New CK12 capsule measurements

[soliloqueen]

Are you sure the ones in the plastic containers are Ben's? Those don't look like the pedistals he uses. The other ones look more like his. I could be wrong. The last one I got from him cam in a brass tube.

He's the only person I know of that uses hex screws for his rings

 

[GeorgeToledo]

The Beesneez CK12 I have doesn’t sound too close to my real CK12 capsules. The overall sound is just pretty different and polar response seems wrong.

 

[HerbertR]

The Beesneez CK12 I have doesn’t sound too close to my real CK12 capsules. The overall sound is just pretty different and polar response seems wrong.

Maybe the original old brass capsules certainly sound different. Many people I know say the same thing when comparing Tim's to the original with too much "brightness" which is supposed to sound awesome. I know many people who defend their old investments with their lives, verbally missing out on an increase in value, it is a line of business with the intention of increasing the value. I trust my ears. I need achievable Mics. And these Beesneez capsules also offer the high level achievable on the professional market, so clearly audible.
Many antique pieces become outdated if not properly maintained and cared for. One of the most successful music producers in Austria/Europe once told me that estimated around 80 percent of these old "big one" microphones he worked were in disastrously bad condition or were simply badly crafted, also in the best studios he worked around the world. They no longer sound like the originals but were advertised as best ones. It's probably much smarter to buy a high quality replica than to pay thousands of dollars for junk. And unfortunately most people don't recognize the difference because they lack of a clear reference. My opinion and my experiences.

 

[GeorgeToledo]

Maybe the original old brass capsules certainly sound different. Many people I know say the same thing when comparing Tim's to the original with too much "brightness" which is supposed to sound awesome. I know many people who defend their old investments with their lives, verbally missing out on an increase in value, it is a line of business with the intention of increasing the value. I trust my ears. I need achievable Mics. And these Beesneez capsules also offer the high level achievable on the professional market, so clearly audible.
Many antique pieces become outdated if not properly maintained and cared for. One of the most successful music producers in Austria/Europe once told me that estimated around 80 percent of these old "big one" microphones he worked were in disastrously bad condition or were simply badly crafted, also in the best studios he worked around the world. They no longer sound like the originals but were advertised as best ones. It's probably much smarter to buy a high quality replica than to pay thousands of dollars for junk. And unfortunately most people don't recognize the difference because they lack of a clear reference. My opinion and my experiences.

The Beesneez I have just sounds strange. It doesn’t have correct high end and somehow picks up far more sound from the rear than it should. It is the opposite of too bright. Not nearly enough top end compared to a real CK12. Tim’s capsule sounds much closer to the real thing. A Haun doesn’t have as much top, but sounds good overall and has correct pattern. My position isn’t about defending paying for real CK12, but if that makes you feel better.

I bought a mic from him which was supposed to have a CK12, and it was delivered with a k67. Specced as CK12 on their site, on GS, and elsewhere. After a year of back and forth, and him blaming everyone but himself, I finally got what I paid for. Sort of. The capsule sounds odd.

He then popped up at some point to say he was going to send me a mic to make up for it. I thought that was really cool, but when I replied, I have never heard from him again.

There are a lot of stories like this from other users over the years with them. He often comes in and does so much complaining that the threads have been deleted.

I think it’s a highly unreliable company, with extremely variable output.

I am happy for anyone who paid for something from them and got what they wanted with no hassle. It looks like he may have tightened things up, I haven’t seen a customer flipping out online in probably a year or two. And if that’s the case, that’s awesome.

 

[GeorgeToledo]

Maybe the original old brass capsules certainly sound different. Many people I know say the same thing when comparing Tim's to the original with too much "brightness" which is supposed to sound awesome. I know many people who defend their old investments with their lives, verbally missing out on an increase in value, it is a line of business with the intention of increasing the value. I trust my ears. I need achievable Mics. And these Beesneez capsules also offer the high level achievable on the professional market, so clearly audible.
Many antique pieces become outdated if not properly maintained and cared for. One of the most successful music producers in Austria/Europe once told me that estimated around 80 percent of these old "big one" microphones he worked were in disastrously bad condition or were simply badly crafted, also in the best studios he worked around the world. They no longer sound like the originals but were advertised as best ones. It's probably much smarter to buy a high quality replica than to pay thousands of dollars for junk. And unfortunately most people don't recognize the difference because they lack of a clear reference. My opinion and my experiences.

I find this response and your need to insult in order to bolster your position, to be somewhat delusional.

I have bit my tongue about the Beesneez CK12s before, to spare myself this kind of response. Let’s not turn this into a big thing.

Both of our experiences with the products can be entirely true.

 

[kingkorg]

After my experience with tuning this new Chinese ck12, I would never again buy a ck12 without certified polar and frequency response graph.

Ck12 is so fiddly, and even if it works as it should in say cardioid, there's no way of knowing if it will perform properly in omni, F8, off axis....

The issue of being bright or dark is least of my worries. I can totally see why AKG gave up on these. The only capsule that gave me this much trouble was a vintage kk84 for the same reason. And this design was abandoned for the upgraded kk184.

Tim's 2017 capsule I have checks all the boxes claimed in the AKG's patent document. But yes it is bright. However I don't get the complaints regarding the voicing of his capsule, he has stated so many times he can tune the capsule any way customer likes. Also I know for a fact he measures response of his capsules. He can make both shallow, and deep dish. Just like there are many AKG Ck12, there are many variations of Tim's CK12. This is also mentioned in FOX audio research CK12 journey from many years ago as they specified what type of CK12 they wanted.

Making a CK12 without measurement setup is impossible simply because the requirements of the patent, and detailed manufacturing process stated in the blueprints. You have to measure the response in between the steps. I don't know if all mentioned manufacturers do this.

Published MBHO Ck12 graph makes me wonder if even they know what they are doing. The cardioid response shows omni behavior, which happens when you mess up chamber tuning.

To be clear, i'm not defending @Tim Campbell here. I was the first one to jump at his throat on several occasions, but from my interaction with him both here and in private I am 100% convinced he is a person who knows exactly what he's doing when it comes to CK12. I can't say that about others, simply because I haven't interacted with them.

 

[GeorgeToledo]

Dallas Upton is also making an exacting clone capsule which very much sounds like it could just be a CK12 coming off a different production line. Frequency response and polar pattern manipulation don’t seem to give surprises.

 

[kingkorg]

Here's the case against MBHO. The capsule shows in both graphs basically omni behavior throughout the FR except at very high frequencies. At first I thought they published a wrong graph, but what is the chance of doing it twice in two totally unrelated documents? AKG CK12 patent claims -20db rejection in the midrange which is true in correctly tuned CK12 capsule.

To be clear, i'm not bashing MBHO here, they never claimed their capsule is a CK12 replica.

 

[HerbertR]

I find this response and your need to insult in order to bolster your position, to be somewhat delusional.

I have bit my tongue about the Beesneez CK12s before, to spare myself this kind of response. Let’s not turn this into a big thing.

Both of our experiences with the products can be entirely true.

May everyone have their own experiences, and sharing experiences is always good. But only an objective assessment of a one-off event certainly doesn't make it accurate. And I certainly include my purchase as only a partial representative overall experience. Only one thing is certain: my! intention here is not to harm any company. And I generally avoid getting down to personal level in any discussion. If I apparently already have a "delusion" and then feel comfortable when giving a criticism, then I apparently haven't noticed it yet. It's DIY and this is about DIY. And that's a good thing because you can CERTAINLY rule out financial collateral damage by building it yourself! Peace and love, greetings Herbert

And did I say I wanted to buy a pair of Tims C12 capsules? Thank you!

 

[GeorgeToledo]

May everyone have their own experiences, and sharing experiences is always good. But only an objective assessment of a one-off event certainly doesn't make it accurate. And I certainly include my purchase as only a partial representative overall experience. Only one thing is certain: my! intention here is not to harm any company. And I generally avoid getting down to personal level in any discussion. If I apparently already have a "delusion" and then feel comfortable when giving a criticism, then I apparently haven't noticed it yet. It's DIY and this is about DIY. And that's a good thing because you can CERTAINLY rule out financial collateral damage by building it yourself! Peace and love, greetings Herbert

Sure, but the part I found arguable is that you weren’t actually sharing your experiences. You wound up with a rant about knowing someone who says a lot of vintage gear doesn’t work. Ok, not really relevant to my comment, and I found it an annoying way to attempt to undermine a buying experience I was not too happy about. Maybe delusional is too strong of a wording, but your argument is pretty hypothetical and somewhat of a non sequitor.

I agree that one experience does not make the rule.

When it comes to supposed clone stuff it can be good not to take marketing promises for granted, and to actually have some real world experience to base comparison on. If not, sure you can still wind up with some useful gear, but it can still be foolhardy to go too far out on a limb with thinking the marketing claims are valid just because you enjoy whatever it is.

 

[Recording Engineer]

Personally, in today’s world, for myself, any comparisons to anything vintage makes me want to puke. I truly don’t care even one iota. Do I like it or don’t I like it? That is all that matters to me.

I’ve 4 of Tim’s capsules, 2-more of Tim’s capsules that were highly modified by Luke Audio that they’re truly their own thing, 2 OPRs, and my only experience with Beesneez’s CK12-type was a friend’s C12-type with the typical GE 5-star 6072 and an AMI in a 460-type body. If I ever convince her to sell it to me, I’d die happy (talk about amazing bright and shiny euphoria this mic has); this after currently owning 4-dozen tubes mics, plus daily access to a couple dozen more of the studio-owner’s collection.

 

[GeorgeToledo]

To be fair, I want to add that I have heard at least two pretty good sounding “in the ballpark” Beesneez CK12 in person, which is what got me interested to start.

 

[Tim Campbell]

I must say that I am so over this discussion about how "authentic" the construction of a CK12 is. I have instead simply produced new parts that are 100% exact copies of AKG's even down to the plastic insulation cups for solder tags. As you can see from the pics I show inserting my parts into an AKG and AKG's parts inserted into mine. The brass is threaded into the plastic.



I will also add that around 2017-2018 I changed my reference capsule to one that was less bright. My capsules were only brighter for a short period because so many customers asked for brighter capsules. Today I would describe my capsule as very well balanced, matching my absolute favorite AKG CK12 capsule in my collection.

 

[GeorgeToledo]

I must say that I am so over this discussion about how "authentic" the construction of a CK12 is. I have instead simply produced new parts that are 100% exact copies of AKG's even down to the plastic insulation cups for solder tags. As you can see from the pics I show inserting my parts into an AKG and AKG's parts inserted into mine. The brass is threaded into the plastic.

View attachment 115064View attachment 115065View attachment 115066

I will also add that around 2017-2018 I changed my reference capsule to one that was less bright. My capsules were only brighter for a short period because so many customers asked for brighter capsules. Today I would describe my capsule as very well balanced, matching my absolute favorite AKG CK12 capsule in my collection.

I know when you told me about this you said it was something you’d been planning, but I hope I am a little responsible for pushing you to do that.

Congratulations on it!!!

 

[Marik]

Personally, in today’s world, for myself, any comparisons to anything vintage makes me want to puke. I truly don’t care even one iota. Do I like it or don’t I like it? That is all that matters to me.

Thank you for this sentiment! I never understood why people want yet another U87, U47, or 251 clone, or 'inspired by' jobbie. There are so many ways of moving forward, esp. with modern materials, technology, acoustics... Yet, it seems the community is so conservative and stuck, rather than turning on at least a little bit of imagination to get out the 'vintage boundaries'.

Best, M

 

[kingkorg]

Thank you for this sentiment! I never understood why people want yet another U87, U47, or 251 clone, or 'inspired by' jobbie. There are so many ways of moving forward, esp. with modern materials, technology, acoustics... Yet, it seems the community is so conservative and stuck, rather than turning on at least a little bit of imagination to get out the 'vintage boundaries'.

Best, M

Marketing, hype, YouTube and on first place insecurity and confirmation bias.

 

[GeorgeToledo]

I really enjoy some mics that aren’t based on old sixties mics; Milab quickly comes to mind.

But if the goal is to replicate something, a comparison is pretty valid.

Here’s a comparison. There are so many guitars you can argue are better than an original Fender Stratocaster in some way, even newer versions of Stratocaster, but there is no clear consensus concerning various improvements. The immutable truth is that many renowned recordings were done with them. Was the Lace Sensor strat better or worse? Is the two pivot point Strat bridge better or worse? Is a Yamaha Pacifica or Ibanez JEM better or worse? No consensus.

It is the same for mics.

A million options can be the death of the creative process. The entire act of bringing an idea to the finish line, is the winnowing away of endless options. That draws people towards known quantities.

At the time much of the “classic gear” was invented, in many cases there were much greater resources put into it than goes into product development in this industry today.

Some of the best newer microphone related products are made by the people with the most humility regarding how theirs compares to the “classics”.

 

[Marik]

A million options can be the death of the creative process.

To me it looks like out of this million of options on the market 99.9% are clones, which have nothing to do with originals--not schematically, nor sonically, and which came from the same same Chinese factory... just rebranded, with some marketing BS hype... So what did we do?

Best, M

 

[kingkorg]

I really enjoy some mics that aren’t based on old sixties mics; Milab quickly comes to mind.

But if the goal is to replicate something, a comparison is pretty valid.

Here’s a comparison. There are so many guitars you can argue are better than an original Fender Stratocaster in some way, even newer versions of Stratocaster, but there is no clear consensus concerning various improvements. The immutable truth is that many renowned recordings were done with them. Was the Lace Sensor strat better or worse? Is the two pivot point Strat bridge better or worse? Is a Yamaha Pacifica or Ibanez JEM better or worse? No consensus.

It is the same for mics.

A million options can be the death of the creative process. The entire act of bringing an idea to the finish line, is the winnowing away of endless options. That draws people towards known quantities.

At the time much of the “classic gear” was invented, in many cases there were much greater resources put into it than goes into product development in this industry today.

Some of the best newer microphone related products are made by the people with the most humility regarding how theirs compares to the “classics”.

In my 15 years of pro studio and live work with top notch, but also low end performers, the better musician the less fuss about gear used.

Two of my favorite studio cat monsters played regularly on 100$ player grade guitars they picked up at random places, but felt confident about the choice as they had no doubts about what they expect from an instrument. Kind of EVH frankenstrat story.

Tiny bit different story on singers, as i'm not sure I've ever met a truly confident singer.

 

[GeorgeToledo]

To me it looks like out of this million of options on the market 99.9% are clones, which have nothing to do with originals--not schematically, nor sonically, and which came from the same same Chinese factory... just rebranded, with some marketing BS hype... So what did we do?

Best, M

I agree with your sentiment.

I have a mental block on even considering a lot of that stuff to constitute a “clone”, though I guess it’s true that people call them that.

I was thinking of stuff that is at least up the rung of, “what if the original manufacturer setup a new production line now”. Actual same designs, and as little deviation as is possible.

It’s not exactly black and white either.