Donald trump. what is your take on him?

[ruffrecords]

What I don't understand is why the turnout was barely above 55%. Don't the people of the greatest  biggest democracy in the world think it is worth getting out of bed to vote for something this important. At least for Brexit we got a 72% turnout.

Cheers

Ian

 

[Banzai]

Well you see for president we do not go on majority vote,  we use the following.
https://www.archives.gov/federal-register/electoral-college/about.html
now they do not always vote the will of the people and in some states it's an all  electoral votes go to one candidate. It's not a perfect system by any means and may even seem outdated but no one from the democratic party seemed to mind it when they got their candidate elected for the last 8 years.

Obama won by 10'000'000 votes in 2008, and 5'000'000 in 2012. Both times his mandate was beyond doubt.

With Trump, the 'majority' of Americans didn't vote for him. Nevermind the system being imperfect, it's basically broken.

 

[Banzai]

Don't the people of the greatest  biggest democracy in the world think it is worth getting out of bed to vote for something this important.

Cheers

Ian

Even that crown goes to India...

 

[Phrazemaster]

Obama won by 10'000'000 votes in 2008, and 5'000'000 in 2012. Both times his mandate was beyond doubt.

With Trump, the 'majority' of Americans didn't vote for him. Nevermind the system being imperfect, it's basically broken.

It's not broken, it was designed this way, and it works very well at keeping a layer of power separated from the people. We do not elect our president. Maybe the electoral college should just vote, if they can decide against the states they represent.

Our system is many things, but broke it ain't.

Now you tell me it's horrible for the majority and you got my vote, pun intended.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Clearly, a vote in Alaska isn't worth the same as a vote in California or Florida (seems like it's more valuable?). How do you Americans feel about your votes not being equal?

I'm just not sure how you can call it the greatest democracy on earth, when the majority vote loses...

Because it isn't a simple democracy as I have shared before (representative republic). 

Civics education is another area that is lacking in this country.

JR

PS: I am sympathetic to those upset by the election outcome. That is exactly how I have felt for the last 8 years.

 

[JohnRoberts]

What I don't understand is why the turnout was barely above 55%. Don't the people of the greatest  biggest democracy in the world think it is worth getting out of bed to vote for something this important. At least for Brexit we got a 72% turnout.

Cheers

Ian

Voter turnout usually reflects excitement for individual candidates and this election had two of the least loved candidates in a very long time. Further the acrimonious campaign turned off a lot of voters who were disgusted by it all.

As I speculated before some of this was to plan, but the intent was to turn off independents who might vote for the other guy and the other candidate's followers.  Hillary needed Obama's voters to turn out in strength for her and President Obama campaigned aggressively for her trying to deliver them and preserve his legacy.

President Obama remains unusually popular for a "lame duck" president (did I get it right that time?). But his influence was insufficient to maintain congressional seats in both previous mid-term elections, apparently lacking this time too. 

It is embarrassing how many US citizens vote, but I am OK with that listening to typical man on the street interviews as they share their wisdom.    The voting public is not as informed by the campaigns as scared by both sides.

JR

 

[mattiasNYC]

What I don't understand is why the turnout was barely above 55%. Don't the people of the greatest  biggest democracy in the world think it is worth getting out of bed to vote for something this important. At least for Brexit we got a 72% turnout.

Cheers

Ian

From what I can see, a lot of Americans are too lazy or ignorant to vote. But equally worrying is that the election is placed on a Tuesday that isn't a national holiday. So it makes it far harder to vote for those who have to work. They can't take time off because of employers that won't compensate them if they do. And of course we all know who that demographic votes for in general.

But yeah, it's pretty pathetic to call it a democracy, or a democratic system, and then have such an uneducated population where only 55% votes.

 

[mattiasNYC]

We do not elect our president. Maybe the electoral college should just vote, if they can decide against the states they represent.

Now we're on to something. Add to that how districts are drawn on the map and it's a real problem. Then again, we won't see this change with a republican president, house and senate.

So yeah, the system isn't broken, it just sucks.

 

[mattiasNYC]

PS: I am sympathetic to those upset by the election outcome. That is exactly how I have felt for the last 8 years.

Except Obama wasn't caught in nearly as many lies, didn't mock disabled people, didn't promote the idea of screening people for religious views prior to entering the nation, didn't say he grabs women by the pussy, didn't host a reality tv show, didn't say that China was guilty of creating the narrative that there's global warming (i.e. a "hoax"), didn't imply that all Mexicans bring is rape and drugs.... etc....

He may not have been your candidate of choice, but the above sets Trump apart from Obama in a very concrete way.

You'd have had exactly the same 'case' if you were a minority that would legitimately fear your liberties and rights could be taken away during his presidency. The difference goes far beyond just economics.

 

[micaddict]

When I see and hear Barak Obama I see and hear a fine gentleman with reasonable ideas.
Not that he was allowed to do much with them.

When I see and hear Donald Trump  I see and hear one of the nastiest postwar creeps I've witnessed, with ideas I won't even go into.

But I must be losing it.
So many people can't be wrong ...

Anyway, the original question was "Donald trump.  what is your take on him?".
Well, there you have it.


Edit: Ouch. That was four years ago. I've learned a thing or two since then.

 

[Matador]

PS: I am sympathetic to those upset by the election outcome. That is exactly how I have felt for the last 8 years.

Well, get ready for the next 4 years of Trump's top priorities:

1) Spending increases: billions on the wall
2) Repeal Obamacare - back to the previous "Get Sick, Please Die Quickly" healthcare system
3) Rip up the Iran Nuclear deal
4) Back the US from climate change deals like the Paris Accords (because climate change is a hoax!)

#3 kind of renders the other ones moot:  I guess it must be of some small comfort to those that don't live in first strike zones.

 

[ruffrecords]

From what I can see, a lot of Americans are too lazy or ignorant to vote. But equally worrying is that the election is placed on a Tuesday that isn't a national holiday. So it makes it far harder to vote for those who have to work. They can't take time off because of employers that won't compensate them if they do. And of course we all know who that demographic votes for in general.

Seems a pretty poor argument to me. In the UK we always have elections on a Thursday. The idea of wasting a public holiday on voting would not go down well . Polling stations are open form early morning until at least 9pm.  No real excuse not to make the effort. It's just another chore to be done that day. Surely US polling stations don't close early?


Cheers

Ian

 

[ruffrecords]

Now we're on to something. Add to that how districts are drawn on the map and it's a real problem. Then again, we won't see this change with a republican president, house and senate.

So yeah, the system isn't broken, it just sucks.

Don't you have the equivalent of the electoral reform society in the US?

http://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/

Cheers

Ian

 

[mattiasNYC]

When I see and hear Barak Obama I see and hear a fine gentleman with reasonable ideas.
Not that he was allowed to do much with them.

When I see and hear Donald Trump  I see and hear one of the nastiest postwar creeps I've witnessed, with ideas I won't even go into.

But I must be losing it.
So many people can't be wrong ...

We've spent decades refining the art of not telling the truth in everything from business to advertising to entertainment. It's no wonder people by and large have been conditioned to not paying attention to it or valuing it. I think this was pretty foreseeable.

Yes, that 'many people can be 'wrong'....'

 

[Andy Peters]

Well, get ready for the next 4 years of Trump's top priorities:

1) Spending increases: billions on the wall
2) Repeal Obamacare - back to the previous "Get Sick, Please Die Quickly" healthcare system
3) Rip up the Iran Nuclear deal
4) Back the US from climate change deals like the Paris Accords (because climate change is a hoax!)

#3 kind of renders the other ones moot:  I guess it must be of some small comfort to those that don't live in first strike zones.

I wish I lived in a first-strike zone.

A few years ago, I started to read Cormac McCarthy's novel, "The Road." I got about a third of the way through and stopped, because I realized I could be The Man and my son could be The Boy, and that scared the hell out of me. I suppose I should finish reading it, because since I don't live in a first-strike zone, perhaps to get some survival ideas (and yes, I know how some people in the post-apocalyptic world survive).

That said:

I have many friends who are now worried that their literally life-saving access to affordable health insurance will go away.

I have friends who are mixed-nationality who have kids my son's age (they all went to the same pre-school and now are in the same elementary school). In one family, father is Mexican, his wife is American, they have three kids, and the oldest (he's 9) asked his father, "Will he really deport us?" This is a question I've heard several other kids asking teachers at the school. These kids are scared.

In that same little circle is a lesbian couple who have a kindergarten-age daughter. This couple has been together for years, and they got married the day that marriage equality was legalized here. One of the women is the birth mother; her wife adopted the daughter. They are now worried that, if Mike Pence has his way, their marriage will be dissolved and the adoption will be overturned. Their worries echo those of their other gay and lesbian couples friends, as well as thousands of such couples nationwide.

The truth is we really don't know what kind of President Trump will be. But we have clues, starting with his cabinet selections. Secretary of State Newt Gingrich? The global community is alternately laughing hysterically and reaching for the Xanax.

There has been a lot of handwringing from the usual media suspects, asking us (those opposed to Trump in particular and Trumpism in general) to "try to understand the Trump supporter." A friend has asked: "Is anyone asking Trump supporters to understand us?" The answer: CLEARLY NOT.

 

[Andy Peters]

Don't you have the equivalent of the electoral reform society in the US?

http://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/

Getting rid of the Electoral College requires an amendment to the Constitution, and suffice it to say that won't happen.

 

[mattiasNYC]

Seems a pretty poor argument to me. In the UK we always have elections on a Thursday. The idea of wasting a public holiday on voting would not go down well

Depends on if one thinks it's more important to have a real democracy where every person's vote matters of putting capitalist interests first I guess.

Polling stations are open form early morning until at least 9pm.  No real excuse not to make the effort. It's just another chore to be done that day. Surely US polling stations don't close early?


Cheers

Ian

Depends on where you are.  There are people that work very long days. I for example can end up starting work 8-9am and finish around midnight. If the idea is that I leave work for a while then in the US it may be a 3 hr wait to vote. Then you have to add transit to that and all of a sudden this easy exercise in voting either extended my day by four hours or took that time away from my employer.

It's a problem.

This really shouldn't have to be discussed in my opinion. You'll see plenty of Americans saying it's the greatest most free democracy on the planet, yet the concept of making it easy for everyone who has the right to vote to actually do so is something they don't want.... for some reason.

Now, some here will think that I'm just a whiny liberal upset that the election went the other way, so let me just re-post what I posted before the election:

Nevada's Republican Party chairman, Michael McDonald, told a Trump audience in Reno on Saturday that polling locations were kept open late so that a "certain group" could vote.

"Last night, in Clark County, they kept a poll open 'til 10 o'clock at night so a certain group could vote," McDonald said in introductory remarks at a Trump rally. "The polls are supposed to close at 7. This was kept open until 10. Yeah, you feel free right now? You think this is a free and easy election? That's why it's important."

At that rally, Trump suggested that the polling location's extended closing time to allow voters to cast their ballots was a sign of a "rigged system" pitted against his campaign.

"It's being reported that certain key Democratic polling locations in Clark County were kept open for hours and hours beyond closing time to bus and bring democratic voters in. Folks, it's a rigged system. It's a rigged system and we're going to beat it. We're going to beat it," Trump said.

See?

We saw the popular vote, and we see the stupidity of the electoral system. Some people benefit by having elections on a workday with a narrow window for voting. As far as I'm concerned the US has the means to keep it open from like 4am-midnight in addition to allowing early voting via mail etc, and frickin' everyone should get a valid free ID by whatever state they're in so they can vote.

By western nation standards the system is just ridiculous.

 

[mattiasNYC]

The truth is we really don't know what kind of President Trump will be.

In the midst of all of this one issue has been pushed back a bit, getting a bit lost, and that's that Trump effectively has sanitized a lot of the hateful divisive and bigoted views spewed by some of his supporters. They may be a subset of the US population, but it's not a small subset.

And so a lot of damage has actually already been done in that plenty of people who are anti-LGBT, pro-white-power, Isalmophobic, anti-Hispanic or generally xenophobic, plenty of them now feel they have a voice in the highest official position in the US. If the president of the USA can be anti-Muslim, anti-Mexican, anti-LGBT, then surely I can too. Surely I can protest and yell names at people, possibly assault them or damage their property. Because this white man now showed us all that we're back.

So I foresee even worse conditions in huge parts of the US for these groups, and I don't think Trump can undo that damage.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Don't you have the equivalent of the electoral reform society in the US?

http://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/

Cheers

Ian

Maybe build a better "republic" not a better democracy.

While this may not be apparent from a distance there is tension between liberal big cities, and conservative rural areas for power over the federal government.

The electoral college preserves a semblance of balanced state's rights where lightly populated states are represented more fairly when deciding federal business.  Electoral college reform is "code" for shifting power from the flyover states to the populous cities.

The constitution is not about popular mass rule, but protecting individual and local rights. I wouldn't mind repealing the 17th amendment that established the popular election of senators instead of the former appointment by state legislatures that reduces state power in federal decisions.

The best governance is the most local where local people make decisions affecting themselves personally, not ruling from a distance with one size fits all laws.

JR 

PS: I doubt I can completely understand the Hillary voters because I do not look to big government to solve all our problems, I do know how it feels to be on the losing side for the last 8 years, as i was repeatedly reminded in discussions here. FWIW do not believe the hyperbolic characterizations that came from both sides in this election. The government is designed so that change is hard. That works both ways. All the executive orders can be undone fairly quickly, but laws will need to be repealed and re-written, which will take time and effort. 

PPS: For the people still trying to paint all republicans as bigoted, racists, please pause and reflect on what you are saying. If you want you voice to be heard in future decisions stop calling us names and talk policy. This name calling is identity politics at its worst and that was just rejected by the public in a general election.

 

[mattiasNYC]

JR,

I can't make sense of your position on a broader level.

- You seem to advocate capitalism, and as part of that advocacy you argue that it brings up the quality of life for those at the bottom internationally

- You vote for a candidate who vowed to tear apart the very global trade agreements that supposedly spurred said quality of life increase

- Why is it that you and others want less government and advocate people pull themselves up by the boot straps and work to be profitable, yet it's the very same fly-over group that's the poorest and gets the most support from the government....

I suppose I'm just not seeing a clear principle at work here. Nationalist protectionism seems to be fine while at the same time globalization is too. But really all that modern liberal trade (not socialist) does is widen the market to include areas with cheap labor and cheap natural resources. Why doesn't the same arguments apply locally that apply internationally?

And if influence due to wealth is ok, why aren't we on the coasts who are more educated and wealthier allowed a more proportional vote? After all, it's our money flowing to the flyover states....