covid politics
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I'm glad we've steered the discussion back onto a more productive track .
When I mentioned a slippery slope in relation to manditory vax'ing ,it wasnt so much from an economic perspective or cost to the taxpayer,the non medical costs alone in terms of income support here in Ireland is budgeted at 38 billion which is roughly half what the banking collapse cost us , our autonomy as human beings , how do we cost that though ? .
Frame of reference this side of the pond with regards healthcare is vastly different , emergency treatment here is never based on abillity to pay , if you've developed a serious illness like diabeties your covered although 'lifestyle' based remediation and recovery from illness is often overlooked in favour of vast amounts of free dope for hypochondriacs at the taxpayers expense , seems to me many people will themselves ill without actually addressing major underlying issues , which themselves are a damning inditement of the system .
Maybe I am guilty of couching an argument behind a 'what if' or so called JAQ'ing , maybe though its all a clever ruse to try and prevent people posing awkward and difficult questions of the system , questions that are a serious threat to the pharmacological bigwigs and their attendant pisslickers , politicians.
Now that brings me neatly onto the other point I want to make , that foetal cell lines were used in the development of vaccines , I wouldnt doubt for a second ,thats the tip of the GOF iceburg . Here in Ireland we have our own attrocities to contend with relating to vaccine trials on the living , the children of single mothers mostly ,forsaken by family and state and handed off to a Roman catholic church based quango in the pay of the state . People born with dissabillity with or badged as defective mentally so family could save face were/are subject to similar unethical practises.
Gain Of Function is a new term in my vocabulary ,but the underlying goals are far from the new shinney penny that they might appear to be . The weaponised strains of Anthrax , did afterall pass through a human host , as it was shown in rabbits that the virulence of the disease in the target species could be amplified in this way , it turned into a Frankenstinian nightmare when US government workers were targeted with said weaponised strain , by Americans on American soil , law of unintended consequences is typically well burried in military 'lessons learned' manuals for fear of litigation or political fallout . Chemical as well as biological GOF experiments are as old as the hills , everybodies been at it , dont be so cock sure your home team aren't as bad as all the rest , Fauci is starting to look like the breakwater/fallguy in the USA's latest off shore venture and he'll wind up hung out to dry in the end too .
references:
1977 Senate Comittee hearing into project Mk Ultra , conspiracy theories if they have any merrit sooner or later harden to fact , looking the other way is only a short game diversionary tactic that comes back and bites you on the arse later.
Left/Right in political terms is an imaginary line drawn by the people in power to divide and divert us from whats really going on .
perhaps I should wait before posting this , have it proof read in the morning by trusted people before hitting 'post reply' , actually fuck it 'Vino veritas' lump it or like it , its from the heart
David
When I mentioned a slippery slope in relation to manditory vax'ing ,it wasnt so much from an economic perspective or cost to the taxpayer,the non medical costs alone in terms of income support here in Ireland is budgeted at 38 billion which is roughly half what the banking collapse cost us , our autonomy as human beings , how do we cost that though ? .
Frame of reference this side of the pond with regards healthcare is vastly different , emergency treatment here is never based on abillity to pay , if you've developed a serious illness like diabeties your covered although 'lifestyle' based remediation and recovery from illness is often overlooked in favour of vast amounts of free dope for hypochondriacs at the taxpayers expense , seems to me many people will themselves ill without actually addressing major underlying issues , which themselves are a damning inditement of the system .
Maybe I am guilty of couching an argument behind a 'what if' or so called JAQ'ing , maybe though its all a clever ruse to try and prevent people posing awkward and difficult questions of the system , questions that are a serious threat to the pharmacological bigwigs and their attendant pisslickers , politicians.
Now that brings me neatly onto the other point I want to make , that foetal cell lines were used in the development of vaccines , I wouldnt doubt for a second ,thats the tip of the GOF iceburg . Here in Ireland we have our own attrocities to contend with relating to vaccine trials on the living , the children of single mothers mostly ,forsaken by family and state and handed off to a Roman catholic church based quango in the pay of the state . People born with dissabillity with or badged as defective mentally so family could save face were/are subject to similar unethical practises.
Gain Of Function is a new term in my vocabulary ,but the underlying goals are far from the new shinney penny that they might appear to be . The weaponised strains of Anthrax , did afterall pass through a human host , as it was shown in rabbits that the virulence of the disease in the target species could be amplified in this way , it turned into a Frankenstinian nightmare when US government workers were targeted with said weaponised strain , by Americans on American soil , law of unintended consequences is typically well burried in military 'lessons learned' manuals for fear of litigation or political fallout . Chemical as well as biological GOF experiments are as old as the hills , everybodies been at it , dont be so cock sure your home team aren't as bad as all the rest , Fauci is starting to look like the breakwater/fallguy in the USA's latest off shore venture and he'll wind up hung out to dry in the end too .
references:
1977 Senate Comittee hearing into project Mk Ultra , conspiracy theories if they have any merrit sooner or later harden to fact , looking the other way is only a short game diversionary tactic that comes back and bites you on the arse later.
Left/Right in political terms is an imaginary line drawn by the people in power to divide and divert us from whats really going on .
perhaps I should wait before posting this , have it proof read in the morning by trusted people before hitting 'post reply' , actually fuck it 'Vino veritas' lump it or like it , its from the heart
David
Everytime we come to an idealogical crossroads were faced with a choice , seen or unseen either through willfull neglect or lack of education it impacts on peoples lives , now the majority of the dirty work shifted offshore to far away places doesnt mean we shoulder any less of the blame as consumers . Our everyday choices as human beings impact every other organism on the planet , inexstricably linked for eternity or more likely until humanity fades itself out and the wilderness regains control on mother natures behalf because we fucked it up 
Oh yes, it def is... whenever and by whoever it is used
If we were happened upon by the most benign peace loving aliens in the galaxy and they decided we (humanity) were a parasite/pestilence, a saprophytic load on every other organism , would they be justified in squashing us out of existance under something akin to Roddenberrys 'prime directive' ?
sorry I did not mean to spread anti-vax rhetoric....
[edit- I only mentioned "thalidomide" because I didn't consider it a credible reason to avoid vaccine. Not to drag too much personal laundry across the WWW, this former co-worker's wife has a medical situation causing their doctor's advice to forgo vaccination (for her). They are seriously sheltering in place. I can imagine motivations for and against the husband of an old married couple getting vaccinated alone.
I can understand without agreeing. /edit]
JR
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iturnknobs
Well-known member
I'm not sure if you are in the U.S., but seeing as we do not have universal healthcare, I am waiting for full FDA approval. Once that is complete, insurance companies will be able to deny coverage to unvaccinated people who end up in the hospital with covid. At that point, people can be "free" to do as they please. These discussions will end quickly. Money talks. This would be one of the rare instances where capitalism actually would work towards my interests.
Depending on who you believe full FDA approval could come as soon as Sept or more like next Jan. The catch 22 in gauging long term efficacy of a vaccine is that these vaccines have not been in use very long (months).
The FDA full approval process is operating at normal government speed, not "warp speed". Indeed full FDA approval would remove one more excuse.
JR
The FDA full approval process is operating at normal government speed, not "warp speed". Indeed full FDA approval would remove one more excuse.
JR
The French in typical style arent taking the suggestion of a two tier society well at all .
Protests and rallies were organised in many places in the last days , in Paris riot squads blasted many off their feet with water cannon .
A segment of the hospitality sector here in Ireland are choosing to keep their doors closed instead of bothering with the extra staffing requirments , all doors to licesenced premesis and resturants now have to have to be manned with 'security' personell , many bar owners also feel having to police their customers on behalf of the government is a step too far . Of course owners have always had the right to refuse admission or to ask people worse the wear due to drink to leave , these new regulations certainly will put staff in greater danger of conflict . Moderate newspapers here are now badging the protesters as 'Far Right extremists' but you only have to look at the photos of the demos to see the vast majority are just ordinary men women and children .
My guess is these protesters for the most part arent calling for reasonable safety precautions to be abandoned entirely , more about the principles involved and the erosion of hard fought personal liberties . I ,as I said find it quite disturbing that many people who wear the badge of pro choice/pro equality are now starting to sound as bad if not worse than the people at the fringes .
Australia's vax uptake rate is estimated to be around the 30% mark , taking sides and finger pointing doesnt address what I believe is the underlying issue here , lack of faith in the political system itself . Clearly some of the anticipated benefits of the vaccine havent materialised , just because your vaccinated doesnt mean you cant catch a variant , and doesnt stop you from passing it on to others , vaccinated or not , so this idea that because you have been vaccinated life can start returning to more or less normal is far fetched wishfull thinking , lets face it was just a hunk of bait to get people across the vax line . At the moment we simply dont know what the unintended consequences of this experiment will be in the longer term . Lets just imagine for a second the entire approach to covid vaccination turns out to have been flawed , will the political and the medical/pharma sector be made walk the plank into shark infested waters ? the answer is no , if it turns out to be good judgement they come out well , if they irevocably screw up the human geneohm they have their asses covered by the waivers and clauses limiting liabillity . It like saying if we win we win , if we loose theres no consequences , the tax payer foots the bill either way.
Protests and rallies were organised in many places in the last days , in Paris riot squads blasted many off their feet with water cannon .
A segment of the hospitality sector here in Ireland are choosing to keep their doors closed instead of bothering with the extra staffing requirments , all doors to licesenced premesis and resturants now have to have to be manned with 'security' personell , many bar owners also feel having to police their customers on behalf of the government is a step too far . Of course owners have always had the right to refuse admission or to ask people worse the wear due to drink to leave , these new regulations certainly will put staff in greater danger of conflict . Moderate newspapers here are now badging the protesters as 'Far Right extremists' but you only have to look at the photos of the demos to see the vast majority are just ordinary men women and children .
My guess is these protesters for the most part arent calling for reasonable safety precautions to be abandoned entirely , more about the principles involved and the erosion of hard fought personal liberties . I ,as I said find it quite disturbing that many people who wear the badge of pro choice/pro equality are now starting to sound as bad if not worse than the people at the fringes .
Australia's vax uptake rate is estimated to be around the 30% mark , taking sides and finger pointing doesnt address what I believe is the underlying issue here , lack of faith in the political system itself . Clearly some of the anticipated benefits of the vaccine havent materialised , just because your vaccinated doesnt mean you cant catch a variant , and doesnt stop you from passing it on to others , vaccinated or not , so this idea that because you have been vaccinated life can start returning to more or less normal is far fetched wishfull thinking , lets face it was just a hunk of bait to get people across the vax line . At the moment we simply dont know what the unintended consequences of this experiment will be in the longer term . Lets just imagine for a second the entire approach to covid vaccination turns out to have been flawed , will the political and the medical/pharma sector be made walk the plank into shark infested waters ? the answer is no , if it turns out to be good judgement they come out well , if they irevocably screw up the human geneohm they have their asses covered by the waivers and clauses limiting liabillity . It like saying if we win we win , if we loose theres no consequences , the tax payer foots the bill either way.
One of the largest studies about Ivermectin turns out be false:
https://www.medpagetoday.com/special-reports/exclusives/93658
Some of the patients in the test had already died before the study started...
Unfortunately, most meta studies used for approval have used the data from this study. These will need to recalculate their findings.
https://www.medpagetoday.com/special-reports/exclusives/93658
Some of the patients in the test had already died before the study started...
Unfortunately, most meta studies used for approval have used the data from this study. These will need to recalculate their findings.
crazydoc
Well-known member
No, it' wouldn't be far fetched if vaccination were successful. As more people become vaccinated or recover from infection (or die), and you approach herd immunity, R becomes less than 1, and fewer and fewer people become infected to spread the disease (there are still infections, but diminishing incidence).. The problem is those who refuse vaccination will not give us enough immunity to keep it from spreading. The more infections, the more it replicates, and the more chance for new mutants, not only that make it more contagious, but most likely at some point more lethal, and less responsive to vaccination, prior infection, and treatment.
We are possibly in for some even deeper shit.
Addendum later: I was just thinking, while taking a shower (so glad I have electricity/water today), that we have essentially two herds here in the US - the vaccinated and the unvaccinated. Now if there were just a way to keep them separated.
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Yup. The aim is to force it from being pandemic to being endemic ('out-of-control spread' versus
'possible to handle'). Still I am hoping that at some point the virus mutates to being highly contagious but causing less or little problems to the host. This hasn't happened so far -- on the contrary, and it was vastly unrelated to vaccination (delta developed before mass-inoculation took off in India, same for alpha beta...). But I am also not sure how likely a mutation into a less harmful variant is.
Meanwhile collected data worldwide clearly indicates that vaccination contributes to work in exactly that direction. It makes the virus endemic among vaccinated people, while it stays pandemic among the unvaccinated etc folks.
The question for us all has never been whether we catch the virus but when. I for my part prefer to be prepared. Diet, physical excercise and sunlight I think are all good but alone do not suffice. Also, this vaccine more and more looks like it works just like any other vaccine before (overall comparable side effects, combining different vaccines is also possible if not preferable, and there are a few breakthrough infections). Unlike other vaccines before, however, this one is much more effective against the enemy. Naturally, there is a strong focus on all those 'negative' aspects, but there have never been that many people being innculated at the same time (TBC being an exception maybe).
OverallI, the longer the pandemic lasts, the bigger the damage to society, economy etc. Therefore, one could make the case that all unvaccinated people naturally contribute to prolonging this pandemic.
Anyway, personally I am fully aware that even if fully vaccinated I can pose a risk to unvaccinated folks around me (elderly with weak immune response, the immuno-suppressed, etc etc plus also to those who do not want to be vaccinated). -- In general, I do care about my neighbors, even if I didn't talk much to them. But I understand that for some (too many) caring for self and dear ones has taken top priority (livelihood) -- and they cannot be blamed.
Are you trying to control and influence the public sentiment of this forum?
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Same institutions that promote this position have no problem using products based on the torture, killing, or abortion of animal life.
It's sketchy ethics.
shabtek
Well-known member
animal life is fair game
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
in the beginning there were cattle?
creeps creepeth.
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
in the beginning there were cattle?
creeps creepeth.
I think there is a way to keep people apart CrazyDoc , its called civil war
As far as the games, tools and manipulating people , it does come across as a bit disingenious and mercenary John .
I had a an aquaintance years ago who always recomended 'How to make friends and influence people' , the number of people he dumped down upon from a great height after lulling them into a false sence of security was truely beyond belief , he's by trade a plumber . My grandmother years back had an issue with the waste water pipe to the road backing up , I gave my 'pal' a shout , It was clearly explained to him that my dad would pay him by cheque and that he wasnt to charge the old lady cash . Not only did he take payment from my grandmother but he also cashed the check my dad sent him thinking we'd be none the wiser . I could go on and on with stories of how this narcisistic pig knifed his friends in the back back over the years but there no need , we surely have all experienced that kind of two headed snake at some point in our lives .
In regards to Shabs statement , my dogs are faithfull loyal affectionate and loving because I showed them those qualities , sadly there are members of my immediate family who on a bad day barely exceed the emotional intelligence of amoeba .
As far as the games, tools and manipulating people , it does come across as a bit disingenious and mercenary John .
I had a an aquaintance years ago who always recomended 'How to make friends and influence people' , the number of people he dumped down upon from a great height after lulling them into a false sence of security was truely beyond belief , he's by trade a plumber . My grandmother years back had an issue with the waste water pipe to the road backing up , I gave my 'pal' a shout , It was clearly explained to him that my dad would pay him by cheque and that he wasnt to charge the old lady cash . Not only did he take payment from my grandmother but he also cashed the check my dad sent him thinking we'd be none the wiser . I could go on and on with stories of how this narcisistic pig knifed his friends in the back back over the years but there no need , we surely have all experienced that kind of two headed snake at some point in our lives .
In regards to Shabs statement , my dogs are faithfull loyal affectionate and loving because I showed them those qualities , sadly there are members of my immediate family who on a bad day barely exceed the emotional intelligence of amoeba .
Herding cats on the internet is a poor use of time.
I have interest in the practice of persuasion, previously as used for business to sell goods and more recently as self defense against the steady drip drip drip of political persuasion going on. I find it remarkable the ad content I see these days while I DVR skip through most of it, a few get through. Be aware when you see a TV ad somebody paid to produce and run that advertisement.
Hopefully if I can reveal the men and woman operating behind the curtain I can help a few people avoid being influenced without their awareness it is happening in plain sight.
This thread is specifically about covid politics, investigating how political pukes are trying to use a natural disaster for personal or partisan gain.
Caveat Lector all. If you don't know who the sucker is in the poker game, you are the sucker.
JR
The chief factor that allows a variant to become "successful" is that it can spread more rapidly than other versions of the virus. There's not necessarily an evolutionary trend toward being less problematic to the host. A good example I saw given was smallpox: it was pretty much just as unpleasant when it was eradicated as it was thousands of years before.
crazydoc
Well-known member
I think one way to get more people vaccinated would be to address their patriotism. Many of those who refuse vaccination consider themselves super-patriots (MAGA, etc.) and might be persuaded to vaccinate. Leaders (particularly Republican) should point out to them that in past wars, Americans have stepped up, at personal risk, to protect their fellow citizens, the country, and the American way of life. Point out that this is another war (that we are losing), against a common enemy, the virus, and that by getting vaccinated they are warriors fighting for America.
Unfortunately that would presuppose that Republican leaders have the balls to do this, putting country/humanity before re-election (like Liz Cheney). Oh wait - how does a woman hve bigger balls than the men?
Unfortunately that would presuppose that Republican leaders have the balls to do this, putting country/humanity before re-election (like Liz Cheney). Oh wait - how does a woman hve bigger balls than the men?
BUT, if a virus kills the host too quickly it doesn't spread very well in the cemetery. There is a strategy in warfare where it is more valuable to wound opponents than kill them, because a wounded soldier ties up multiple other soldiers to care for them. I don't know if there is a parallel in infectious disease spread.
Sorry to be "scientific" in the political thread.
JR
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