ioaudio
Well-known member
I also updated the first post with more pics.
Moby said:Of course, I analyzed Garantie A-52 (Sourced from Belgium gentleman) winded by you, and few more original Neumann's (not yours) lams including the early (less nickel) and later (more nickel) BV8's. Of course there is the very first "very low nickel" laminate used in the first U47 but that's another story because it's not UI30 But if you are curious, there is just a slight difference between those and 50's "low nickel" . I don't use "garantie 50,51,52" def's because it's connected just to one manufacturer of the UI30 lamination. Besides VAC U know that Krupp also made these but there is one more manufacturer in that game, actually complete manufacturing went to USSR after the 2. WW. Unfortunately they never stamped UI30's but it's still possible to buy sheets in that thickness and with same chemistry but in large quantities. They also look like VAC's (they are not black anodized) U know that yellowish shine )) MAX, again, I don't want make any confusion or to share some suspicious minds . I just share my knowledge to the people here in the community. Don't take it personally.ioaudio said:Moby,
actually the transformer i sent you in 2008 was made from original laminations Garantie a-52 made by VAC in the 70-ies.
So what you analysed was a product made by Vacuumschmelze Hanau, not my own.
Also, as far I know A52 was never used by Neumann. On the other hand I don't have any problem with it because is soooo, similar to later "H nickel" chemistry. To be precise it contains 2% less Nickel exchanged for Molybdenum because they "improved" that way earlier A51.
Just take a listen the sound examples at Cinemag site where you can compare old with new alloy directly.
Sorry I can't post the complete chemistry since it's never been published and I really don't know the consequences of making it public.
I made all the analyses to learn something or maybe to make old soft magnetics alloy available to the DIY community.
Moby said:Nope. Not even close to true chemistry. Don't try to google about it it will just mislead you . There is a lot false infos on the net regarding this types of alloys. BTW, alloys used in the first era of U47 up to 1953. is very different to later (one I tested was from 1958) Let's say that later is more complex , and of course with better permeability.BraFra said:So from what I can understand searching the net, all the three A50, A51 and A52 should have Ni 50% content and Mo content from 3.5% to 4% and Fe to balance. This will tell that the only difference in the alloy mixture is in the Mo and Fe content, but from what Max is saying the Mo content give different response in the heat annealing treatment, and from what I can understand searching the net Vacuumschmelze and Krupp had different approach in this treatment, so how is possible that Neumann used all the two supplier over the time without having to change their transformer?
Fra
Moby said:I'm afraid that chemical composition is trade secret together with annealing process. It's up to you to listen, compare and finally decide.
possible consequences with present Bv.8 replica manufacturers. There is one of them doing it close enough to original and I think he will be really pissed of if I just put that info in the ear .
Moby said:Good questions As far I know "secret" is owned by Neumann, Vac, Krupp initially, but few more small companies know about it too. I' not sure is it copyrighted but in case it is I will be quet The problem with making thiss material is not just because of knowledge. Main problem is that more modern materials are used in nowdays soft magnetic applications such as shielding etc... It's not a big deal for companies as VAC to make it again but they don't see any profit in pro audio since It's small market. On the other hand pro audio market is overloaded with different (bad,better or good enaugh) replicas of vintage transformers and I'm not sure is it there a space for new replica products.micaddict said:Moby said:I'm afraid that chemical composition is trade secret together with annealing process. It's up to you to listen, compare and finally decide.
I'm still in a mist here. Nothing wrong with secrets, but exactly who "owns" this 60-odd year old knowledge?
possible consequences with present Bv.8 replica manufacturers. There is one of them doing it close enough to original and I think he will be really pissed of if I just put that info in the ear .
This person X doing it close enough to original according to you, suggests you know at least as much as he does (more in fact). So why wouldn't you be free to share this? Surely anyone who's capable can do his own analyzing and research. But does this mean that the first one who puts something resembling the old product in the market automatically gets protection and others can no longer talk about the details? Or is there such a thing as patent re-incarnation? Or is it just a gentlemen's agreement about this among "lamination guys"?
Not trying to push you into revealing things you don't want to (and I appreciate the info we did get!). Just trying to make sense out of it. And I basically write this because it seems you're in some sort of a dilemma. You did come over to Max's thread and on the one hand you do want to share or at least help making the old materials available again.
BTW do you sell materials, or do you plan to?
The other reason I don't want to share info is because I don't want to ruine somebody buisness or to popularize any company or name. Also, It will be hijacking Max thread and hard work. I just answered on alloy chemical composition question .
Do I have a plan to produce it? Well, it's possible but we will need a serious number of guys to be interested. We can start a new thread and put the feeler about it. Also, if Max's lamination is made with exact chemistry there is no need to do that. We still have not that answer, just that it's proper dimensioned and that coils are wounded based on Neumann's blueprint. I can only judge from the picture (same as you) and it looks a bit "blacky" (black oxide) what can be the product of different annealing process. Did I miss some answer? Probably yes, but this Ipad's screen is so small for me
Enter your email address to join: