Electrolytic vs film caps for smaller values.

[user 41968]

I think the answer for the OP lies at the Nichicon website: NICHICON CORPORATION | Product & Technology

It appears that for most radial lead aluminum electrolytic caps anything smaller than an 8 mm dia case size is being discontinued. That essentially wipes out smaller/lower voltage values.

Gone are 2 mm and 2.5 mm lead-spaced caps.
The "lowest" voltage 10 µF available in the UVR-series will be 160V and it has 3.5 mm lead spacing.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

The "lowest" voltage 10 µF available in the UVR-series will be 160V and it has 3.5 mm lead spacing.

There's a 10uF 16V in 5mm diameter and 2mm pitch.

 

[user 41968]

There's a 10uF 16V in 5mm diameter and 2mm pitch.

Abbey - Any part number with a grey "*" in front of it, like the 10/16 example, is being discontinued.

Valued marked with an ※ in the dimension table are scheduled to be discontinued and are not recommended for new designs. https://www.nichicon.co.jp/english/products/pdfs/e-uvr.pdf

10 5×11 0.20 4.8 3 50 ※UVR1C100MDD

EDIT: Just checked Digi-Key for the above 10/16V and I receive this:

Last Time Buy Date: 3/31/2023

UVR in 16V is only (going to be) available in values 330 µF to 10,000 µF.

Vishay however are still offering 5 and 6.3 mm diameter cases with 2.5 mm lead spacing.

https://www.vishay.com/en/capacitors/aluminum/

 

[abbey road d enfer]

Abbey - Any part number with a grey "*" in front of it, like the 10/16 example, is being discontinued.

OK, didn't notice it, but Nichicon is not the only manufacturer of lytic caps.
Their decision is probably based on internal policy, not on a paradigm change.

 

[user 41968]

I just received some 470/35V UVR Nichicon from Mouser that had been on back-order for a year.

Edited my previous post to include Nichicon last time buy dates of 3/31/2023 at Digi-Key.

A good substitute for the UVP and UES bipolar electrolytics is needed. Vishay do not have them.

Checking Mouser in 10/50 bipolar I find Panasonic and United Chemi-Con in stock.

 

[Ricardus]

Checking Mouser in 10/50 bipolar I find Panasonic and United Chemi-Con in stock.

Panasonic is always a fine choice, as is United, Wurth, and Kemet.

 

[JW]

What about possible antenna effects of physically larger caps?

For example, I've not done any tests, but I replaced some tiny .47uF tantalums with big 2X1 inch MKP Wimas. I get nervous sometimes that they might be picking up something . . . .

The "combine input" cap at the input to the master bus channel here:

 

[JohnRoberts]

This is perhaps a natural evolution. I recall watching axial electrolytic caps go EOL (end of life) last century.

I would speculate that aluminum electrolytic will remain popular for large reservoir cap applications.

JR

 

[CJ]

the Elna SILMIC's are going fast if you are into Marantz etc.

look for boutique lytic cap makers and evilbay cap hustlers in about 5 years,

maybe people will start rolling their own and use whale oil for the dialectic fluid.

we made wax paper/aluminum foil caps in electronics 1 class.

along with resistors from #2 lead pencil scribbled on binder paper and then set on fire with clip leads from the Heathkit 300 volt power supply to illustrate the I^2R law, , a feat which would probably not be allowed in schools today without some form of written permission from the principle, the fire marshall and the parents.

 

[inkster]

In a high impedance tube circuit there is a preferred direction to install a film cap which is why old caps have outside foil marked, outside foil should always go to the lower impedance side of the circuit. Only a few companies mark outside foil these days and they tend to be $$$ so you have to determine it yourself.
It's a big deal in RF circuits but also makes a difference in any tube circuit minimizing RF, transformer hum and other stray junk from the outside world.

 

[JohnRoberts]

The polystyrene caps I used lots of back in my kit business had a band to mark the outer foil wrap end. The outer wrap end gets grounded or connected to low impedance node when possible.

JR

 

[FIX]

Film caps use a film as the insulator. Electrolytic use a liquid based insulator. The newer ones last a lot longer, but film is stable and electrolytics do tend to evaporate over time.

I usually bypass a large electrolytic with a small NPO ceramic if I’m looking for hifi, but in most cases it’s not noticed…

 

[CJ]

i wondered why all the lytics i pull measure about 20 to 30% above their stamped value.

i think i figured it out.

when you wind string around your finger, eventually it will turn blue and fall off if you get enough turns on there,

well inside a cap is a coil of foil. there must be pressure from the winding that vectors toward the center axis. as the cap ages, the fluid is forced out of the space between the plates by the winding pressure. as a result, the plates get close together and the capacitance goes up. that is, until enough fluid goes away due to installation near a heat source, at which point the capacitance goes back down.

this increase in capacitance has been measured to the tune of thousands of capacitors, a strange curiosity of measuring them before discard. probably due to some OCD character defect, we are making progress along these lines as we quit cutting them open with the red handles Klein's in order to see how much fluid is left by squeezing them with the yellow handled needle nose.

Elna's, by far, lose the least juice. Chemi Con being the worst.

 

[Stevie342000]

The polystyrene caps I used lots of back in my kit business had a band to mark the outer foil wrap end. The outer wrap end gets grounded or connected to low impedance node when possible.

JR

Mr Carlsons Lab on YouTube has some equipment that you can build or a way to determine which is the right way round to put your capacitor in a circuit to get around the markings they used to put on the capacitors. It's been a while since I have watched that video.

 

[CJ]

sometime they write it on the caps, note low z side is sometimes the power supply/plate circuit>

 

[warpie]

Their decision is probably based on internal policy, not on a paradigm change.

I really do hope so.

 

[Mr. Moscode]

Film beats lytics in the audio path situations 99% of the time. I just recently did a mod on a bootstrap circuit going from 2 1mfd film to 2 10mfd 'lytics and the high end got really nasty. I put in 2 4.7 mks (polyester) and that fixed the rattiness.

Dielectric preferences range from Teflon, polypropylene MKP (space permitting), polystyrene, polyester MKS, to oil filled paper with silver or gold plated windings. Each has their pluses and minuses. Size v. capacitance & voltage, electrical resonances in and out of band, electrochemical changes over time, internal charge migration, acoustic resonances in the audio band, dielectric flex.

@warpie:
I'm beginning to take offense at the jabs at hi end audio, like "audiophoolery". It reeks of ignorance. The audiophiles want great sound, some are buying your recordings, some will be reviewing both the content and the engineering on much better speakers and amps that I've found in most studios. I've had my feet in both worlds for the last 45 years in NYC. I also have found that having an open mind and ears will make one better at their art. This is ART! Right?

Most everyone here is after a Neumann U47 mic for a lot less than the original. That tells me you're in the game to get better sound. Period. Same as the audiophiles. Please give it a rest.

That said, experiment, do listening tests, do distortion tests, read up on how caps are spec'ed, dissipation factor (losses), resonances, etc. Trust your ears. If it sounds good, it is good. If not, go fix it. You won't be the first to go down this road worth taking.

Thank you,
MM

 

[Mr. Moscode]

sometime they write it on the caps, note low z side is sometimes the power supply/plate circuit>

View attachment 101515

Sometimes they want to identify the most outer winding.

 

[soapfoot]

This feels like risky speculation, but I’ve lately begun to wonder whether some of the sub-optimal qualities (e.g. distortion) of tantalum and electrolytic caps in signal-carrying circuits may in fact be part of the (desired) sound of some old gear.

It seems as though so many people want to keep the carbon composition resistors (which can theoretically add tiny amounts of distortion), but lose the tantalum and aluminum electrolytic caps (which… can theoretically add tiny amounts of distortion).

It seems a *bit* difficult to square this. Much classic gear—from the Pultec MEQ-5 to the LA-2A (and beyond)—have electrolytics and even class-2 ceramics as coupling caps. Many of the much-revered Ampex tape machines are full of tantalum caps. Few people are paying the exorbitant prices this gear commands and then “improving” it by swapping those caps.

I did change all the tantalums in an AG-440B with MKT and aluminum electrolytic once. The sound did appear to change a bit, but I didn’t control the experiment.

In any case, how do we decide that one distortion-adding component gives “euphonic coloration” but another is bad and should be avoided?

 

[dmp]

I just built a fuzz tone pedal and compared a Panasonic FC electrolytic to a WIMA MKS and preferred the electrolytic. I didn't expect to. MKP wasn't going to fit. And the uF wasn't critical, just avoiding a low end rolloff. In some circuits you can hear a difference. Not better, it's a preference, the character of the sound is sometimes different (in my experience).
Electrolytics are limited vs film as they want a voltage difference on the sides. If the circuit doesn't have a voltage difference you need to order BP and then I would go for film unless the uF is really high