Need advice for improving isolation in miking a string bass live on stage. Jazz mostly

[Mr. Moscode]

Sandhill ribbon mics seen used a lot around here. Noticed being used for Ron Carter at Pori Jazz quite recently

Ron's technique is so strong you could record him with a 1950 carbon telephone mic and he'll still sound great.

Do you know what ribbon was on him? He uses a pickup on stage. You know the combination of a good bass and a good bassist on a good day, well you can't go wrong. One thing about RC is his consistency.

 

[MATTI]

Ron's technique is so strong you could record him with a 1950 carbon telephone mic and he'll still sound great.

Do you know what ribbon was on him? He uses a pickup on stage. You know the combination of a good bass and a good bassist on a good day, well you can't go wrong. One thing about RC is his consistency.

It was for the TV broadcast and PA

 

[Mr. Moscode]

@Mr. Moscode - If you haven't gone through it yet, toward the end of that thread there are some interesting positioning/mounting suggestions for the ATM35.

I did read that. Thank you. I'm waiting for my ATM to get here. Then the fun begins - I hope.

 

[Mr. Moscode]

It was for the TV broadcast and PA

$1500 -2500 approx. I looked it up. Maybe a used one on ebay for 50 bucks? They are apparently very good, they say.

 

[MATTI]

It was for the TV broadcast and PA

It was 2019 , so not so recently after all Found this kind of copy of the official broadcast.

 

[MATTI]

$1500 -2500 approx. I looked it up. Maybe a used one on ebay for 50 bucks? They are apparently very good, they say.

But its a ribbon mic fig. of 8, there are cheaper alternatives. I`d recommend Nohype Audio stuff

 

[MATTI]

It was 2019 , so not so recently after all Found this kind of copy of the official broadcast.

Sorry, the quality of this is awful or even worse but you see the miking

 

[Mr. Moscode]

Sorry, the quality of this is awful or even worse but you see the miking

No problem. No problem miking RC, too, outside big space between Peyton and Ron. We had them here in Northampton MA last year. Great show and band. He played my bass.

 

[johnchantler]

The sandhill mics are very good.

 

[Mr. Moscode]

Probably for the price they're a bargain.

 

[Whoops]

If you are willing to share any tricks or suggestions on how to keep the drums and piano out of the mic without blocking the view of it from the audience please share.

I tried all the tricks for double bass on stage for over the last 15 years...

There's always and always, too much drums leakage on the Double Bass microphones.
Tried all the different polar patterns, positions...

The only thing that works is throwing a Lavalier microphone inside the Double bass through the F-Hole, I've used an Omni Lavalier but also a Cardioid both work well, don't care too much about position, just throw it inside.
A good Lavalier like the DPA 4060 helps, of course it will sound better than a cheaper miniature microphone.

Adding to this I also stick an AKG C411 inside the double bass also, this is a contact condenser omni microphone but you stick it to wood like you would do on a Piezo pickup. Goes through the F-Hole also, and I stick it in the inside wood.

I use a mix between 3 recorded tracks the Lavalier, the C411 and the Pickup/DI.

The pickup/DI track might go in the mixing stage through the UAD "Woodworks" plugin which does wonders, it brings back some "Wood" sound to Piezo tracks. I might also use TC Electronics "Bodyrez" pedal. Both Woodworks and Bodyrez improve the sound captured from Piezo pickups

 

[k brown]

I tried all the tricks for double bass on stage for over the last 15 years...

There's always and always, too much drums leakage on the Double Bass microphones.
Tried all the different polar patterns, positions...

The only thing that works is throwing a Lavalier microphone inside the Double bass through the F-Hole, I've use an Omni Lavalier but also a Cardioid, don't care too much about position, just throw it inside.

Addind to this I also stick an AKG C411 inside the double bass also, this is a contact condenser omni microphone but you stick it to wood like you would do on a Piezo pickup.
I use a mix between 3 recorded tracks the Lavalier, C411 and the Pickup.

I believe the venerable old Sony ECM-50 was often used this way.

 

[k brown]

In the 'Liability Into an Asset' Dpt.:

Something I've had work well in situatiions where the drums and bass are quite close together, is to purposely use an omni on the outside of the bass, and use the considerable drum bleed to provide half the stereo picture of the drums. The other half is supplied by a 'drummer's knee' SDC omni on the side opposite the bass. Pan the bass mic center and the drummer's knee mic to the appropriate stereo side. Sometimes plus a kick mic; often not.

Not for those who like a 'close and crispy' rock-style sound on the drums.

 

[Mr. Moscode]

Just got a ATM 35

In the 'Liability Into an Asset' Dpt.:

Something I've had work well in situatiions where the drums and bass are quite close together, is to purposely use an omni on the outside of the bass, and use the considerable drum bleed to provide half the stereo picture of the drums. The other half is supplied by a 'drummer's knee' SDC omni on the side opposite the bass. Pan the bass mic center and the drummer's knee mic to the appropriate stereo side. Sometimes plus a kick mic; often not.

Not for those who like a 'close and crispy' rock-style sound on the drums.

Sorry I'm not sure what you mean by drummer's knee. Please clarify.
It's a good idea to try.

 

[k brown]

'Drummer's knee' (sometimes called 'crotch') is a way of minimally mic'ing a drum set. An omni in front of the kit, usually on the floor tom side, at approx the height of the drummer's knee. Often can give fairly good balance of the whole kit; sometimes with a kick mic added.

The Crown SASS demo CD had drum tracks recorded with just the SASS in this position, plus kick mic.

https://gearspace.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/1182345-favorite-quot-knee-quot-mic-recording-drums.html

 

[rlg06f]

Maybe I’m too long in the tooth, but a baffle behind a cardiod leads to omni response. Fig 8 with some discernment seems like the best course with natural results.

 

[k brown]

Maybe I’m too long in the tooth, but a baffle behind a cardiod leads to omni response. Fig 8 with some discernment seems like the best course with natural results.

A baffle behind a cardioid makes it more directional. Only actually sealing off the mic's rear vents makes it (a poor) omni.

The most directional conventional mic there is (excepting parabolic dishes) is a figure-8 with a baffle behind.

 

[Whoops]

A baffle behind a cardioid makes it more directional.

For sure, specially in the baffle has isolation plus abortion and also goes a bit around the sides of the mic and not only on the rear.

Only actually sealing off the mic's rear vents makes it (a poor) omni.

Yes, that's it, it's only if the back of the capsule or the rear air vents are sealed.

 

[Gavin Pursinger]

So the bass mic in front of RC's bass is NOT a CAD E-100 ???

 

[murrayatuptown]

No mention here of Headway's 'The Band'.

Headway The Band Double Bass Pickup

Strap-Around Pickup for Double Bass For a natural sound with great dynamic, Easy installation without drilling or modifications to the instrument, Warm clear sound, No disturbing bow noises, No batteries or pre-amps required, Output: 6.3 mm jack

www.thomannmusic.com

I didn't realize they made one for bass when I first saw the violin version online. I had never seen one in person, and made my own with a polymer piezo ribbon for my daughter. I used a huge ribbon so it was modestly low impedance...but the EQ was difficult for sound people. I mounted it on cotton webbing that was too thick, concerned about unknown finishes on instruments interacting with polymer or rubber like Headway uses. I eventually put a Bags Para Acoustic DI on it to make EQ easier. It's basically a contact mic, and the piezo ribbon I used would have worked on a bass...so I put that on my list of things to do someday.

It didn't pick up other instruments and there was just enough damping to prevent feedback that was ALWAYS somebody else.

Eventually I met some people who used The Band on violins, and I figured out it had three ceramic disc piezos. I don't know about their bass version.

I have made two polymer piezo versions. The first was unusable too small and Hi-Z...the 2nd was what I described above...overkill correction of the impedance problem.

I have leftover parts & some year will make one for upright/double bass.

I found the Rode violin mic holder that squeezes between the string afterlengths. It was for the Rode 4mm diameter electret lavaliere mic. I had a 6 mm Sony and carefully drilled out the Rode violin mic holder to use the Sony. It works well but for being subject to FB being an omni mic.

I have never tried a cardioid lavaliere yet. Leery of spending too little for a trash can mic or too much because what she has works very well. Side benefit is she can sing into it as a novelty...it's visually unusual.