Anyone using real Neuman capsules in mic builds....

[gary o]

Anyone using real Neuman capsules in DIY or kit mic builds & does can anyone compare the cheaper capsule copies.... would love to hear your thoughts..... Im thinking of buy a Neumann capsule from  Sennheiser. I need a cardiod vocal mic so may buy a K47FET capsule or a K870......£560/600....still lot of money but some of the cxlones prices I getting high.... I have made many classic circuits U47 M49 U67 U87 Elam 250 Gefell & others & as other builders have found & pointed out most of a mic sound comes from the capsule & I totally agree hence Im looking for a nice capsule.

Thanks.

 

[Melodeath00]

I haven't used a genuine Neumann before (I've only built two mics so far), but why don't you just go for it and make your own conclusion? I know when I build a U67 and M49 I will be getting Neumann capsules from Sennheiser. These mic builds will always be a balance of budget and quality. For me, I usually want to go all out and get as close as possible to the real deal. Others just want a fun project and don't want to spend as much. The choice is yours

 

[micaddict]

No brass/bronze ring, though.

FWIW.

 

[e.oelberg]

thiersch m7 are probably the best m7 you can get right now. The name is not always the best

 

[gary o]

Thanks for response guys

No brass/bronze ring, though.

FWIW.

Do you mean the new capsule dont have brass ring Micaddict..... its a shame how companies like this try to save a few pennies.

thiersch m7 are probably the best m7 you can get right now. The name is not always the best

Is the Thiersch made by them so really another clone although it seems to have the best reputation, gefell still put M7s in there mics dont they ?

I dont mind spending the money but for the right thing & I think about 90% of a mic sound is capsule & Im lucky to have parts laying around to make many mic circuits to compare now I wanna spend some dosh on a known capsule as it were, Im all for DIY capsules but we have to get these parts to try them & it adds up might as well buy the real deal in the first place ....

Theres guy on fleabay selling K67s £469...... tempting but ebay worries me....£604 from Sennheiser...... or K49 fet sigle sided £560 Sennheiser...... or maybe a Thiersch M7.....

Be interesting if theres a DIYer that has a neumann capsule & Tim Cambel as I know the Tims sound.....

 

[e.oelberg]

thiersch is the former head of repair at Gefell. If somebody knows it today it|s him

 

[gary o]

thiersch is the former head of repair at Gefell. If somebody knows it today it|s him

Thanks & they make a capsule from scratch ? & he skins them ? Iv always been a little confused about what they sell, although as I say I read great things about them, they only do M7 ? under £300 if I remember correct & theres a choice of membrane type PVC or Mylar.

 

[e.oelberg]

he builds the whole capsule, PVC is the original material ( less durable ) and mylar the modern

 

[Melodeath00]

Why do you think the bronze ring matters? Modern K47 capsules are as good as they ever were, in addition to being more consistent.

 

[micaddict]

It's one of those things. Some believe, others don't. Hence my remark "FWIW".
I personally do believe all differences make a difference.  :  But is it enough to be audible to most human ears? That's another matter.
In any case plastic is a vastly different material than brass or bronze.
A guy like Ben Sneesby will tel you these things do make a difference and he even uses the original gun metal alloy on some of his capsules (not quite the same as brass).

 

[tskguy]

Hey guys,

Keep in mind Neumann never made the 87 67 style capsules with brass rings, they may have but none that I have seen.. Also the modern 67 Neumann makes today is very different than what was made in the early years. Spacers are gone and the holes are larger so the capsules have a bit brighter sound than the early ones I modeled my capsules after. So if your looking for a vintage 67 87 sound sadly the modern Neumann capsules won't give you that.. If your talking m49 47 capsules you really can't go wrong with thiersch m7 or even a flea k47. Also flea sells backplates Un skinned for a very reasonable price that I would be happy to skin for you...

Eric

 

[Melodeath00]

I haven't heard anything about that. FWIW, even Klaus thinks modern K47 and K67 are as good these days as they ever were. I think there was a period of time where the K87 wasn't as good-sounding as in the past, but that's it's fine nowadays.

The Thiersch M7 PVC is a fantastic capsule, but from everything I've read online, is darker than a genuine M7 or K47. I would love to have one - I'm just pointing out it's not quite the same as the real deal.

 

[gary o]

I never heard that modern K67 K870 is different to vintage betfore...... So neuman spare part for U47 FET k47fet is only vintage capsule thats same as was back in the day.......not sure if I want a M7 clone really.... I bet the Flea isnt far off neumann price will check that out ......

Its seems a lot of the clone capsules that share the vintage model numbers use not only wrong materials but wrong dimensions & diaphram thickness too not saying they cant be good tho....but is it possibl to make something from different material different sizes & diaphram & make it sound same as the real deals ? ...... I have K67 brass look a like a Violet desighn Vin 67 capsule thats meant to sound like a U67 complete mic with just a flat fet amp its bloody expensive at £600 & I havent a real U67 to compare to so dont know if sounds like a whole U67..... but the capsule does sound bloody good !

Great interesting info fellas thanks for your thoughts keep em coming......

 

[tskguy]

Hi all
Let me be clear, this isn't speculation from my part. I have skinned a large number of both old and new Neumann 67 capsules as well as taking detailed measurements. They are different!! And to my trained hear sound different. Not bad just different. And the way they sound different reflects what I see in the measurements. I can't say anything about the k47 as I haven't had the pleasure of repairing one yet.
Eric

 

[micaddict]

tskguy wrote:

Keep in mind Neumann never made the 87 67 style capsules with brass rings, they may have but none that I have seen..

Early K67s were brass or bronze if you will.

Let me be clear, this isn't speculation from my part. I have skinned a large number of both old and new Neumann 67 capsules as well as taking detailed measurements. They are different!

Yup.




Edited to add a Klaus Heyne quote:

"Here is a rough overview over the K67/87/870 capsule generations. One day, I will add photos, just not right this minute.

1. Similar appearance as K47/49, but with two backplates mounted against each other with four M3 screws (If I recall correctly). Brass diaphragm rings, no mounting threads for the capsule mount in the backplates (these were held in the threaded mounting ring via three pointed set screws), ca. 1960-1961

2. Same as above, but with eight M2 threads in the two backplate halves (2x4, offset from each other), ca. 1961 to 1964

3. Same as above, but with brown fiberboard diaphragm rings replacing the brass rings, ca. 1964 to 1966

4. First generation of plastic diaphragm rings (ivory color), whose mounting screws were recessed into the plastic, to be flush with the ring's surface, ca. 1966 to 1980

5. Same as above, but with white instead of ivory-colored rings

6. Same as above, but diaphragm mounting ring screws no longer recessed, since 1980

Versions five and six went through five generations combined; their subtle differences through time are only noticeable to an expert. Likewise, it's initially not easy to separate a K67 from a K87 by looking at it. Though, upon closer inspection, you can see the 40µ aluminum separator ring between the two backplate halves on K67/870.

Since the late 1970s, all K67/87/870 are marked with a single digit indicating the last digit of the year of manufacture (i.e. "7" for 1987, 1997, 2007, etc.)  This can be confusing for a layperson, because numbers repeat every 10 years. But the combination of build characteristics and date number allows pinpointing the year of manufacture fairly easily."

 

[Winetree]

This was sent to me from Neumann reguarding reskining my U87 capsules;
Thank you for your recent email.  We do not "reskin" capsules.  As the capsules are originally produced in a level 100 cleanroom under very strict conditions, we can only offer service (cleaning, testing) here at our facility in the U.S. or we can offer replacement capsules - - but we do not "reskin".  To ensure the highest level of quality this type of work should only be done under the same conditions in which the capsules are originally manufactured - which we do not have here at our office in Old Lyme.  Other service companies claim to offer reskinning but to do so without cleanroom conditions and the proper equipment could introduce dust, hair or other foreign particles into the capsule and is not recommended.  We have also found that the labor and work involved to reskin a capsule exceeds the original manufacturing cost.  I would encourage you to read through the posts on this thread on our web forum (one of our engineers responded as well) - http://www.neumann.com/forums/view.php?site=neumann&bn=neumann_mictec&key=1124483569

Even Klaus Heyne (well respected for doing U 87 "modifications") is not a particular advocate of reskinning a microphone - http://repforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?topic=8835.0

If you would like to have your U 87 evaluated, please contact our Service Department at 877.736.6434 or begin a service case online at https://secure.sennheiserusa.net/ .  During the setup of the repair, do not be alarmed by the "pre authorization amount".  This is just a suggested amount that would allow our technician to work continuously without stopping to get authorization and assumes a worst-case scenario.  There is also an option to "request an estimate" later in the process and bypass any preauthorization.  Please also note that if you do choose the preauthorization route, we do not charge your card for the full amount.  Again, it simply means that you are authorizing the technician to work UP TO that amount.  You will only be charged for the labor and parts actually used for your repair.

Please let me know if you have any additional questions.

Best Regards,
Christopher Currier
Product Specialist, Studio Systems / Wired Mics

 

[gary o]

Interesting reading also great reading from those links thanks....... I wonder if the ivory coloured plastic rings sound different to the white plastic rings on those K67s. I jest .......I read that the K47 fet capsule is daul sisded but not matched & is £560 & K47 is £785 as I only want cardiod I can purchase the cheaper one....

 

[trans4funks1]

Does anyone know what a genuine Neumann K47 costs in the USA?

What sort of capsule mounts are available for exact fit?

Thanks.

 

[Melodeath00]

A genuine K47 is about $715 in the US.

 

[o3misha]

All materials used for modern M7 are modern, including PVC. Polyvinyl chloride in times Neumann was produced another way than moderm PVC. Membranes were prepared by polymerization using a water surface. This unique method that is now virtually not applicable due to the large amount of manual labor and low efficiency (only a small part of polymerized "on the water" PVC films had sufficient quality and "uniformity"  for the production of the capsule). All material (PVC and PE)  are prepared differently and has other physical properties. Therefore, modern M7 different from the old . However, I would not say that modern Thiersch capsules have less treble and sound darker. Rather, they have better dynamics at low frequencies. This is especially true for Red M7 . In my opinion - is the best M7 capsules  today. Considering the difference between the old and the new M7, you need to apply a little more polarization voltage (70-80 V) to new modern M7 to get close to the old M7 frequency response (with more bright and light sound) .