Brexit

[thermionic]

don't tell me boris please .....

Bookies' favourite. ' Donald Trump with a thesauraus'. What a chancer! No track record speaking out against the EU, jumps on the bandwagon and gets PM out of it. It's a shame he's such a glib, empty vessel.

Cameron called the referendum in order to bolster his own power. When it became apparent that Osborne was far more likely to succeed as PM, J took a punt and became arch Euro-sceptic overnight.  Not a bone of integrity between the 2 of them.

 

[DaveP]

How do you figure that? He gambled the economic future of an entire nation just to secure his own momentary political security, destroying himself in the process. Fully got what he deserved.

Sorry but this is a distortion of the truth.  Cameron was faced with the choice of the conservative party splitting or the referendum.  No-one thinks he did this willingly, it was a risk but there was a precedent with the 1975 referendum.  What no-one could have predicted was the Syrian migrant crisis and Merkel letting so many into Germany.  If you read my more detailed posts, you will see that this problem goes back a long way and is not about momentary political advantage.

You sound like someone with pro Scottish sympathies?  I love the Scots and I have good Scottish friends who are pro independence but when they ran their independence campaign, they did not anticipate the dramatic collapse in the oil price,  Sh*t happens as they say.  Same as happened to Cameron (Scottish roots)

One of the quirky things about the UK is that the Prime Minister consults with the Queen every week.  It is probably not appreciated elsewhere in the world the enormous shame Cameron will have endured by him unfortunately giving his sovereign a scenario whereby her kingdom is likely to disintegrate due to his promise of a referendum on the EU.  He was between a rock and a hard place.

DaveP

 

[zamproject]

We will be in control of our borders at last which may be a plus

You mean the border moved at Calais, with one of so many special agreement Brit asked to EU ?
I tell you, today some French politician already ask to break this agreement, your border will be Dover... and we will no longer
block migrant that want to cross the channel

Personally I'm not happy to see the Berxit, but it's the best way for EU, as I already say here, Brit never play the game, so at least now it's clear.
It's a loose/loose situation, bad choices and for the wrong reason (in my opinion)
The deep ideology behind this, whatever polishing they have all around Europe now, murder a politician days ago in GB...
So short memory... EU give us peace and prosperity since WWII
In few years England will be alone and Great Britain will explode. For sure it will work but at which price

In France we have an expression, "cracher dans la soupe"

Best
Zam

 

[JohnRoberts]

We will be in control of our borders at last which may be a plus

You mean the border moved at Calais, with one of so many special agreement Brit asked to EU ?
I tell you, today some French politician already ask to break this agreement, your border will be Dover... and we will no longer
block migrant that want to cross the channel

Personally I'm not happy to see the Berxit, but it's the best way for EU, as I already say here, Brit never play the game, so at least now it's clear.
It's a loose/loose situation, bad choices and for the wrong reason (in my opinion)
The deep ideology behind this, whatever polishing they have all around Europe now, murder a politician days ago in GB...
So short memory... EU give us peace and prosperity since WWII
In few years England will be alone and Great Britain will explode. For sure it will work but at which price

In France we have an expression, "cracher dans la soupe"

Best
Zam

For non francios that means "Bite the hand that feeds you"...(spit in the soup)  not sure that makes much sense in light of european history (but I'm a yank). (makes more sense...)

From here (the US)  it looks like NATO (and UN?) kept the peace since WWII and BREXIT does not change the UK's membership status in NATO.

JR

 

[Script]

"cracher dans la soupe"
lit. 'spit into the soup' -- 'rain on someone's parade' -- 'spoil something' -- (vul.) 'piss on something'

So not an attack on anyone handing over anything, but rather an insult and spoiling of something for someone else.

 

[leadbreath]

as an "immigrant" to the UK I have now applied for refugee status   

hey, on the dole,free house, car, mobile phone why didn't I think of it before  8)

 

[DaveP]

Somehow I don't think this is going to be a done deal.

The petition for a second referendum is over a million already and growing as fast as the site can run.

There is a majority of MP's in the UK parliament who are against leaving  and they are unlikely to ratify such momentous legislation on such a slim majority.  I think that Corbyn is going to be kicked out for his less than enthusiastic performance and a new leader will be totally pro the EU.  I think that we are moving towards a general election before article 50 is submitted, if ever.

I think that this result will finally galvanise the younger generation to vote for their future and get more involved.  We can now see the implications writ large, Scotland breaking away, more troubles in Ireland, Spain taking back Gibralter, France giving up containing migrants, political chaos and resignations.

People knew what they were voting against, but not what they were voting for.

They certainly didn't think we would end up as a country like this, or in the hands of a dick head like this.



DaveP

 

[[silent:arts]]

Somehow I don't think this is going to be a done deal.

While I dislike the referendums result I don't think there is any undo without destroying even more.
It is now to the Brits sending the letter fast without any delay, and not playing games until October.

 

[ruffrecords]

Somehow I don't think this is going to be a done deal.

The petition for a second referendum is over a million already and growing as fast as the site can run.
DaveP

That would be an even bigger disaster. All those who could not  be bothered to turn out to vote on the day but the result is not the one they wanted have no one to blame but themselves. Trying to ask for a second chance is the short route to anarchy, civil unrest and is about as uncivilised a reaction as you can possibly imagine. Accept the result and move on.

Edit: Just to put this into perspective, with our first past the post electoral system, rarely does the incumbent government have the approval of more than 40% of those that actually bothered to vote.  Next time the government I don't want does not get elected I think I will start a petition for another general election right away.

Cheers

Ian

 

[DaveP]

That would be an even bigger disaster. All those who could not  be bothered to turn out to vote on the day but the result is not the one they wanted have no one to blame but themselves. Trying to ask for a second chance is the short route to anarchy, civil unrest and is about as uncivilised a reaction as you can possibly imagine. Accept the result and move on.

Edit: Just to put this into perspective, with our first past the post electoral system, rarely does the incumbent government have the approval of more than 40% of those that actually bothered to vote.  Next time the government I don't want does not get elected I think I will start a petition for another general election right away.

While I agree with the blame being on the younger people who did not bother to vote (Glastonbury?), they seem to have woken up now the sh*t has hit the fan.

The silence from MP's is deafening  and they and the electoral system you describe has it's own agenda, I think plan B is belatedly being formed.  We all may have to accept the consequences of what happens next in parliament.  When I started this reply the petition was at 1,452,360, it is now 1,505,633 so watch this space.

DaveP

 

[ruffrecords]

While I agree with the blame being on the younger people who did not bother to vote (Glastonbury?), they seem to have woken up now the sh*t has hit the fan.

DaveP

I doubt there are a quarter of a million voters at Glastonbury and they are not all youngsters; many of the 'older' generation attend Glasto. They all knew in plenty of time when the referendum was going to be held so they could easily have arranged a postal vote. They are all so on line savvy it would have been trivial to arrange. If they did not bother, then.......

Cheers

ian

 

[Banzai]

That's two-party based democracy for you, with 50% of the population always unhappy with the outcome: this petition could reach 16,141,241 signatures, still wouldn't make a difference.

You also reinforced the earlier point that Cameron's motives for the referendum were entirely political. Considering the direct effect on UK households of each, linking the conservative party falling apart to the UK possibly leaving the EU shows how terrifyingly arrogant and reckless he was.

When I started this reply the petition was at 1,452,360, it is now 1,505,633 so watch this space.

DaveP

 

[PRR]

EU give us peace and prosperity since WWII

From here (the US) it looks like NATO kept the peace since WWII

No.

"peace and prosperity"

NATO defended against Russia, and other outside threats. It wasn't intended to deter another war IN west Europe. It did, because all the different Majors worked together on exercises etc which dilutes military (not political) hostilities. Prosperity hardly at all, aside from equipment-buy and salary trickle-down.

EU has peace and prosperity in part because WWII was such a shock (but who remembers??) and because they joined their several medium-size markets into one super-market. This was a direct response to the rise of the USA, which was at least as big as any individual EU country, with more raw resources. Together the EU is at least as strong as the USA market on a good day. As in the US. each area does what they do best, cars or fish, and sells it to another area, without much government tax or paperwork. This isn't instant-money, but high borders between small/medium states leads to very local economies which are poor and fragile.
___________________

Maine newspaper is crying that we may export less to the UK, our #7 export market, due to smaller GBP and not using the UK as a door to the EU market.

 

[DaveP]

You also reinforced the earlier point that Cameron's motives for the referendum were entirely political. Considering the direct effect on UK households of each, linking the conservative party falling apart to the UK possibly leaving the EU shows how terrifyingly arrogant and reckless he was.

So what you are saying is that he should have denied the electorate the opportunity to vote in a referendum in the national interest?

You must know the psychology that when you ban a record it then goes to number one?  The enormity of the groundswell of opinion could not have been suppressed.  Whilst I agree that the government and the conservative party are not one and the same thing, at the time they were because Labour were unelectable, in those circumstances it was in the national interest.

Personally, I think that leaving the EU is one thing, the break up of the UK is quite another.  I am conscious of the fact that my Dad (and everyone else's) put his life on the line in WW2 for this country, to see the sacrifices of millions wasted for the likes of Farage and Boris is anathema to me.

1,704,233

DaveP

 

[DaveP]

this petition could reach 16,141,241 signatures, still wouldn't make a difference.

Can't see that happening, what do you think the MP's will be doing this weekend, a round of golf or strimming their lawn edges?

No, I think they will be preparing for Tuesday.

1,714,767

DaveP

 

[leswatts]

A very grim morning here. Very upset and I fear for my business.

Stewart
Think again about getting into manufacturing. I still think a new Reslo RB would sell like gangbusters.
BTW the Polyribbon is going well. Still have a backlog, very slow and hard to build. Wait.... YOU could make them....

Les
http://lmwattstechnology.com/

 

[rob_gould]

You also reinforced the earlier point that Cameron's motives for the referendum were entirely political. Considering the direct effect on UK households of each, linking the conservative party falling apart to the UK possibly leaving the EU shows how terrifyingly arrogant and reckless he was.

So what you are saying is that he should have denied the electorate the opportunity to vote in a referendum in the national interest?

Yes.

Decisions are taken by government which are in the national interest. The system is that we elect the politicians based on their manifestos and to some degree their general idealogical  beliefs, then they take decisions on policy and law on our behalf on the basis of their experience and expertise. It's their job, and though I don't suggest in the least that all of them are good at it, they're better informed, on the whole, than the majority of the public.

The important point : A huge cross-party majority supported Remain. Bigger than for any other political issue I can personally remember.

This indicates to me that the people who should know, crucially  from parties who's entire ideologies I DO support, and parties that I DON'T, all arrived at the same conclusion... that Remain was the correct option for the UK irrespective of political standpoint.

They didn't get to make this decison in the end. It was made be a group of people who frankly, which ever side they were on, were for the most part under informed and angry - a dangerous combination. This has lead to a situation where actually no one has any idea how this is going to play out. That's not a good situation for a country to be in as far as I'm concerned.

 

[DaveP]

I agree with all of that Rob, but the trouble was we needed a stable government at a very difficult time after the credit crunch, I think that was why he made that promise.  In hindsight it would have been better to have endured a worse financial crisis than what is happening now.

1,987,948

DaveP

 

[JohnRoberts]

"cracher dans la soupe"
lit. 'spit into the soup' -- 'rain on someone's parade' -- 'spoil something' -- (vul.) 'piss on something'

So not an attack on anyone handing over anything, but rather an insult and spoiling of something for someone else.

My bad for getting my translations from google...

JR

 

[geotone]

I agree with all of that Rob, but the trouble was we needed a stable government at a very difficult time after the credit crunch, I think that was why he made that promise.
DaveP

The crunch was 2008 (with Gordon Brown as PM), Cameron's promise was made in 2013, if I remember right.