[FEELER] unmarked Alctron donor microphones

[chunger]

I clicked on the poll but quick question will the U67/87'sh fit one of Gustav's G7 boards? (I know for a fact the HST-11a is a bit too short.)

According to my dial calipers on my SYT-5 sample, 4.495 inches is the absolute maximum size PCB that can be fit into the SYT-5 chassis.  This leaves no space for wires at the bottom of the PCB.

From my printout of the Gyraf G7 PCB, the length is 4.740 inches.  The SYT-5 is conclusively NOT long enough to fit Gustav's currently available G7 PCB.  A point to point build or a new PCB would have to be laid out in order to fit the project into this donor body.

 

[Ptownkid]

Ok...I'm a little lost here. Regardless of how the situation has occurred, you have been informed of the issue of selling Chuck's design but are still going to proceed? I'm not placing any blame as I believe that you did not know...but now you do.

 

[HellfireStudios]

It has been noted that fault should be placed on the seller. Money was "liquid" before chunger was ever notified. If they were under intellectual property law, they shouldn't be available on the seller's website.
Don't get me wrong, if I were in ChuckD's shoes I'd be enraged, but my anger would be directed at those at fault (the seller), not an unknowing consumer. Even the little guy has to cover his *ss.

-James-

 

[chunger]

Ok...I'm a little lost here. Regardless of how the situation has occurred, you have been informed of the issue of selling Chuck's design but are still going to proceed? I'm not placing any blame as I believe that you did not know...but now you do.

Hello Ptownkid,

Currently, I lack many pieces of pertinent information and do not have open, safe, and reasonable lines of communication in which to initiate direct resolution.  What I am dealing with are public accusations against my character and ethics escalating to a call for the community at large to stand together and unite against me personally in response to a genuine effort to bring some new DIY options to the table.

In my dealings with other members of this community with whom I  have had serious disagreements in regards to business ethics, we have taken the issue offline and discussed directly at length until the facts, reasons, motivations, actions, and final positions from both sides are mutually understood with clarity.  Even in cases where no mutually agreeable resolution is reached, I can say with certainty that with other prominent members of this forum, at least the manner in which we interacted about the issues were mutually upstanding.  It is not the case in this matter.

With zero direct communication and an increasingly angry and escalating other party,  for my part, the only action I have taken thus far is to postpone the posting of my white market thread until I knew stock was 100% sold from ChuckD's webstore.  This is all pretty bare minimum, and probably of little to no consolation given the level of emotion coming through the posts, but at least he is not currently floating a large non-liquid stock of product that can be of immediate financial danger.

 

[Ptownkid]

Please realise that message forums do not communicate tone, and I am simply trying to get information...

Here is a simple question...have you asked the manufacturer if the body is Chuck's design? What did they say?

It seems to me, and I'm sure I don't know everything, that it is a pretty simple process to get a conclusive answer to this question, and that there's been plenty of time in which to accomplish that. It is certainly not fair for people to be attacking your character IF you are making an attempt to do the right thing, but thus far nothing has happened...

I am not defending the manner in which it's been dealt with in any way...

 

[chunger]

Please realise that message forums do not communicate tone, and I am simply trying to get information...

Here is a simple question...have you asked the manufacturer if the body is Chuck's design? What did they say?

It seems to me, and I'm sure I don't know everything, that it is a pretty simple process to get a conclusive answer to this question, and that there's been plenty of time in which to accomplish that. It is certainly not fair for people to be attacking your character IF you are making an attempt to do the right thing, but thus far nothing has happened...

I am not defending the manner in which it's been dealt with in any way...

The question was asked point blank to ShuaiYin electronics at the beginning phases of negotiations whether this microphone (SYT-5) was designed by another US company because we do not want to run into any conflicts or other entanglements.  The answer received from ShuaiYin was that this microphone is for OEM and was designed by in-house engineers with decades of experience.

 

[Ptownkid]

So the question becomes...who is lying?

 

[Matador]

So the question becomes...who is lying?

I seriously doubt anyone is lying here. 

I suspect what happened here (and very typical with Chinese OEM's):  they took the basic ideas and converted them into one of their standard product lines.  It a way for them to recoup their tooling costs for smaller runs.  This compete mike is now open to anyone who wants to order one anywhere in the world.

So in effect:  everyone is "right".  This is part and parcel of doing business with Chinese OEM's.  Releasing a design for production in Shanghai is essentially the same as open sourcing the product to everyone.  The only way to combat this is to essentially buy the tooling on their behalf, at which point one can better control what that tooling produces...however this is obviously out of the reach of the small DIY'er.

 

[baadc0de]

So, I guess we can expect Apex, Nady, etc.. to be releasing U67-like mikes from this design? Whoa.. It really would suck to be the guy to throw in the R&D and then this..

 

[chunger]

So, I guess we can expect Apex, Nady, etc.. to be releasing U67-like mikes from this design? Whoa.. It really would suck to be the guy to throw in the R&D and then this..

I highly doubt this will happen not because they are not able to, but because this microphone carries a higher base cost than the Apex and Nady target market.  Stellar CM-6 and perhaps a couple other $500-$1000 retail priced, microphones will likely appear from smaller companies that seek better out-of-box performance.

 

[micaddict]

Stellar's new CM-7 will have this body. The prototype was shown on Gearslutz.

BTW, both the CM-6 and CM-5 are below $500.

 

[chunger]

Sorry. . .my mistake regarding the Stellar models.  Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Ptownkid]

Ok...let's look at this from another angle...why would you intentionally decide to order a product that another long time, respected member of this COMMUNITY is already carrying? The fact that Chuck helped design this product in the first place is just an additional reason why this is totally and utterly less than cool. I remember a time when there used to be a level of honour and respect between members here.

 

[HellfireStudios]

What we all have been saying is the Chinese OEM is to blame. Had there been any international intellectual property laws that were being broken, we would have heard about a cease and desist sent from Cathedral Pipes' lawyers. If those laws aren't applicable in this situation, if legal ownership of the design is under the OEM, or if ChuckD doesn't have a lawyer to turn to make sure he isn't getting screwed now or in the future than these things will happen. Now in Chunger's defense most people who do groupbuys don't make a habit out of it (it seems like a time-consuming pain to me). So, if the OEM were to be held accountable in this dispute, only one extra shipment (Chunger's) would make it out of China. If the OEM is allowed to sell this body without legal issues, than the design is up for grabs for the entire world (the Stellar CM-7 is a good example).

Stellar CM-7 pics are here: http://www.gearslutz.com/board/low-end-theory/582472-stellar-cm6-clips-17.html

Note to self: Don't let China build my designs, or they won't be my designs anymore. Why do you think so many Chinese designs have a Neumann heritage? Because Neumann taught a few of them how to build mics. Now they build most mics with U-67 or U-89 type capsules in them. Neumann didn't tell every factory in China, but word and tooling got around...

If this was a legal issue, it should have been dealt with via lawyers. If ChuckD is without legal representation, then he may be up crap creek without a paddle. I'll say it again. The little guy still has to cover his butt.

-James-

 

[dmp]

Chunger,
I would just like to say that I am sorry for the personal attacks and insulting language you faced from a "long time, respected member of this COMMUNITY"
Those posts have now been deleted but I was disappointed that they were up for so long.
This was clearly a violation of the forum rules.
Dan

4. You will find that the members of this forum are incredibly courteous and respectful of each other, so please reciprocate those gestures. Leave the Flame-war mentality at another forum.  Personal attacks as well as general hateful comments (regarding race, religion, gender, ***, etc...) will not be tolerated.

 

[Ptownkid]

I will agree with that...

 

[Matador]

Absolutely agreed.  Let's all build some mikes!

 

[dandeurloo]

I know Advanced Audio uses the same body for there CM67SE's.  They have for many months because I got my mic at least that long ago, before the bodies showed up on the forum anywhere.  My guess is that company in China is lying.  They have a habit of not caring about who's design is who's and who they sell to.  They just sell stuff to anyone and half the time steal designs.  We all know this to be the case so I would be inclined to put the blame of this awkward problem on them.

I have a mic I can take a picture if you need proof that they are being sold to a number of companies and probably are in there OEM catalogs.


Again I think this sucks because both ChuckD and Chunger have been very helpful to the community for a long time.  Sucks to see this happening at all. 

My 2 cents

EDIT: 
I added a photo of my CM67 next to my CM87.  That way you can see the body size.  BTW, these are nice mics.  Definitely worth checking out.

 

[kidvybes]

...I've been lurking on these DIY U67 kit threads for some time now, and I thought this might be an appropriate time to chime in on this thread, in respect to the issue of this particular U67-style body from China...

...I am very familiar with this U67-style body as I was asked my opinion on the SYT-5 body/headbasket design almost 2 years ago...that model, as far as I can remember was introduced to the ShuaiYin line in mid-2010...I was sent pictures of the production sample by Peter Bloch of Stellar in January 2011, as he was considering converting his CM-6 tube mic to that body style...the CM-6 originally was introduced and remains in a more U47-style body/headbasket format...Peter has since decided to use that U67-style body for a newer addition to the Stellar line, as mentioned above, the CM-7 tube microphone...

...as far as anyone claiming to have "developed" that body, I can imagine the only detail that has been altered (from the pics I received) is the addition of a third slot to accommodate a body-mounted polar-pattern switch...other than that, the SYT-5 is, to the best of my knowledge, an OEM design that has been in the line for more than 2 years...anyone who is capable of meeting the manufacturer's minimum order quantity can purchase that product...and as well, if quantities are substantial enough, the factory can modify the OEM product to fulfill a customer's particular need (in this case the 3rd switch cutout)...

...it would appear to me that Chunger did nothing wrong in purchasing an OEM product from the manufacturer's website by fulfilling the factory's minimum quantity...any one of us are free to do so...as a matter of fact, I think he's showing his support for this type of DIY project by doing so...IMHO, any blame being aimed at him for doing so seems very unfair...just my .02c

 

[kidvybes]

...here's an additional pic (sent to me in Jan. 2011)...