Hell exists

[boji]

talk in riddles

Good poems often improve over time, and radiate beyond the shell of the author. Otherwise it is blasé poetry.

If you want people to hear your 'good news' you can start by not telling them they are wrong. Leave a door open in everything you say when arguing for something heavy and possibly dangerous to their worldview. This is a kindness that falls in line with the christ archetype (in addition to sacrifice).

Edit: This is how I interpret the poem.

 

[bluebird]

Hi Desol,

I've thought more about this. I think you might have it backwards. Your reason for accepting Jesus as your personal savior is because of these NDE testimonials that have scared you into thinking there is a hell. But that is not real Faith. That is a reaction to hearsay. It would have been better to  have had faith in the Bible or Jesus regardless of someones horror story. Being saved seems pretty conditional so It might be too late for you. Thats the thing, how do you know your following the rules correctly. ISIS are following the rules to a TEE but we all know they are not doing the right thing. But how do we know? How do we know what are the right set of rules?

I guess you can "just know" but maybe you don't.
You have to admit an agnostic man like myself is a lot braver than a believer, at least I have the balls to admit I don't know for sure and take a chance on truth rather than hearsay. ;D

I mean at least DaveP had a vision, your doing this based on You Tube, Lol....Sorry not making fun, its just really silly.

 

[desol]

Hi Desol,

I've thought more about this. I think you might have it backwards. Your reason for accepting Jesus as your personal savior is because of these NDE testimonials that have scared you into thinking there is a hell. But that is not real Faith.

I agree with you that that is not real Faith, but the message is being sent for a purpose. Jesus won't listen to a sinner for a while, until He sees you trying. After a while you start to feel something inside of you and you start to see your sins in a very real way...but this is just the beginning and the danger doesn't end. The NDE experiences, which I found truth in, are sent for a very real reason. Trust your heart.

John 15:1-15

 

[bluebird]

Alright man, I know your going through something, and although you are set on this new direction, something deep inside is screaming "prove me wrong".  That is why this post exists. You respect your friends here as some of the most intelligent people you know. I know I do. Some part of you is looking for holes. Some of us are giving them to you. Some of us are reaffirming your beliefs.

At the end of the discussion you will be more steadfast or there will be doubts, but this is a process playing out for a "very real reason". Maybe I am the devil testing your faith...Naw, I'm just  a dude who has gone through a lot of searching and lived a lot of life and read a lot of stuff and ended up dumbfounded. Just looking for more people to join my club.

 

[59flame]

i absolutely agree with desol. There is a change. That realization and seeing your  sinful life differently is just an awakening to the goodness of God and the dirtiness of fallen man. It can be triggered by many different things as God works in mysterious ways.  Growing  in that everyday  it just gets more and more divine as you really begin to get what his love really means.

 

[bluebird]

And the only condition is that....accepting...... All of the other things are a process and, nobody is perfect so, Jesus took/ takes the blame . Like Dave mentioned....a free pass so to speak... The other things fall into place almost like breathing..... But we all need to catch our breath every now and then, enter grace.....

At least that's my understanding..... I'd love for someone to prove me wrong because this is way too simple......

I LOVE the simple explanations. And my dinner buddy was great at explaining things. It was so beautiful and simple. And that is why I waited for a real feeling, a real sign. Something to prove my rational mind wrong.  I kept my heart open and only the world filled it. So here I am, out in the cold, being brave...

Love you Blue!!

Love you too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[boji]

dirtiness of fallen man

I take issue with this. This is an outmoded paradigm to live by, because for the faithless / those of competing faiths, it does not promote peace.

Understand I'm not saying there isn't chaos lurking in the hearts of man. I'm just saying this is old testament, old moral codes where the stick needed to be big to establish order.  It is good to think of the ideas of man (we won't get into gnosis) as evolutionary thought, progressing from lower orders towards the divine. We don't need to talk about earth vs heaven either to see the importance of this for our future children.

 

[59flame]

I take issue with this. This is an outmoded paradigm to live by, because for the faithless / those of competing faiths, it does not promote peace.

Understand I'm not saying there isn't chaos lurking in the hearts of man. I'm just saying this is old testament, old moral codes where the stick needed to be big to establish order.  It is good to think of the ideas of man (we won't get into gnosis) as evolutionary thought, progressing from lower orders towards the divine. We don't need to talk about earth vs heaven either to see the importance of this for our future children.

This could be more for believers then non believers. this is why these conversations are difficult with a mixed group of believers and non believers once you move out further than  John 3:16  Here is new testament teaching from the book of Romans  and applies to us who call ourselves believers who were born again into christ. And we all do fall short as believers of course  i do as well, but are we called to stay there and use grace to comfort us in our sin? No we are to edify and build eachother up with truth.
ROMANS  6
What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

Slaves to Righteousness
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

 

[Script]

I generally don't prefer to talk in riddles, but I'll try here:

"Dickinson's attitude toward spiritual matters was more complex than [...]

Interesting choice of poet to underline faith / believe.

Emily Dickinson did indeed keep the form of Chanted Prayers for her poems, showing in the metre and rhyme scheme. But among the almost 1800 poems she wrote throughout her lifetime, one can hardly find a single one that fully affirms and embraces (Christian) faith. There are very few outrageously ambiguous ones, but not a single one that fully defends faith. Odd isn't it?

Most of the time there is one single twist in the length of a line, in the rhyme scheme, alongside very subtle choices of words, elipses etc etc that (indeed often hidden deep inside much like in a riddle) makes the entire thing (poem & religious belief) fall to pieces. Interestingly, Dickinson embraces and even celebrates (much like in a prayer song) this unknown and even uncanny that a world without a God, a world without the safety net of religious faith, of which she had more than an inkling, was bringing.

Dickinson was on the verge to modernism after all, and in many poems she clearly crossed that line. Maybe it also frightened her. As a matter of fact, during most of her life, she hardly ever left the house !! But I understand that to have been rather caused by the fact that the entire community she lived in consisted of firm believers and avid church goers --  and she most certainly would have been the more than 'odd one out'.

Dickinson wrote about (Christian) faith showing serious cracks. And what revealed itself beyond (like 'light'), namely a world without the affirmative nature and 'safety net' of faith -- had better to be told in a 'slant' way. -- Opposite of the interpretation above.

-----

Recommendation -- to anyone interested in Christian faith:

(1) Read the Tanakh after learning Biblical Hebrew (to get the original).
(2) Add the Apocrypha and the Kumran scrolls to you reading list (to put things into perspective).
(3) Put aside Nietzsche and re-read William James 'Varieties', cos in some experiments (different book though) he was almost a precursor to what we call neurology today). James is a true eye-opener and full of light -- puns intended.

Apart from that:

-- Can't argue taste, experience and faith. --

Peace to all.  8)

 

[Script]

I was fortunate one time (just out of the blue) to have my love/ any feeling for music and any sound totally wiped away from my mind..not able to explain it really.....birds, the air through the trees, distant cars, kids playing, music inside playing............no feeling at all....I could hear them still..... just no feeling....It was terrible..

Buddhists call that 'one foot into nirvana'. It happens often during meditation. Can be frightening at the beginning, but will give way to relief and even bliss (both of the latter are not nirvana though)

 

[DaveP]

I think you are all on the right track.

I think that God loves diversity, we are all different in lots of ways and we all respond to different messages and messengers.
None of that matters to God as long as it brings you to Him.

In my keep it simple post, I used broad brush strokes, but the key is really understanding that we all fall short in one way or another, the standard is just too high and our lives have always been too difficult to achieve constant perfection.

I remember being around seven and trying to live a perfect day without doing anything remotely wrong, I think I made it to around 10.00 am.  It is our remorse and realisation of our hopelessness that Jesus responds to, it is that simple.

When He died on the cross for our sins, it was the only time that he had felt separation from His Father, He basically took the place of anyone who believes He died for them.  He paid a price for you and you now belong to Him,  It doesn't cost you anything so it is technically a free pass, it does cost your pride though and that can be too high a price for some.

God is inclusive, he does not require great intelligence from us in order to be saved, the message is so simple, anyone can understand it.  The problem is that it is too simple for some clever people, they like a bit of intellectual mysticism in the mix.

God found Desol through NDE's, I think they are an important source for people who have never been to church or studied the Bible.  Even though the Church is in decline in the developed world, God still finds ways to reach people.

DaveP

 

[boji]

Interesting choice of poet to underline faith / believe.

I'm glad you doubled down on desol's point, as this gives me a chance to nitpick.  ;D

I see a common rhetorical move now and again that seems to get passed as legit if it remains soft, (the hard version being the direct personal attack) that likes to undercut the 'instrument' to say the music is false. Plenty of loonies in the world who occasionally spout genius. Also goes the other way; people of repute can put forward some terrible ideas. I say gauge words for what they try to mean unless it is so confusing you need to look at the larger intents of the author.  There's no question Dickinson was a troubled soul. Would you put rocks in your coat and head out to the river to off yourself? This has nothing to do with telling a child that has just been rocked by a thunderclap that lightning can strike anywhere and without warning.

 

[boji]

I remember being around seven and trying to live a perfect day without doing anything remotely wrong, I think I made it to around 10.00 am.

This would make a good movie short. Need a good setup tho.

 

[desol]

Interesting choice of poet to underline faith / believe.

Emily Dickinson did indeed keep the form of Chanted Prayers for her poems, showing in the metre and rhyme scheme. But among the almost 1800 poems she wrote throughout her lifetime, one can hardly find a single one that fully affirms and embraces (Christian) faith. There are very few outrageously ambiguous ones, but not a single one that fully defends faith. Odd isn't it?

Most of the time there is one single twist in the length of a line, in the rhyme scheme, alongside very subtle choices of words, elipses etc etc that (indeed often hidden deep inside much like in a riddle) makes the entire thing (poem & religious belief) fall to pieces. Interestingly, Dickinson embraces and even celebrates (much like in a prayer song) this unknown and even uncanny that a world without a God, a world without the safety net of religious faith, of which she had more than an inkling, was bringing.

Dickinson was on the verge to modernism after all, and in many poems she clearly crossed that line. Maybe it also frightened her. As a matter of fact, during most of her life, she hardly ever left the house !! But I understand that to have been rather caused by the fact that the entire community she lived in consisted of firm believers and avid church goers --  and she most certainly would have been the more than 'odd one out'.

Dickinson wrote about (Christian) faith showing serious cracks. And what revealed itself beyond (like 'light'), namely a world without the affirmative nature and 'safety net' of faith -- had better to be told in a 'slant' way. -- Opposite of the interpretation above.

-----

Recommendation -- to anyone interested in Christian faith:

(1) Read the Tanakh after learning Biblical Hebrew (to get the original).
(2) Add the Apocrypha and the Kumran scrolls to you reading list (to put things into perspective).
(3) Put aside Nietzsche and re-read William James 'Varieties', cos in some experiments (different book though) he was almost a precursor to what we call neurology today). James is a true eye-opener and full of light -- puns intended.

Apart from that:

-- Can't argue taste, experience and faith. --

Peace to all.  8)

I didn't choose the poet, Boji did. I chose the message...

Also,  as I've previously mentioned, I won't be led into arguing. Everyone has their own choice.

 

[boji]

Kinda hard to explain

The more meaningful, the generally more difficult it is to articulate. Haters of this thread would do well to look at what is bothering them so much about it. We are complicated primates, full of persuasibility, confirmation bias, anthropomorphism, and pareidolia. If someone gleans a truth out of this thread and channels it into a song or song making machine, we are doing ok in my book.

 

[Matador]

Questions. Questions. Questions.

I wasn't being flippant about the question (if it came across that way).  The concept of 'hell' is fairly universal across religions, and since your imagery of hell spurned you to adopt faith, what made you select Christianity from all of the other options?

 

[boji]

what made you select Christianity from all of the other options?

Not my question to answer, I'm just glad to see you Matador.

I'd guess because his brain has been hardwired towards the western tradition. I certainly can't quit myself of it, if I remain honest.

 

[desol]

I wasn't being flippant about the question (if it came across that way).  The concept of 'hell' is fairly universal across religions, and since your imagery of hell spurned you to adopt faith, what made you select Christianity from all of the other options?

The reason that the concept of hell exists across many religions, I believe, is that every person on earth is 'inherently' aware of the nature and outcome of their choices. If you steal, you will get caught, and when you get caught you will go to jail. It's a universal concept. As the heart is hardened, it become less and less easy to discern.

My heart was extremely hardened against Christ, simply out of arrogance, but I had been examining those videos, critically, for more than 6 months, before I finally decided that they were telling the Truth.

 

[Script]

Another good (religious) poet:
Teresa of Ávila, who in poetic content (experience), is much closer to God than Emily Dickinson ever was.

Apart from that:

-- Can't argue taste, experience and faith. --

But can argue the meaning of poetry. Just felt the need to defend E. Dickinson here. Sorry if it got you started a bit. It wasn't the intent.

Peace to us all  8)

 

[alexc]

...... 
    God still finds ways to reach people
......
DaveP

You got that right!     

All men come to the Lord ..  eventually. 

And it doesn't take much  ...  often a life experience, sometimes the culmination of a life led 'well' or 'poorly'. When the blinders of daily existence fall away, for whatever reason, all that is left is the 'self' and the Lord.

I started down the path to Christ many years ago, after working for a long time in industries which don't do anything to advance the human condition ...  tech banking, defense, biotech, telecomms  etc.

My heart was sick with it, and so was my body .. I just didn't know it then. But I soon did!

My own experiences with serious illness of the most 'self obliterating' kind merely sharpened my awareness to the universal truths of the Creator. 

I credit my recovery to reasonable health, to the assistance of, in the hospital, a guardian angel - after what seemed like weeks of shut down to the external world, with only internal prayer and reflection to keep me ticking.

Of course, after I began to do bible studies. I came to realise that much of the Good Book doesn't seem understandable or applicable until the Lord moves in your heart - then the passages become very clear and present.

I also could see the light of the Lord in others around me, especially the professional care gives .. doctors, nurses and others.

Now I'm not scared of the eventual end we humans must all face ...  I know that there is a spiritual home awaiting my return.

I feel pity for those who choose to act in this world with evil intent ... I see 'karma' as the Judgement Seat. 

And I know I'm not alone.