Donald trump. what is your take on him?

[mattiasNYC]

Not sure if you're responding to my vaccine comments or to someone else.

That wasn't addressed to you. Sorry if that was unclear.

We can all agree to disagree on certain subjects here, but seriously calling someone "sadly misinformed" after they present evidence devolves into a personal attack. (Not you Mattias)

I know that wasn't for me, but it's not really a personal attack as much as it is presumptuous, unless one knows the person really is sadly misinformed that is.

The truth is you can find mountains of information on both sides of an issue; it comes down to what information you choose to believe.

Watch the documentary Vaxxed. If for no other reason than to give you more fodder for your counter arguments. But you might be surprised.

Gang, do you not get that our hard science is so often politically motivated propaganda? They say science advances one funeral at a time.

Almost every generation uncovers egregious errors in medicine, from blood letting to vaccines. And every era declares itself "right" and acts like it's impervious to falsity or error. That's called hubris.

I don't think you're wrong about a lot of the above, but I think that if you're going to look at history for perspective you'll actually have to concede that despite the above we humans live far longer than ever, we live healthier, and we avoid pandemics to a larger degree - in general.

So, with that said, it's probably worth considering that even if some vaccines would cause an illness the diseases that they're protecting the population from are worse, for that population. It really boils down to whether or not we want individuals risking the spread of something far worse than autism. Autism sucks, but the range of complications that may result as the other illnesses spread are arguably worse, again, for the population.

But perhaps this is fodder for a new thread?...

 

[Phrazemaster]

That wasn't addressed to you. Sorry if that was unclear.

I know that wasn't for me, but it's not really a personal attack as much as it is presumptuous, unless one knows the person really is sadly misinformed that is.

I don't think you're wrong about a lot of the above, but I think that if you're going to look at history for perspective you'll actually have to concede that despite the above we humans live far longer than ever, we live healthier, and we avoid pandemics to a larger degree - in general.

So, with that said, it's probably worth considering that even if some vaccines would cause an illness the diseases that they're protecting the population from are worse, for that population. It really boils down to whether or not we want individuals risking the spread of something far worse than autism. Autism sucks, but the range of complications that may result as the other illnesses spread are arguably worse, again, for the population.

But perhaps this is fodder for a new thread?...

As usual, brilliant response, and I do agree with just about everything. Although if the current trend continues - we are on an exponential curve here - the math shows we'll be at 1 of 2 girls, and 80% of boys will have autism by 2032. That's a health crisis far worse than the measles. Whether it's vaccines or something else, this is a serious issue.

Yes, maybe a new thread.

Thx

 

[DaveP]

Our grandchildren will present their DNA profile before being prescribed drugs, specifically made for their genotype.

Side effects of drugs that affect some but not others are due to differences in DNA sequencing.

Drug companies have started work on different versions of drugs at the present time, but it will be a generation before it can be put into practice.

The "One size fits all" drug will become a thing of the past for future generations.

DaveP

 

[Phrazemaster]

Our grandchildren will present their DNA profile before being prescribed drugs, specifically made for their genotype.

Side effects of drugs that affect some but not others are due to differences in DNA sequencing.

Drug companies have started work on different versions of drugs at the present time, but it will be a generation before it can be put into practice.

The "One size fits all" drug will become a thing of the past for future generations.

DaveP

Very exciting! And disturbing. There's a fundamental assumption at the heart of allopathic medicine: the human body is deficient and requires exotic chemicals (drugs) to right itself.

Allopathic medicine does not  work with the human body--it tries to control it, to suppress symptoms. Indeed it makes the symptoms the disease rather than looking for an underlying cause, figuring out why there's an imbalance, and helping the patient to correct it. Many times it's an error in foods, sleep, stress, lack of exercise, or emotions. When was the last time your doctor asked you how you felt and coped with your life, or even spent more than 5 minutes with you? Nope, he scrawled out a prescription without taking a breath, right? That's because he's the salesperson for a drug company. To a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

But then again what to expect from an industry that sells drugs as its core model.

You're ill? Surprise surprise, you need a drug.

The industry would come crashing down if people were actually healthy most of the time. We have a sickcare system, not a healthcare system.

Herbs and other so-called alternative treatments have a long history of success, yet our system poo-poos and suppresses those treatments.

There's just no money in healthy people.

So yeah, wahoo, designer drugs. I guess my body is deficient in chemicals.

 

[DaveP]

I wasn't really referring to things that are best cured by lifestyle changes.  I was meaning chemotherapy and to a lesser extent vaccines, where there are serious side-effects for some people.

In the early 80's we had a dilemma over the whooping cough vaccine, whether to give it to our 3 kids or not because of some serious side effects that were being reported at the time.  We went to the doctors and he said that the vaccine was being made in the same way as it was 40 years earlier and that there were impurities in it, these were probably causing the trouble.  He also said that the strain of whooping cough prevalent at the time was fairly mild so it was a 50:50 choice for us, he said he could not advise either way.  We took the decision not to vaccinate and the kids got whooping cough but not very badly, a day or two and it was over, although I am aware it is a very dangerous and unpleasant disease to go through.

Up until that time we were not aware that purity was even an issue in vaccine production so we were grateful to have been given some professional advice on which to make a decision.  It's not an easy call to knowingly put something into your kids or withold it when the stakes are so high.

DaveP

 

[Script]

Is there a vaccine that prevents bad politics?

 

[lassoharp]

So what is our take to be, to evolve into, when he appoints Bannon, with all his negative pot-stirring (at very least, giving the largest benefit of doubt)?

Several first hand stories of racial harassment here locally as a result of all this incitement.  Klansmen in robes celebrating in broad daylight on main city streets.  Unthinkable.  A friend's son plays high school soccer, they were at an away game in Charlotte NC (large city) and their African-American center forward was taunted with racial slurs the entire game, students and parents, umpires refused to shut it down.  Again, unimaginable and unthinkable, and we can point a clear finger at where this has come from.

I've been seeing similar here too and there were videos of high school sporting events showing up way back at the end of 2015 showing the same type things.  Total mob mentality.

I'm afraid it's heading to the point of no return.  The low minded are clearly taking the Trump presidency as a call to arms over whatever twisted notion of white power they have swirling in their noggins and they have their crosshairs predictably placed.  I'm afraid 2017 is going to be one ugly year.  I'm seeing major 60's level protests and civil unrest.

His appointees almost make me feel like I'm watching a movie where something is being done that's so predictably obvious and you're thinking "No, this can't be it!  What am I missing here??"  LoL  It's like he's literally lining up a collection of characters that seem like the top shelf sh*t listers - but, of course that's just for one side, and that seems to be the key - the stark polarization.  The media is actually making it worse by questioning the decisions (just makes the angry loonies feel that much more incensed by the "Liberal Media Bias" they see as tormenting and persecuting them.)

Here's a Bannon quote from CNN

"The ex-Breitbart executive, who serves as Trump's chief strategist for the new administration, told The Hollywood Reporter that "darkness is good."
"Dick Cheney. Darth Vader. Satan. That's power. It only helps us when they (liberals) get it wrong. When they're blind to who we are and what we're doing," he said in an interview published Friday, his first outside of Breitbart since the election. "


It's also interesting that during his most recent 60 min interview he clearly looked at the camera and said (actually repeated at the urging of Leslie Stahl)  "Stop it!"  regarding the protesting and racial slurs.

Well it hasn't worked and probably won't.  Once you help push something off a cliff, it's in gravity's hands, not yours.

 

[micaddict]

Dr. King had a dream.

More than half a century ago.

It was my birth year.

 

[living sounds]

"Herbs" are just a delivery method for chemicals in an unpurified, badly controlled format.  If there are active ingrediants in them they can be identified, purified, tested scientifically and administered correctly.

What proponents of homeopathy, anti-vaccination, supplements etc.  don't get is that these are vessels for unscrupulous people to make a lot of money, too.  With a lot less oversight and standards and hardly any time and effort going into testing for safety and efficacy.  And they often stand in the way of treatments that actually work.

Don't get me wrong, there is a lot of ground for rightfully criticising "big pharma", insurance companies, producers of chemicals etc., but it needs to be based on science and facts. And the bigger picture. Improvements don't come from fighting windmills. And daemonizing a bad actor while falling for another, worse one, is no good.

 

[DaveP]

The media is actually making it worse by questioning the decisions (just makes the angry loonies feel that much more incensed by the "Liberal Media Bias" they see as tormenting and persecuting them.)

Just read that Bloomington Indiana is renaming Good Friday to make it more inclusive. :

This kind of crap was tried in the UK some time back.  The plan by local councils with a large Muslim population was to rename Christmas as "Winterval".  Fortunately it was killed by the Muslims who said that they loved Christmas!

This  nonsense of trying to be politically correct on issues that bother no-one is what gives grist to the Trump mill.  but I suspect that this is more of a humanist agenda than a democratic agenda.

DaveP

 

[mattiasNYC]

Up until that time we were not aware that purity was even an issue in vaccine production so we were grateful to have been given some professional advice on which to make a decision.  It's not an easy call to knowingly put something into your kids or withold it when the stakes are so high.

DaveP

Well said Dave, and I hope that we indeed can soon get to personalized medication. I actually think there's a bit of a bridge there to personalized non-medication treatments as well, as I fully believe that a lot of what we go through, a lot of illnesses and symptoms, are actually due to our lifestyle of which stress is a major concern. So, I totally agree with you.

My only concern is that we will tear society apart even further because these new treatments because of our system are expensive and thus mainly for the rich until it hopefully makes its way down to us normal people.

 

[mattiasNYC]

James Mattis leading candidate for defense secretary

"Actually it's quite fun to fight them, you know. It's a hell of a hoot," Mattis said, prompting laughter from some military members in the audience. "It's fun to shoot some people. I'll be right up there with you. I like brawling.

"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil," Mattis said. "You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them."

While I can sympathize with getting rid of misogynists, I can't shake the feeling that the new leadership of this country is made up of psychopaths. Nobody who is normal should take pleasure in killing other human beings, regardless of whether or not it's the lesser of two evils.

 

[DaveP]

While I can sympathize with getting rid of misogynists, I can't shake the feeling that the new leadership of this country is made up of psychopaths. Nobody who is normal should take pleasure in killing other human beings, regardless of whether or not it's the lesser of two evils.

From an Historical perspective.
No need to get too het up about that kind of spiel to soldiers, if you read a history of the Americans in WW2 (Rick Atkinsons Trilogy is a very good read) you will find that generals routinely gave that kind of speech to convert  the GI's from a peacetime mentality to a ruthless warlike mentality.  Patton famously said "an army that can't f**k , can't fight".  Patton was described as a danger in peacetime but an asset in wartime.

DaveP

 

[Phrazemaster]

"Herbs" are just a delivery method for chemicals in an unpurified, badly controlled format.  If there are active ingrediants in them they can be identified, purified, tested scientifically and administered correctly.

What proponents of homeopathy, anti-vaccination, supplements etc.  don't get is that these are vessels for unscrupulous people to make a lot of money, too.  With a lot less oversight and standards and hardly any time and effort going into testing for safety and efficacy.  And they often stand in the way of treatments that actually work.

Don't get me wrong, there is a lot of ground for rightfully criticising "big pharma", insurance companies, producers of chemicals etc., but it needs to be based on science and facts. And the bigger picture. Improvements don't come from fighting windmills. And daemonizing a bad actor while falling for another, worse one, is no good.

You make good points.

However when I talk about herbs, I don't mean some straggly plant I grew in the backyard. If you've bought an herb in the last 15 years you'd see stringent quality control and encapsulation ensuring consistent and repeatable delivery of the active ingredients. These people know what they are doing.

Also, many times an herb is potent and has no side effects due to the synergism of all the ingredients, whereas a drug made from an isolated herb extract can have dangerous side effects. Capsaicin is just one example.

Mother Nature, it would seems, still has much to teach us.

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[Phrazemaster]

James Mattis leading candidate for defense secretary

"Actually it's quite fun to fight them, you know. It's a hell of a hoot," Mattis said, prompting laughter from some military members in the audience. "It's fun to shoot some people. I'll be right up there with you. I like brawling.

"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil," Mattis said. "You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them."

While I can sympathize with getting rid of misogynists, I can't shake the feeling that the new leadership of this country is made up of psychopaths. Nobody who is normal should take pleasure in killing other human beings, regardless of whether or not it's the lesser of two evils.

Psychopaths have been running the country for quite some time.

Somehow our political system promotes wolves in sheep's clothing.

 

[micaddict]

Somehow our political system promotes wolves in sheep's clothing.

Or the other way around?

 

[Phrazemaster]

Or the other way around?

Touché.

That's obviously the real truth!

 

[living sounds]

However when I talk about herbs, I don't mean some straggly plant I grew in the backyard. If you've bought an herb in the last 15 years you'd see stringent quality control and encapsulation ensuring consistent and repeatable delivery of the active ingredients. These people know what they are doing.

They know what they are doing, which is how to make money.

"There has been a recent slew of studies showing how poor the quality control in the supplement industry is.  I reviewed many of these studies here: Supplements often contain contaminants, unlisted fillers, and even use fillers to substitute for the alleged active ingredients. You may think you are getting Gingko, but in fact you’re getting alfalfa. Some of those substitutes may cause allergies. Supplements often have drug-drug interactions. Ingredient levels vary incredibly. Bioavailability is anyone’s guess. Supplements also often illegally and secretly contain real drugs."

http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/regulating-supplements/


As for synergism, maybe, but maybe not. Interactions are incredibly complex. "Mother nature knows best" implies there being an underlying system or even plan on how plant chemicals are composed in regards to mamalian (=human) reaction to these chemical compositions. This may even be the case once in a while, especially for herbs cultivated by humans for millenia, but generally other evolutionary factors are responsible.

 

[JohnRoberts]

They know what they are doing, which is how to make money.

"There has been a recent slew of studies showing how poor the quality control in the supplement industry is.  I reviewed many of these studies here: Supplements often contain contaminants, unlisted fillers, and even use fillers to substitute for the alleged active ingredients. You may think you are getting Gingko, but in fact you’re getting alfalfa. Some of those substitutes may cause allergies. Supplements often have drug-drug interactions. Ingredient levels vary incredibly. Bioavailability is anyone’s guess. Supplements also often illegally and secretly contain real drugs."

http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/regulating-supplements/


As for synergism, maybe, but maybe not. Interactions are incredibly complex. "Mother nature knows best" implies there being an underlying system or even plan on how plant chemicals are composed in regards to mamalian (=human) reaction to these chemical compositions. This may even be the case once in a while, especially for herbs cultivated by humans for millenia, but generally other evolutionary factors are responsible.

I have been boycotting this thread but this is about health (IMO more important than politics). Can't you guys stay on topic?  ;D

Plant evolution and active plant chemistry is more about them thwarting their natural predators (insects mostly), any beneficial side effect for humans is pretty much accidental.

Broccoli sprouts are one example where their natural protection chemistry appears to be anti-cancer. There is no evolutionary positive feedback loop that involves better survival rates for sprouts from stopping cancer in humans. Stopping insects from eating them OTOH has a practical immediate benefit. In fact the strong chemistry inside broccoli sprouts only comes into full play when the cell walls are broken and the different chemicals comingle together (like from being chewed.. now that's clever).

Not mother nature's wisdom to aid humans, but more practical survival mechanism for the sprouts themselves by not tasting so good to their predators.

------

Yes plenty of examples of poor QC for even FDA regulated drugs. Supplement industry is quite a bit faster and looser. Caveat emptor, lots of magical thinking in food supplement category. 

JR

 

[hodad]

Just read that Bloomington Indiana is renaming Good Friday to make it more inclusive. :

This kind of crap was tried in the UK some time back.  The plan by local councils with a large Muslim population was to rename Christmas as "Winterval".  Fortunately it was killed by the Muslims who said that they loved Christmas!

DaveP

One thing that was rather common in certain parts of the US a while ago was the rebranding of Halloween (one example that sticks in my head is renaming it "funny hat day") because fundamentalist Christians didn't want schools celebrating a satanic holiday.  It may still be going on in some places.