cognitive dissonance makes them uncomfortable and perhaps change the channel. 

whether it's the birther nonsense and all its associated and contradictory twists and turns, or death panels, or whatever nonsense might get thrown their way.  Yes, they distrust the govt., but that doesn't mean they're not incredibly gullible. 

Another aspect of human nature is that many people are too willing to accept conspiracy theories. Perhaps a sub clinical form of paranoia, or perhaps something else. I have already addressed the death panel criticism (inadequate resources to deliver unlimited, expensive, end of life care for everyone). Calling these government decision makers "death panels" is political hyperbole, but if people don't feel like they are spending their own money, should we expect them to be frugal about end of life care? 

The nominal birther complaint was given far too much media attention by Donald Trump and his motives seem transparent enough (selling stuff with his name on it). The left leaning media were all too happy to give the idiots all the rope they wanted, while ignoring other real stories actually important for the election decision. Trump's run for office was never a serious venture.  Similar political hyperbole was practiced by the other side when they prepared ads showing Ryan pushing grandmothers in wheelchairs off the cliff. It's just the ugly side of politics. The way some play it.

The birther bruhahha raised some interesting questions about young Barry's college years, that AFAIK remain unanswered, but at this point I find it too little too late to dig up some embarrassing personal information. Let sleeping dogs lie. (that saying works on several levels).   

And if you read the NY Times (I know your bias against it) you'd know that I'm not "assigning motives" to anyone when I say that the Koch brothers et al orchestrated this "crisis".  It is not speculation and neither is it any big secret.

I actually read the NYT every day for one year back in the '70s (along with WSJ and Wash Post), to gauge the bias and selective presentation of different newspapers. I somehow doubt that the NYT his veered to the political center since then. My bias if you want to call it that was not casually formed from here-say or second hand information. I invested the time to read and decide for myself.

I have little use for the Koch and Soros of this world with their deep pockets, throwing their disproportional weight around in politics. I see the influences of deep pockets on both sides. As I've offered before the best way to reduce the attraction of government for the big money faction, is to reduce the size of the pot of gold that is government today and expanding into healthcare another 17% of the private economy. 

The big money/politics has influenced election politics to the point hat campaigns are (or sure seem) continuous. Hopefuls from both sides (Hillary, Christie, et al) are campaigning already for 2016.

Mike, I think it's great that you pressure your reps to audit for waste.  While I may not agree with all your prime targets (many of our regulatory agencies are actually woefully understaffed, f'rinstance), I think there's plenty of waste to ferret out throughout the federal govt.

It is not just a matter of regulatory staff size but regulatory competence and direction. I have seen some modest improvement in catching inside traders, but there is still a lot of work to do... The full court press against JPMorgan seems more a vindictive punishment against Jamie Dimon for being critical of his regulators.

We need enforcement of existing laws. not a massive expansion like Dodd/Frank that still isn't finished being written.

While opinions vary. More bigger government is not the only answer...

JR

 

[JohnRoberts]

The tea baggers are a phony, NOT grass roots organization started by a republican Dick Armey and funded by republican mega billionaires(look it up), the members are stunningly gullible white racist tools http://aattp.org/20-of-the-most-racist-teapublican-political-signs/ , who actively work against their own best interests?? They showed up(feb 2009, look it up) NOT UNTIL AFTER Bush's ill advised policies crushed the economy, over doubled the ND, and the black guy was elected! You're smokin grass if you think that "movement" was grass roots.
  Obama care was hashed over and over for years!, in 2010, it won in the house/senate and was signed into law by THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, it went in front of the supreme court and was deemed constitutional, then there was a referendum on it in the 2012 elections...Obama won by over 100 packed football stadiums full of voters!, like it or not, American democracy spoke, and now these brat child representatives : who themselves and their constituents, clearly have no respect for American democracy, are obstructing the functions of government and holding the debt ceiling over us as a hostage at gunpoint, they are quite literally terrorists screwing with the stability of the world economy because of the ACA??(a law designed to help your fellow American human brothers to buy affordable health care coverage?? wow! what shining examples of christian values) It's utterly unconscionable to use the full faith and credit of the USA as leverage against ANYTHING on the legislative docket, let alone the scurrilous act of throw your anti democratic temper tantrum! shame!

Even more twisted is the ACA will more than likely be successful, then what are these terrorists going sell their day walking mouth breathing constituents? I'll tell you what they're gonna sell em, the same old, repackaged, weak ass bs they sold em the 1st time, and sadly, the morons will rush in to buy it again :

sorry for the ambiguity, next time i'll try to tell you exactly how i feel ;D

You start off with a pejorative ad hominum and go downhill from there.

Posts like this are evidence of group think where someone may not ever actually talk with people who hold opposing views. The decision to use such inflammatory language will not lead to an open thoughtful exchange of ideas, but will harden previously held perspectives. 

Sticks and stones.....

have a nice day.  8)

JR

 

[tonycamp]

Mr Roberts! I started with the truth, with links as proof, you want to show me otherwise? i didn't think so... to suggest i engage in conversation with people who shun empirical evidence, and don't even recognize the color of healthy grass as being green, is not something i'm interested in doing, other things i'm not interested in doing is swimming with alligators, or sleeping with tigers, your long winded condescending posts where you continually act like you've got every topic you interject into figured out and cornered, including your last post, is old hat for you, and in line with your judgement of me. How's this for group think, my brother works(ed) as a government employee, he's furloughed! now it's time to figure out how he's gonna feed his family! real enough for you? or am i group think !!

squawk on, i hate this BS, i'm out

 

[JohnRoberts]

Mr Roberts! I started with the truth, with links as proof, you want to show me otherwise? i didn't think so... to suggest i engage in conversation with people who shun empirical evidence, and don't even recognize the color of healthy grass as being green, is not something i'm interested in doing, other things i'm not interested in doing is swimming with alligators, or sleeping with tigers, your long winded condescending posts where you continually act like you've got every topic you interject into figured out and cornered, including your last post, is old hat for you, and in line with your judgement of me. How's this for group think, my brother works(ed) as a government employee, he's furloughed! now it's time to figure out how he's gonna feed his family! real enough for you? or am i group think !!

squawk on, i hate this BS, i'm out

I recognize the color of grass, but do not consider every criticism of the current president as racist. That is simply an attempt to discredit any speaker and change the subject to avoid factual discussion of important issues. 

I waited a while for your link to load but it was too slow for my short attention span. I do not doubt that there is bad behavior by extremes from both sides of the aisle.

I'm sorry your brother is considered non-essential by his employer (us apparently).

I look forward to the private economy returning to it's pre-2007 strength, someday. The current employment situation is horrible, but if we keep doing what we are doing, we will keep getting what we are getting (small incremental improvement). if we don't screw even that up with the current political mischief in DC.

JR

 

[hodad]

I'm sorry your brother is considered non-essential by his employer (us apparently).

I look forward to the private economy returning to it's pre-2007 strength, someday.

JR

A little snark on the Nonessential comment?  What most of us here do, what most of the private sector economy does, is "nonessential."  I have a friend who works as a lawyer for the feds who is laid off--the work won't go away, but it can be put off.  And I know folks who work for the CDC--vital work, but most of what they do counts as "nonessential." 

Also, I'm guessing you know that nearly all the job growth lately has been in the private sector, while public sector employment has remained flat.  You should be rejoicing--private sector employment has boomed while the govt. has not grown!  You should be dancing with joy and singing the praises of Obama! 

 

[JohnRoberts]

I'm sorry your brother is considered non-essential by his employer (us apparently).

I look forward to the private economy returning to it's pre-2007 strength, someday.

JR

A little snark on the Nonessential comment?  What most of us here do, what most of the private sector economy does, is "nonessential."  I have a friend who works as a lawyer for the feds who is laid off--the work won't go away, but it can be put off.  And I know folks who work for the CDC--vital work, but most of what they do counts as "nonessential." 

Something like 83% of government spending is on automatic pilot so still happening.

While I haven't repeated this argument, some on the right suggest the fact that the sun hasn't stopped coming up this week, suggests that maybe these non-essential workers should remain off the payroll. I haven't made the argument yet, without closer inspection.

Snark... yup, I'm human like the rest of us. Treat me with respect and I will return the favor. I do try to remain civil while I am not a saint.

Also, I'm guessing you know that nearly all the job growth lately has been in the private sector, while public sector employment has remained flat.  You should be rejoicing--private sector employment has boomed while the govt. has not grown!  You should be dancing with joy and singing the praises of Obama!

Yes, government employment peaked several years ago... When tax receipts collapsed several years ago the states who can't print money, had to cut workers sharply. I doubt the IRS has shrunk much lately, ramping up for healthcare enforcement duties..

I probably have a lower opinion of government workers than is fair from all the examples of government workers behaving badly we see in the news.. They are probably no better or worse than any other similar sized organization, if another that large could be found.


JR

PS:  I apologize for all the repetition. Yes I am weary of this too.

 

[mulletchuck]

Have any of you seen the C-Span video that's circulating on facebook of a congressman asking the Pro Tempore of the room if the rules regarding who can petition the government to return from a shutdown were changed, and if they were changed to only allowing the Majority Leader the power?

https://www.facebook.com/video/embed?video_id=4799101234652

f**k YOU, REPUBLICAN ASSHOLES. 

 

[JohnRoberts]

Have any of you seen the C-Span video that's circulating on facebook of a congressman asking the Pro Tempore of the room if the rules regarding who can petition the government to return from a shutdown were changed, and if they were changed to only allowing the Majority Leader the power?

https://www.facebook.com/video/embed?video_id=4799101234652

f**k YOU, REPUBLICAN ASSHOLES.

Back at you...

yes i saw that or something similar a few days ago...  What is your point? The majority leaders of both houses routinely manage when they allow votes to occur for various reasons. Like to pressure or embarrass sub factions, sometimes to prevent embarrassment for legislators who don't want their vote on record. (The sausage making can be complicated, not so simple or villainous as the partisan spin suggests).

I have heard so much crap coming from both sides trying to manipulate public opinion to pressure each other,  that I have turned off the news channel a few times this week, to keep my blood pressure down.

Just like any well managed political theater I expect us to enjoy an intermission soon until january (?) of next year when we can resume the Kabuki dance over negotiating spending and budget with both sides so separated in preferences.

Save your invectives for the real villains (both sides in DC) who apparently like the fight. How much money have they wasted in the name of saving money? A bunch, not to mention slowing GDP growth for all of us.

They are all self serving sc__bags, we do not need to stoop to their level in our personal intercourse.

JR

[edit for those not watching the man behind the curtain I think I am seeing some new arm waving activity back there...  A nuanced position regarding the "no nuke" policy for Iran is being floated, and the sudden appearance of another terrorist for trial in NYC... hmmm change the subject and/or flip-flop when nobody is looking moves...  but I'm probably wrong about this too. It's probably just biddness as usual in DC    [/edit]

 

[hodad]

Save your invectives for the real villains (both sides in DC) who apparently like the fight.
JR

Both sides may like to fight, but this one was the work of the GOP.  This is not their first pass at this tactic, and they were sure that once again Obama would back down and give them tons of concessions--jsut so they could pull the same stunt in another few months.  The GOP got more than it could handle, and people finally got sick of the brinkmanship. 

If you want to blame Obama for standing up to the bullies, fine.  But he did not go into this spoiling for a fight.  This one is on the GOP 100%. 

 

[JohnRoberts]

Save your invectives for the real villains (both sides in DC) who apparently like the fight.
JR

Both sides may like to fight, but this one was the work of the GOP.  This is not their first pass at this tactic, and they were sure that once again Obama would back down and give them tons of concessions--jsut so they could pull the same stunt in another few months.  The GOP got more than it could handle, and people finally got sick of the brinkmanship. 

If you want to blame Obama for standing up to the bullies, fine.  But he did not go into this spoiling for a fight.  This one is on the GOP 100%.

I think I have been pretty clear that I disagreed with Cruz and his groups tactics.

Neither side has clean hands in this.

Obama being bullied, is laughable, he is the president practicing Chicago rulz from the big chair ("They pull a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue. *That's* the *Chicago* way! "). While I suspect the characterization that he is the victim in this may play well to some sympathetic demographics.

I stand by my original framing of this as a desire to tax and spend less, vs a desire to tax more and spend more, with a strong bias towards wealth re-distribution. Lets call it what it is and stop all the diversionary blather.

For the record I favor the former (tax less and spend less) as being better for everybody in the long term. Making us all poor is not the answer for income inequality.

JR

 

[hodad]

Obama being bullied, is laughable, he is the president practicing Chicago rulz from the big chair ("They pull a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue. *That's* the *Chicago* way! "). While I suspect the characterization that he is the victim in this may play well to some sympathetic demographics.

Yet another tired stereotype, to go along with being a Saul Alinsky radical, closet Muslim, etc.  From the left, I assure you that Obama often comes across as a weak-kneed compromiser, although he has a knack for salvaging things when all seems lost (part of his style).  This could well have been a case of "give 'em enough rope & they'll hang themselves."  Which may prove to be effective.