I dont get that Kasper? You don't expect Designers to share their Mouser BOM and step by step guide, but yet you want designers to share their designs or artwork.kazper said:
You can't have your solder and heat it too
MESSAGE to Pedro -Wonderland audio Spain- and 2254 kit buyers
- Thread starter mata_haze
- Start date
Help Support GroupDIY Audio Forum:
You can't have your solder and heat it too
Ptownkid
Well-known member
Kazper hit the nail on the head...if you want step-by-step instructions and an excessive amount of documentation, expect to pay Dripesque prices. Once you have a pcb in your hand, it is truly NOT hard to figure out what components to use based on a basic BOM and a schematic.
As for people sharing the artwork, that's a catch 22...most people want to protect their investment when they offer a pcb, it takes a lot of hours and A LOT of prototyping costs in order to offer the pcb to the community at a usually relatively small margin. In a perfect world, everything would be free, but it it really so bad to buy a well made, tested pcb? Why is it so horrible that we have so many kits and offerings here now, it's not the forums JOB to teach you, it's your job to LEARN. Beyond that, almost every single kit in the whitemarket is priced either close to par or LOWER than a person can get the parts for a unit or two...so is that really a bad thing? Seems like a win-win to me. Obviously I'm biased to a degree, but I know my reasons for starting to sell kits were based on one simple premise...if I can provide a parts kit that saves time ,and usually money ,and help support my family at the same time then where's the harm?
If you are truly interested in learning and making your own from scratch, learn to read a schematic and make your own layout, simple as that.
Fact of the matter is most of the stuff available in the white market is well priced and worth every penny. Take classicapi for example, I could easily make my own 312 layout, mill it on the CNC and away I go, but Jeff makes a very reasonably priced, very high quality product so I bought 4. Not worth my time or effort to make my own boards when there's such a good option available.
As for people sharing the artwork, that's a catch 22...most people want to protect their investment when they offer a pcb, it takes a lot of hours and A LOT of prototyping costs in order to offer the pcb to the community at a usually relatively small margin. In a perfect world, everything would be free, but it it really so bad to buy a well made, tested pcb? Why is it so horrible that we have so many kits and offerings here now, it's not the forums JOB to teach you, it's your job to LEARN. Beyond that, almost every single kit in the whitemarket is priced either close to par or LOWER than a person can get the parts for a unit or two...so is that really a bad thing? Seems like a win-win to me. Obviously I'm biased to a degree, but I know my reasons for starting to sell kits were based on one simple premise...if I can provide a parts kit that saves time ,and usually money ,and help support my family at the same time then where's the harm?
If you are truly interested in learning and making your own from scratch, learn to read a schematic and make your own layout, simple as that.
Fact of the matter is most of the stuff available in the white market is well priced and worth every penny. Take classicapi for example, I could easily make my own 312 layout, mill it on the CNC and away I go, but Jeff makes a very reasonably priced, very high quality product so I bought 4. Not worth my time or effort to make my own boards when there's such a good option available.
kazper
Well-known member
canidoit said:I dont get that Kasper? You don't expect Designers to share their Mouser BOM and step by step guide, but yet you want designers to share their designs or artwork.
You can't have your solder and heat it too
Canidoit, I think the overall goal here is to learn audio electronics. As a additional surprise you get something you can use in your studio. If you want to skip the learning and use the surprise, which is basically what you portray. Your asking the designer to spend more of his time, probably at the loss of him using his DIY tools in the studio for your gain.
In regards to your post I like them because it saves me time before getting the PCB in hand or a view after I placed parts during troubleshooting.
Have you ever messed with PCB software?
It's fairly easy to publish the self etch documents it's just removal of layers and plot to a file and it's already created work. The only issue is obviously control which is really up to the designer's desecration.
I also ask you because there is some good documentation features in most of PCB layout software. Most of the schematic layouts are from the project files. But unless you spend countless hours and create complete part's for all the vendors you use you don't get a clear list past part number and values, which is typically provided with each project. Some of them do provide order numbers that work if your in the proper global area, look at Igor's BOM for the 33609 as a excellent example of a BOM from Eagle with Farnel P/N's.
I'm comfortable with the typical provided part lists around here.
Besides that, were a world marketplace. Not everyone purchases from the same spots. It's easy for me to get stuff from Mouser, Digikey, Newark but not from Farnell, Rapid, Conrad without fairly stiff shipping charges.
Why don't you create a project, and show us how well documented we should be ?
Sure I would, if I was selling kits with my name on it and I want a lesser chance of failure and complaints from buyers, I would try to get my documentation up to par.kazper said:canidoit said:I dont get that Kasper? You don't expect Designers to share their Mouser BOM and step by step guide, but yet you want designers to share their designs or artwork.
You can't have your solder and heat it too
I like them because it saves me time before getting the PCB in hand or a view after I placed parts during troubleshooting.
Have you ever messed with PCB software?
It's fairly easy to publish the self etch documents it's just removal of layers and plot to a file and it's already created work. The only issue is obviously control which is really up to the designer's desecration.
I also ask you because there is some good documentation features in most of PCB layout software. Most of the schematic layouts are from the project files. But unless you spend countless hours and create complete part's for all the vendors you use you don't get a clear list past part number and values, which is typically provided with each project. Some of them do provide order numbers that work if your in the proper global area, look at Igor's BOM for the 33609 as a excellent example of a BOM from Eagle with Farnel P/N's.
I'm comfortable with the typical provided part lists around here.
Besides that, were a world marketplace. Not everyone purchases from the same spots. It's easy for me to get stuff from Mouser, Digikey, Newark but not from Farnell, Rapid, Conrad without fairly stiff shipping charges.
Why don't you create a project, and show us how well documented we should be ?
I think you are missing my point Kasper. You want designers to share their artwork and you want to support people that complain about designers that do not share their artwork so that they can etch their own PCB. Yet these people you are supporting, wants the artwork but not to buy the PCBs and support the designers. I mean my complaint is based on a BOM and step by step instruction but I'm paying for the boards and parts. Their grievances is, I don't want to pay for your design or PCB that you have put alot of effort into it, I just want the artwork so I can skip having to learn and experience what you went through to achieve this piece of artwork.
In your eyes, it seems like the person willing to pay for the PCB and kit and asking for a BOM and documentation is bad, compared to the person who does not want to pay for anything but use the designers hard work for free?
Biasrocks
Well-known member
More to the point; if you want step-by-step directions with a 30 page pdf describing parts options, etc be prepared to pay a large premium for that. In other words, if you're not prepared to do your homework and want a paint by numbers kit handed to you on a silver plater go with Drip's projects. IMO, a 13 year old with decent soldering skills could source and put together his projects. In the age of instant gratification, I'm sure he also does just fine on the profit end.
Personally; I prefer the lower cost, dig in yourself offerings here where the creators are gracious enough to offer after sale support through the forums. It allows me to sharpen my skills; from schematic reading, circuit design and troubleshooting to wiring, metal work and cosmetics. I also get to share what I learned on the forum to help other people along with their projects.
YMMV.
With that said, there are some very high quality/well thought out projects offered here from a number of sources.
Mark
Personally; I prefer the lower cost, dig in yourself offerings here where the creators are gracious enough to offer after sale support through the forums. It allows me to sharpen my skills; from schematic reading, circuit design and troubleshooting to wiring, metal work and cosmetics. I also get to share what I learned on the forum to help other people along with their projects.
YMMV.
With that said, there are some very high quality/well thought out projects offered here from a number of sources.
Mark
kazper
Well-known member
I don't think we need to make the projects so easy a monkey could do it and a "hold your hand" and give you a "step by step" approach for free. Just enough to get the job done.
I don't necessarily need someone to provide a full fledged BOM list with suppliers across the globe for each project for free. Just the minimum needed to get the job done.
I don't think it's necessary for the designers to offer up the make your own board at home for free. Again just enough information, like the parts layout is needed to get the job done.
Whats is actually necessary for a build?
Parts location (silk screen on PCB)
Part values (Most of the tine on the PCB)
Some specific part model number
Schematic
how to calibrate the device if necessary
Whats not necessary to be spelled out for a build:
a global supplier list for every part
A illustrated manual on how to build it, where to stick it, how to stick it.
How to use a DMM, Scope, ETC to calibrate your device
Maybe the project developers should come up with a project pay for info scheme to cover the costs to create this. PCB is $50, Schematic is $10, BOM with part numbers for X ,X,X is $10, Build instructions is $25. The thing is, your asking for $$$ service at $ price.
I know your working on PP 500-84, he offered a partial kit with a few components, metal and PCB. He provided schematics, a BOM and it seems like there is quite a few of them running from that info.
I understand that we all don't learn the same way. I understand that were all at different levels. I understand that offering all the information in a nice packed document would make things a little smoother sometimes. Sometimes we need to use the pink spongy thing between our ears and figure it out ourselves.
Selling the PCB's, kits and or parts don't hold them accountable to complete your project. There selling you tangible goods that you can work into something better.
If you check your parts, carefully solder in your components, refer to schematics, 99% of the time they work first time.
I don't necessarily need someone to provide a full fledged BOM list with suppliers across the globe for each project for free. Just the minimum needed to get the job done.
I don't think it's necessary for the designers to offer up the make your own board at home for free. Again just enough information, like the parts layout is needed to get the job done.
Whats is actually necessary for a build?
Parts location (silk screen on PCB)
Part values (Most of the tine on the PCB)
Some specific part model number
Schematic
how to calibrate the device if necessary
Whats not necessary to be spelled out for a build:
a global supplier list for every part
A illustrated manual on how to build it, where to stick it, how to stick it.
How to use a DMM, Scope, ETC to calibrate your device
Maybe the project developers should come up with a project pay for info scheme to cover the costs to create this. PCB is $50, Schematic is $10, BOM with part numbers for X ,X,X is $10, Build instructions is $25. The thing is, your asking for $$$ service at $ price.
I know your working on PP 500-84, he offered a partial kit with a few components, metal and PCB. He provided schematics, a BOM and it seems like there is quite a few of them running from that info.
I understand that we all don't learn the same way. I understand that were all at different levels. I understand that offering all the information in a nice packed document would make things a little smoother sometimes. Sometimes we need to use the pink spongy thing between our ears and figure it out ourselves.
Selling the PCB's, kits and or parts don't hold them accountable to complete your project. There selling you tangible goods that you can work into something better.
If you check your parts, carefully solder in your components, refer to schematics, 99% of the time they work first time.
![[silent:arts]](https://cdn.imagearchive.com/groupdiy/data/avatars/m/0/172.jpg?1620371656){kind=avatar}
[silent:arts]
Well-known member
if anybody compiles this discussion in a new thread I will share my opinions about BOMs, schematics, KITs, etc.
even if this kind of discussions makes me feel to better disappear :-\
but this thread is for Pedro and his 2254 kit from ages ago.
even if this kind of discussions makes me feel to better disappear :-\
but this thread is for Pedro and his 2254 kit from ages ago.
okgb
Well-known member
I personaly appreciate as much info as possible , you never know what
tweaks you to an idea , or gives one some momentum ,
or what you may get stuck on ,
but doing research should accomplish much of that , continuely
averaging infomation , like saying there are no dumb questions .
A smart tech friend would tell me info is free , but if you want me to do
the work for you , that's another story
sometimes it's just a means to an end
tweaks you to an idea , or gives one some momentum ,
or what you may get stuck on ,
but doing research should accomplish much of that , continuely
averaging infomation , like saying there are no dumb questions .
A smart tech friend would tell me info is free , but if you want me to do
the work for you , that's another story
sometimes it's just a means to an end
leadbreath
Well-known member
shit man, u guys that can afford to buy ready made pcb's and documentation are well lucky. most times im stuck with a grubby schematic, some perfboard and any crappy components i can beg/borrow/ steal/ recycle....
Wonderlandaudio
Well-known member
:-\[silent:arts] said:
Ptownkid
Well-known member
leadbreath said:Sh*t man, u guys that can afford to buy ready made pcb's and documentation are well lucky. most times im stuck with a grubby schematic, some perfboard and any crappy components i can beg/borrow/ steal/ recycle....
and yet I bet you have some bitchin gear and the knowledge to build more.
Wonderlandaudio
Well-known member
It seems this has nothing to do with me any longer but.... anyway, it was too long ago but I took a look to my records and the so called kit included:
- 6 vintage green Marinair input transformers.
- 2 vintage MArinair LO1166.
- All needed switches, including Elma 03s.
- 2 Simpson edgewide meters with correct scales.
- 2 frontplates
- 2 backplates.
- 12 upper-lower plates.
- 4 side lids.
- 10 mid plates.
- 10 amphenol 18 pin sockets.
- 8 PCBs.
- Set of styroflex caps.
- Hook up wire to put it all together.
etc...
- 6 vintage green Marinair input transformers.
- 2 vintage MArinair LO1166.
- All needed switches, including Elma 03s.
- 2 Simpson edgewide meters with correct scales.
- 2 frontplates
- 2 backplates.
- 12 upper-lower plates.
- 4 side lids.
- 10 mid plates.
- 10 amphenol 18 pin sockets.
- 8 PCBs.
- Set of styroflex caps.
- Hook up wire to put it all together.
etc...
Ptownkid
Well-known member
To get back to the original point....wonderland, do you have the documentation for the wiring around still, or anyone else?
Wonderlandaudio
Well-known member
Yes , I do
Ptownkid
Well-known member
ok, can you upload the docs to the gdiy gmail account?
Mbira
Well-known member
Well I can't speak for others, but the reason I prefer to etch my own is that more often than not, I modify the artwork to fit the footprint of different size components. Of the gear I have built, my self etched boards have stood up better over time than the premade boards I have bought. I don't know if it's because I'm using thicker traces (I am generally) or if it's because the boards are fresher and solder better (they usually are).
Wanting to use artwork instead of buying a board requires more time, effort, and learning-not less.
I have also found that in general-when I put the time into etching my own board (from provided artwork-or when I create my own artwork from schematics) that I actually finish the project faster than when I buy a board and it just sits there.
P-town has already mentioned the slim margins people are working with around here. I'd actually prefer to pay someone their slim profit margin and etch my own board than to buy their board.
ruckus328
Well-known member
Well, to chime in my 2 cents here - even if I were to allow it - "etching my new SSL board yourself / modifying the gerber / increasing track size" - impossible. No way, no how - not if you want it to work that is. It wasn't designed for home etching, tolerances are too tight.
As far as providing gerbers for home etch in general. Well, let me put things in perspective here. And we'll use my new GSSL as the example. It cost over $2000 (I think anyways, it could be more than that, I'm afraid to look) in out of pocket development costs and well over 400 hours. And that's nowhere near the costs of to actually have the production run fabricated, and all of the headaches I've had to endure with that. Now, to ask me to hand over gerbers for free is somewhat insulting. If you want the projects to exist then you need to support the projects, not just mine but everyones. Maybe in a perfect world where people say they would pay for that right it would be fine, but unfortunately we don't live in that world and that's not what would happen. The second those gerbers leave my hands I have to assume that everyone and anyone will have access to them, and I get left holding the bag. I'm not rich, I have a wife and little girl on the way and we need to eat too.
What's to stop someone from handing out the file for free to everyone they know after they paid me to home etch it? - Nothing
What's to stop some guy from producing runs of boards and selling them on other sites (gearsluts, diyprojects, ebay, etc) - Nothing
And what do I get in the end? - Nothing
So like it or not, there's the real deal.
And we do really need to move this to a new thread.
As far as providing gerbers for home etch in general. Well, let me put things in perspective here. And we'll use my new GSSL as the example. It cost over $2000 (I think anyways, it could be more than that, I'm afraid to look) in out of pocket development costs and well over 400 hours. And that's nowhere near the costs of to actually have the production run fabricated, and all of the headaches I've had to endure with that. Now, to ask me to hand over gerbers for free is somewhat insulting. If you want the projects to exist then you need to support the projects, not just mine but everyones. Maybe in a perfect world where people say they would pay for that right it would be fine, but unfortunately we don't live in that world and that's not what would happen. The second those gerbers leave my hands I have to assume that everyone and anyone will have access to them, and I get left holding the bag. I'm not rich, I have a wife and little girl on the way and we need to eat too.
What's to stop someone from handing out the file for free to everyone they know after they paid me to home etch it? - Nothing
What's to stop some guy from producing runs of boards and selling them on other sites (gearsluts, diyprojects, ebay, etc) - Nothing
And what do I get in the end? - Nothing
So like it or not, there's the real deal.
And we do really need to move this to a new thread.
Mbira
Well-known member
What's to stop someone from buying "your" SSL pcb, slapping it on a scanner, importing it to photoshop and sharing the artwork?
This place has changed from the way it used to be. I'm an old fart now, and I don't care that much about most peoples clones of clones for sale here.
Bah humbug. This used to be a place where people collaboratively worked on projects and-yes-didn't really give a shit about making a profit. Bugs were discovered BEFORE you spent your $2000 on prototyping boards.
It's alright-everything changes, and it has changed here from a collaborative community to a series of business startups trying to feed their families.
This place has changed from the way it used to be. I'm an old fart now, and I don't care that much about most peoples clones of clones for sale here.
Bah humbug. This used to be a place where people collaboratively worked on projects and-yes-didn't really give a shit about making a profit. Bugs were discovered BEFORE you spent your $2000 on prototyping boards.
It's alright-everything changes, and it has changed here from a collaborative community to a series of business startups trying to feed their families.
ruckus328
Well-known member
Mbira said:
Nothing - which is why I need to try and recover the money it cost to develop it before that happens. Is there something wrong with that?
Mbira said:
So they prototype themselves?
Mbira said:
No, my dayjob pays for my family. But I can't afford to take my dayjob money and dump it into a DIY project with no chance of every recovering what it cost to do so.
mata_haze
Well-known member
Everybody,
this thread has taken a tangent: there is a lot of speculation happening on what is right and what is not.
Can any of you honestly answer to this:" who dictates what is right and what is not?"
do we need to put up a pool and hear everyones idea and opinion on the above?
shall we write a bible, a book, a whatever with precise rules to which every one HAVE TO ADHERE?
or can we just do what business man do AGREE ON SOMETHING BEFORE PROCEEDING AND HONOR IT?
here is an example:
I PERSONALLY have paid (paid means money, not apples or oranges) a gentleman for a service, the service included full parts and sull support and in that I would have been delivered a COMPLETE manual with COMPLETE step-by-step (step-by-step) guide on how to put together the 2254 "DA KIT" it was called.
I have agreed and paid for the above, which means that I have honored my side.
what I got instead is the following:
a brief explanation of what a 2254 is, few pic and the "kit".
now just to be CLEAR, I have received the above mentioned by Pedro, but also:
-2x back panels for the EDAC connector were wrong (two holes instead of one).
-1x internal panel missing
-no (very rare and difficult to find) potentiometers for the limiter response and gain (which have to be put on the back of the compressor panels)
-3x elma switches were the wrong type,so I had to buy brand new Elma dual "04" series switches £70.
-2 Edac connectors missing
-7 styroflex missing
-on the email agreement all the parts (apart from metalwork, which was second hand, but supposely the correct one to put together the kit) were BRAND NEW.now...simpson meters were NOS, thank you for this, hook up wire was brand new, thank you for this, all the ELMAS and the connectors were second hand with pieces of wire still attached. now, even though the ELMAS could work for the next 30 years no problem, well the EDAC tends to get loose and even if you could straight them up with a screw driver this is NOT what we agreed on.
-the shipping had to be done in two instances because the metal work did not get delivered the first time.and I had to pay for the second delivery as well.
minor things of course as this is a DIY forum, but (just to mention someone that has been mentioned here before) when you buy a DRIP KIT you put it together and it WORKS.
so he has honored his side and I have honored mine = BUSINESS IS FAIR.
please please please, correct me if I am wrong but if I AGREE with someone on a "service" and pay (sorry I have to repeat it because I am not sure..perhaps some of you guys can invest €1200 on a project and then laugh about it if it does not work) and then the guy disappears...(I have not seen you or heard from you in 4 years man, you DID NOT TAKE THE TIME TO REPLY TO ANY OF THE EMAILS I WROTE YOU IN THE PAST 4 YEARS) but I have the RIGHT to at least ask for what is due.
May I have the step-by-step guide please?
Kindest Regards,
Mattia.
this thread has taken a tangent: there is a lot of speculation happening on what is right and what is not.
Can any of you honestly answer to this:" who dictates what is right and what is not?"
do we need to put up a pool and hear everyones idea and opinion on the above?
shall we write a bible, a book, a whatever with precise rules to which every one HAVE TO ADHERE?
or can we just do what business man do AGREE ON SOMETHING BEFORE PROCEEDING AND HONOR IT?
here is an example:
I PERSONALLY have paid (paid means money, not apples or oranges) a gentleman for a service, the service included full parts and sull support and in that I would have been delivered a COMPLETE manual with COMPLETE step-by-step (step-by-step) guide on how to put together the 2254 "DA KIT" it was called.
I have agreed and paid for the above, which means that I have honored my side.
what I got instead is the following:
a brief explanation of what a 2254 is, few pic and the "kit".
now just to be CLEAR, I have received the above mentioned by Pedro, but also:
-2x back panels for the EDAC connector were wrong (two holes instead of one).
-1x internal panel missing
-no (very rare and difficult to find) potentiometers for the limiter response and gain (which have to be put on the back of the compressor panels)
-3x elma switches were the wrong type,so I had to buy brand new Elma dual "04" series switches £70.
-2 Edac connectors missing
-7 styroflex missing
-on the email agreement all the parts (apart from metalwork, which was second hand, but supposely the correct one to put together the kit) were BRAND NEW.now...simpson meters were NOS, thank you for this, hook up wire was brand new, thank you for this, all the ELMAS and the connectors were second hand with pieces of wire still attached. now, even though the ELMAS could work for the next 30 years no problem, well the EDAC tends to get loose and even if you could straight them up with a screw driver this is NOT what we agreed on.
-the shipping had to be done in two instances because the metal work did not get delivered the first time.and I had to pay for the second delivery as well.
minor things of course as this is a DIY forum, but (just to mention someone that has been mentioned here before) when you buy a DRIP KIT you put it together and it WORKS.
so he has honored his side and I have honored mine = BUSINESS IS FAIR.
please please please, correct me if I am wrong but if I AGREE with someone on a "service" and pay (sorry I have to repeat it because I am not sure..perhaps some of you guys can invest €1200 on a project and then laugh about it if it does not work) and then the guy disappears...(I have not seen you or heard from you in 4 years man, you DID NOT TAKE THE TIME TO REPLY TO ANY OF THE EMAILS I WROTE YOU IN THE PAST 4 YEARS) but I have the RIGHT to at least ask for what is due.
May I have the step-by-step guide please?
Kindest Regards,
Mattia.
