Donald trump. what is your take on him?

[Phrazemaster]

Caveat emptor, lots of magical thinking in food supplement category. 

Actually there's a lot of "magical thinking" in the most stringent, double-blind scientific tests. Apparently the placebo effect is so powerful they have to test a drug against it to ensure the drug is more powerful than the "magical thinking" of the participants. Science itself just can't quite get rid of magical thinking, so why should we discount it?

Do you really think we are just a heap of chemicals? In which case, there is no such thing as free-will - we are all chemical robots whose actions are predetermined by our DNA programming and our random interactions with the environment. I don't believe that. And it doesn't account for the myriad cases of spontaneous regression/remission of cancers and every other kind of ailment. "Something" else is at work here, something we may not be able to quantify or understand yet.

And sure, there's corruption everywhere, even in the herbal supplement business. Whenever money changes hands.

But you don't find supplement companies charging $100/pill for something that an herb may do for far far less. Caveat Emptor right back at ya, the wolves are guarding the henhouse here - but how they will howl if you opt for another treatment that cuts off their precious money supply. Then suddenly you are an idiot, maligned, consigned to the relic heap as a backward thinking boob. There's no money in health! In whose interest is it to keep you believing the doc is the only one who knows best, and the last 5K years of herbal/"alternative" treatments are total bunk? (But wait, pssst, we just found a drug, derived from an herb, that will help you! How much $$$ you got? hehehe!).

Call me stupid but I do think there's a remarkable synergy between "Mother Nature" and the beings upon this planet. Whether you feel it's due to adaptation over the millennia a la Darwinism, or something along the lines of an overriding intelligence directing it all, there's some kind of benefit to eating as close to how our ancestors ate as possible. And that includes using whatever plant-based remedies we may discover.

I'm not saying all drugs are bad. I merely question the premise that anything that goes wrong in the body is the result of a chemical mixup - so often the causes have nothing to do with the biology and everything to do with other factors such as stress or emotional reactions - or - eating out of the panoply of foods our ancestors ate.

Modern medicine doesn't even attempt to find the cause of the problems. Their actions are palliative only, and they relegate a search for the cure to their advertising copy only. This ensures a steady supply of customers and a dwindling supply of healthy people.

 

[mattiasNYC]

Do you really think we are just a heap of chemicals? In which case, there is no such thing as free-will - we are all chemical robots whose actions are predetermined by our DNA programming and our random interactions with the environment. I don't believe that.

Actually, as far as I can tell everything points to everything being entirely deterministic. From a physical standpoint I actually don't see how it's not true.  Fortunately for us humans though from a purely practical standpoint that doesn't matter. We perceive "choice" and act as if it's real, so "whatever". (And if the universe is deterministic then our interactions with it aren't random of course)

And it doesn't account for the myriad cases of spontaneous regression/remission of cancers and every other kind of ailment. "Something" else is at work here, something we may not be able to quantify or understand yet.

I think your last point is the key point; we don't understand a lot of human physiology and the universe yet.

I merely question the premise that anything that goes wrong in the body is the result of a chemical mixup - so often the causes have nothing to do with the biology and everything to do with other factors such as stress or emotional reactions - or - eating out of the panoply of foods our ancestors ate.

I'm getting the feeling that you (we?) are having a difference over semantics. The way I see it, an issue with stress for example results in the body changing its chemistry. So, I disagree with you when you seem to imply it has nothing to do with chemistry, but I agree with you that modern health care jumps to treating symptoms in cases such as these. It'd obviously be better to treat the stress that causes the increase in cortisol for example, rather than just try to lower levels by 'brute force'.

What complicates this whole line of thinking though is that chemical imbalances can make it hard to get out of situations that cause chemical imbalances. So can you learn to relax if you're stressed? Is it a solution to first treat stress with medication and learn how to regulate it without before quitting the meds? I think it's somewhat difficult to find a good path here, and it's especially true in a country like the US where health care costs are through the roof yet people aren't healthy in proportion to said costs.

Anyway, I'm rambling....

 

[Phrazemaster]

We're in agreement except over the deterministic point. Then again how would we know?

Well there are too many reports of people having so-called NDE experiences for me to dismiss them all as bunk. That's consciousness outside of a body.


Well-stated and thanks Mattias.

 

[mattiasNYC]

We're in agreement except over the deterministic point. Then again how would we know?

Well, from what I understand the issue with quantum mechanics isn't predictability, but rather the amount of data that goes into a calculation. So, that's just to say that we can predict how things will happen, but they require the correct data at the input stage. Since our universe is so tremendously complex we can never (?) get enough data to actually predict specific events, but we can say that they'd be predictable with sufficient data at the input, which in turn means that it's all deterministic. We're just ignorant of the outcome.

Well there are too many reports of people having so-called NDE experiences for me to dismiss them all as bunk. That's consciousness outside of a body.

But there are also experiments where parts of the brain were stimulated and people had exactly the same experiences, without being in the same "near death" state.  In other words; if we can artificially induce the experience without a person actually being near death, it's reasonable to expect that the NDE experience people report is possible to be due to the same physical state rather than being a "true" "consciousness outside of a body".

Don't worry though, I'm a musician at the core of my soul so I have a much more 'spiritual' view of some experiences than you might think.... so all hope isn't lost yet....

 

[Phrazemaster]

Well, from what I understand the issue with quantum mechanics isn't predictability, but rather the amount of data that goes into a calculation. So, that's just to say that we can predict how things will happen, but they require the correct data at the input stage. Since our universe is so tremendously complex we can never (?) get enough data to actually predict specific events, but we can say that they'd be predictable with sufficient data at the input, which in turn means that it's all deterministic. We're just ignorant of the outcome.

But there are also experiments where parts of the brain were stimulated and people had exactly the same experiences, without being in the same "near death" state.  In other words; if we can artificially induce the experience without a person actually being near death, it's reasonable to expect that the NDE experience people report is possible to be due to the same physical state rather than being a "true" "consciousness outside of a body".

Don't worry though, I'm a musician at the core of my soul so I have a much more 'spiritual' view of some experiences than you might think.... so all hope isn't lost yet....

Seein' a different side a you man! Ha! Cool.

Well ok but just because you can induce this state while a person is awake and alive in their skull doesn't invalidate a similar state when all instruments show the person is completely brain dead. Nada, zilch, zippo - by no means can we detect any activity. The person is for all intents and purposes, dead...

PLUS

People are able to accurately recall "seeing" and "hearing" people and conversations in different rooms, with accuracy, that simply cannot be explained - especially if their brain function is gone.

Speaking of brain dead, what's the latest news on TrumP?

JK I think the guy is pretty smart, but I thought it might be nice to actually say something ever so slightly ON topic lol.

 

[mattiasNYC]

Seein' a different side a you man! Ha! Cool.

I have my moments. The election of Trump infuriates me however, so it's certainly bringing out the worst in me.

Well ok but just because you can induce this state while a person is awake and alive in their skull doesn't invalidate a similar state when all instruments show the person is completely brain dead. Nada, zilch, zippo - by no means can we detect any activity. The person is for all intents and purposes, dead...

PLUS

People are able to accurately recall "seeing" and "hearing" people and conversations in different rooms, with accuracy, that simply cannot be explained - especially if their brain function is gone.

The first problem is that when people say they experienced something it is actually not clear when that happened. It's entirely possible that it happens while the brain is still active, before or after death/revival.

Secondly, I haven't heard of a single experiment or event where it's been verified objectively that these people saw or heard something they "couldn't" have seen or heard. Every single instance I've heard of has been a person saying they had a certain experience, and someone then claiming the truth of that statement, but without evidence. One experiment I'm aware of was where a doctor or nurse placed playing cards in an operating room, not known to the patient, after which the patient was asked about what was different in the room after having described an out-of-body experience. None of the several patients were even aware of the cards' existence.

Speaking of brain dead, what's the latest news on TrumP?

JK I think the guy is pretty smart, but I thought it might be nice to actually say something ever so slightly ON topic lol.

The latest on Trump is that he keeps tweeting.

When Pence went to see Hamilton a fair amount of the audience booed him. Then after the performance the cast made a statement directed towards Pence urging him to work to unite the country and give all people equal rights. Trump's tweets, which you of course can find online, blasted the Hamilton cast for it, as if they insulted Pence, and then demanded they apologize.

He then proceeded to rip on SNL.

So, again, this a person who in his 50's (?) says "Grab them by the pussy", like a teenager would, is insanely petty, and speaks on Twitter on the level of an adolescent. That's the future president of the United States of America.

 

[Phrazemaster]

The first problem is that when people say they experienced something it is actually not clear when that happened. It's entirely possible that it happens while the brain is still active, before or after death/revival.

Actually that's not true. There are many accounts in which the person is aware of conversations that occur during the period in which their brain shows no activity.

Secondly, I haven't heard of a single experiment or event where it's been verified objectively that these people saw or heard something they "couldn't" have seen or heard. Every single instance I've heard of has been a person saying they had a certain experience, and someone then claiming the truth of that statement, but without evidence. One experiment I'm aware of was where a doctor or nurse placed playing cards in an operating room, not known to the patient, after which the patient was asked about what was different in the room after having described an out-of-body experience. None of the several patients were even aware of the cards' existence.

Controlled experiments don't always yield the desired results. Again, there are tons of cases in which the person was aware of things during their supposed death state that they couldn't have known about. A pretty good case is the neurosurgeon who is brain dead for weeks, and has amazing experiences and knows things he could not possibly know.

https://www.amazon.com/Proof-Heaven-Neurosurgeons-Near-Death-Experience/dp/B009UX6NGI

The latest on Trump is that he keeps tweeting.

Wouldn't it be a hoot to have a president who tweets things to people? Wow, what's this world coming to.

When Pence went to see Hamilton a fair amount of the audience booed him. Then after the performance the cast made a statement directed towards Pence urging him to work to unite the country and give all people equal rights. Trump's tweets, which you of course can find online, blasted the Hamilton cast for it, as if they insulted Pence, and then demanded they apologize.

He then proceeded to rip on SNL.

So, again, this a person who in his 50's (?) says "Grab them by the pussy", like a teenager would, is insanely petty, and speaks on Twitter on the level of an adolescent. That's the future president of the United States of America.

He sounds very immature. Let's hope it's his "show" personality or we may be in for a rough 4 years, if he lasts that long.

 

[DaveP]

There are thousands and thousands of them out there on NDE, this one is typical:

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/notable/jayne-smith.html

This one an example of spontaneous remission
http://www.near-death.com/reincarnation/experiences/mellen-thomas-benedict.html

This all makes more sense somehow to me anyway.

DaveP

 

[Phrazemaster]

There are thousands and thousands of them out there on NDE, this one is typical:

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/notable/jayne-smith.html

This one an example of spontaneous remission
http://www.near-death.com/reincarnation/experiences/mellen-thomas-benedict.html

This all makes more sense somehow to me anyway.

DaveP

Those were lovely links Dave, thank-you.

From Donald Trump to perfect everlasting love and perfection...what a thread, what a thread I tell ya!!  ;D

 

[mattiasNYC]

Actually that's not true. There are many accounts in which the person is aware of conversations that occur during the period in which their brain shows no activity.
-----------------------------------
Controlled experiments don't always yield the desired results. Again, there are tons of cases in which the person was aware of things during their supposed death state that they couldn't have known about. A pretty good case is the neurosurgeon who is brain dead for weeks, and has amazing experiences and knows things he could not possibly know.

Well, I'm not going to buy that book and read it, and the reason is that in every single instance I'm aware of for these claims the situation has always been that someone makes the claim of an experience, and claims evidence, yet there has never been objective evidence to support it, evidence that wasn't just objective but objectively verified.

Like I said before, I'm not discounting that people have these experiences, the question is what those experiences really are. Deanna Laney killed her children because she heard god tell her to do so. Who am I to question her experience? Who are you to do so? Yet we all do, and we incarcerate people like that because we judge them to have had a psychotic delusion. Same with demonic possessions. How do we know that they're not telling the truth, that their experiences aren't real?

So there's the experience that people say that they have, which I'm not disputing they have, and then there's the cause of them. We know now that changing the brain on purpose can induce a bunch of different changes in a personality, and also induce NDE. So, since we have evidence of natural causes for these extraordinary experiences but no evidence of supernatural causes the former seems like a reasonable explanation whereas the latter does not.

Now, of course you would argue that such objective evidence exists, and I'm all for learning about it. I won't buy a book, because statistically speaking I've been disappointed 100% of the time someone has put forth evidence of these types of experiences, but I'm willing to read a link IF it provide objective evidence and not only someone saying that they got to know something that they couldn't have known and it was confirmed by someone else, i.e. double hear-say.

Wouldn't it be a hoot to have a president who tweets things to people? Wow, what's this world coming to.

I'm fine with a president tweeting, but a president tweeting should in my opinion have a high standard not only of language but of content. Trump has neither. That's what worries me.

He sounds very immature. Let's hope it's his "show" personality or we may be in for a rough 4 years, if he lasts that long.

He already won the Primary and then the presidential vote, so at this point he should be able to contain himself and change his demeanor. On the one hand I hope he doesn't, because that means my prediction about his nature is right (that he's a narcissistic, possibly psychopathic, habitual liar, etc), yet on the other I hope he does because I'd rather he'd be a good president than not. I actually think we've seen his true personality traits during this time though. It's not a good thing.

 

[Phrazemaster]

I respect your viewpoints Mattias.

Let's hope Trump trumps his past behavior.

 

[mattiasNYC]

wCNN reports on Michael Flynn:

""Look up something called 'the American laws for American courts,'" Flynn said. "I don't know if it's happening up here in Massachusetts, it's happening in other states. I have had people in the media, mainstream media, say, 'oh, that's all a conspiracy, it's a lie.'"
"No, in the state of Florida," he continued. "The state of Florida they have 36 senators at the state level. 36 senators at the state level. 12, of them are Democrats, the Republicans hold the majority in the Florida state senate. All 12 Democrats, all 12 Democrats voted to impose shariah at the local and state level. Now, it was beaten because the Republicans are in charge. I'm telling you, this is 'American laws for America's courts.'"
Flynn didn't respond to a comment request for this story. CNN's KFile reported last week Flynn shared fake news and interacted with figures of the so-called alt-right on Twitter. On "

So, another liar in government.  And there's also this report.

----------------------------------------

In other Trump news US neo-Nazis salute Trump with a raised right arm yelling "Hail Trump". So, with an emboldened domestic neo-Nazi movement, you would think that Trump would address them directly, on his own volition, with vehemence equal to that of equally loathsome movements.

Instead his criticism is more subdued than that of the cast of Hamilton,whose only "crime" was calling for unity and protection of all people.

 

[mattiasNYC]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38057104

 

[DaveP]

Trump has now disavowed them
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38069469
Fortunately.

Looks to me that he is dumping his campaign rhetoric day by day, as he is not going to prosecute Hillary now.

If he carries on like this he will start to lose his demographic before he even takes office.

DaveP

 

[Phrazemaster]

Trump has now disavowed them
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38069469
Fortunately.

Looks to me that he is dumping his campaign rhetoric day by day, as he is not going to prosecute Hillary now.

If he carries on like this he will start to lose his demographic before he even takes office.

DaveP

That's a campaign promise I'm glad to see him break. We don't want our president representing white nazis and kkk.

As for prosecuting Hillary, it would be political (and perhaps literal) suicide.

 

[mattiasNYC]

Trump has now disavowed them
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38069469
Fortunately.

Dave, we should remember however that Trump never explicitly said he was a white-supremacist or any kind of racist. And I think it's likely he isn't one. But here's the thing:

Those groups, the KKK, the recent neo-Nazi group that held a meeting in Washington, other white-supremacists, anti-semites and racists, they somehow got it in their heads that Trump was their man. Now, while you and I can parse his speeches and clearly see he never made clear statements supporting those groups or their views or goals, we can also see he played fast and loose with language in order to win a broader audience.

So, where am I going with this? Well, these people I mention above aren't the ones that are going to sit through an episode of the biased 60-minutes on "liberal news". They aren't going to give credence to the descriptions given by this media. Period. And so if we look at the instances where Trump has commented on this group of people, it's been when he's been asked about it. He's essentially simply said [paraphrased] "Oh, well if people think I said this was ok then they're wrong" and "I would tell people to stop it if they're committing race crimes".

However, what he needs to do as a future president, isn't playing defense with the media and issuing 'throw-away' denouncements when asked, as a future leader of this country, if he really does care about uniting it, then he needs to himself take the initiative and reach out on all media - especially the media that helped elect him - and clearly denounce not just the groups but the ideologies and policies those groups support. And that, is something he hasn't done (to my knowledge).

That the media said "oh, he just denounced it" is a bit silly in context. He did this at a meeting with different news representatives, but they weren't filming it or anything. So anything we hear about his disavowing of these groups is essentially just reporters saying what he said. No doubt they have evidence thereof despite him possibly not allowing recording, but to the alt-right groups I doubt that matters.

So again: He needs to go on TV and Twitter etc and state it clearly. Then I consider it to be an honest effort.

 

[living sounds]

Plant evolution and active plant chemistry is more about them thwarting their natural predators (insects mostly), any beneficial side effect for humans is pretty much accidental.

Broccoli sprouts are one example where their natural protection chemistry appears to be anti-cancer. There is no evolutionary positive feedback loop that involves better survival rates for sprouts from stopping cancer in humans. Stopping insects from eating them OTOH has a practical immediate benefit. In fact the strong chemistry inside broccoli sprouts only comes into full play when the cell walls are broken and the different chemicals comingle together (like from being chewed.. now that's clever).

Not mother nature's wisdom to aid humans, but more practical survival mechanism for the sprouts themselves by not tasting so good to their predators.

So for once we are in complete agreement.

 

[Script]

Trump has now disavowed them
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38069469
Fortunately.

From that article:
"In the video, Richard Spencer, a leader of the "alt-right" movement, told a conference of members that America belongs to white people, whom he described as "children of the sun". "

That's preposterous. Everybody knows that the Japanese are the only children of the sun goddess, with the current emporer being the lastest in an (allegedly) uninterrupted almost 2000-year-long line of direct descendents walking the earth. Anybody can easily read up on that. And what is more, that sun godess's ancestors also created the earth... including the lands commonly called the US today, I'd assume. So hail the emporer and his potent medication

 

[CJ]

"Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is a long-term pattern of abnormal behavior characterized by exaggerated feelings of self-importance, an excessive need for admiration, and a lack of understanding of others' feelings"


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder

 

[mattiasNYC]

Recount Wisconsin.....