Sunset sound

[cyrano]

I've worked with homeless people, years ago. Not in a therapeutic way, just helping the cook prepare food for them in a community center. And talking to them. Hearing their stories.

Most here will be saved by social services. It doesn't matter if they do drugs. Besides, the usual problem here is alcohol. Cheap tins of beer, porto or vodka, resulting in Korsakov's syndrome after years.

There's a small minority that doesn't get help, because they simply don't want it. A few of them have psychiatric problems. As long as they aren't aggressive, they'll drop out of any help program. The aggressive ones get picked up by police but end up on the street time and time again. There's no real solution for them.

Most are just people like you and me. They've gone through some personal drama and were mentally destroyed. Debt, the loss of a spouse or child... Sometimes it doesn't take much to break a person. The start of recovery is getting them one person that cares enough to help them get into social services. And a few lawyers to help with legal problems. Like outstanding fines they don't know about because they have no address. All of that can be solved if you can find them the one person that cares...

A friend of mine still distributes food that has expired. It's one or two shopping carts a day he delivers to the poor and the homeless in his neighbourhood. That has made a tremendous difference. And even the supermarket's boss is glad. He understands hunger. He's Lebanese. And he no longer has to pay to destroy the food. My friend is a tall, strong guy. Used to be a plasterer. Had seven people working for him. Suffers from ADHD. One day it went sour for him because of a tax audit. He was homeless for a short while. But he cares...

 

[CJ]

I had a friend who use to steal a case of beer every day from the 7/11. Just walk right out with it right in front of the cashier. He would give the guy such a mean and dirty look that he didn't dare try to intercede. Then off to his nest in the blackberry bushes to struggle through another day.

Nothing is worse than losing all hope. It is worse than death. The only peace you get is sleep, unless it includes nightmares. Wishing you don't wake up is a bad place to be.

 

[living sounds]

It seem that with AI you’ll see white collar jobs that can be programmed disappear also.

https://www.theguardian.com/technol...0m-studio-expansion-after-being-shocked-by-ai

I know people with kids who finished school with no idea what to do in terms of higher education because of the massive uncertainty caused by distruptive future (or already present) technology.

On the other hand I've spoken to a lot of people who are fed up with their white collar jobs and all the paperwork, regulations and ultimate uselessness and are considering a craft now.

We could be on the cusp of a resurgence of more practical work. Plummers may be much safer than clerks. Even if AI glasses tell people exactly what to do, they often would not want or dare to do it themselves.

 

[AnalogPackrat]

people are not homeless because they do drugs,
people do drugs because they are homeless,

They've given up on themselves. Not sure how government can "fix" that kind of problem. Hope, drive, willpower, tenaciousness, determination are internal and personal. Close friends and family can help instill or revive them, but I don't expect any gray government bureaucracy can do so.

what are you going to do, hold up a street lamp 24/7 and be bored out of your mind?

Self-determination is a thing. Books are practically free these days. Reading as an escape is far better than destroying your mind with alcohol or drugs.

try hanging out in the street for a few weeks, it gets old quick. especially in the winter time. homeless people don't sleep in shelters because they have a problem with the rules, like no drugs. and it is not easy to sleep with a bunch of nut jobs around you talking all night on a lice infested mattress,

I guess I have a hard time understanding the lack of motivation to do something to 1) improve my situation and 2) not be a burden on others. It's how I was raised, but that kind of mentality seems a lot less common of late.

we shipped all the blue collar jobs to china and raised rents at the same time,

Having worked in that world from the mid 80s (summer internships), the 90s (first jobs out of school), through the run up to the dotcom boom and bust, the slow recovery then the 2008-9 crash and even slower recovery I have seen a lot of change. NAFTA did as much damage to US blue-collar and lower level white collar jobs as China did in the 90s.

My employers in the 90s and on were happily offshoring engineering, software, QA, and tech manufacturing jobs to India, Korea, and China all of this time. It wasn't just blue-collar work that left the US.

so more and more people are falling through the cracks,

Yep. But you can reduce your risk by living within your means and not taking on unnecessary debt. Another "lost art" that previous generations grokked.

once your down, that's where you stay, especially in this tech oriented, white collar world.

Not buying it. That's a self-defeating attitude.

you have to go $30,000 dollars in debt to citibank to get a degree these days, i went to UC davis for $212.50 a quarter back in the seventies. maybe if getting a college education was affordable we would have less of a problem.

I agree. Cost of college is now ridiculous. Why? Rapid growth of unnecessary administration and the Club Med remakes of campuses. I went to a good state A&M school. Tuition was $780 a semester in '84. Spartan dorm accomodations were $485/semester. Basic institutional 5-day meal plan was $515/semester. Same school is now 8-10x the cost.

also, people are more selfish nowadays, parents would rather kick their problem child to the streets rather than tolerate their behavior. somewhere out there are the parents of all these homeless people, but maybe the parents are bad actors also so the kids wanna leave. so, be a good parent. that would get some people off the street.

Poor parenting may be part of the root cause.

people who earn a pay check helping the homeless don't want to help the homeless, because if they did, they wouldn't have a pay check. more homeless = more government money =more job security,

Which is a big part of why government bureaucracy is a bad solution. Here in the Bible Belt we have a lot of church-run programs. Just down the road from me is a good-sized rehab outfit that is funded by a religious group. They run two second hand shops and a little cafe to fund it. I've donated a bunch of stuff to their shops.

i see no solution, population goes up, rent goes up do to constricted real estate,

The alternatives are not good. Things are a lot better outside of the high-rent tech and city centers. For now.

the problem is starting to haunt the affluent, homeless people in their neighborhoods, doing what they do, the problem is getting harder and harder to hide.

In many places it's what the wealthy elite voted for, but they can't admit their own culpability.

if i work late, i trip over bodies as i leave the shop, they sleep on main street in the business alcoves. curt cobain used to sleep in front of our shop. this hurts small business because nobody wants to go downtown.

Vicious cycle.

business owners complain to the police but the police chief's attitude is "their human beings too, you know, " they don't have this problem in mt view, ca, all that money means extra security, a homeless person hanging out on the street is gone in ten minutes after some soulless techie gets on their cell phone while driving to google in their bmw,

Plenty of homeless in the Bay Area including nice (or formerly nice) areas like Almaden Valley, Campbell, Sunnyvale...

me, i have no problem, every time i need some extra cash to make ends meet i just boost a generator from home repo

LOL

 

[AnalogPackrat]

https://www.theguardian.com/technol...0m-studio-expansion-after-being-shocked-by-ai

I know people with kids who finished school with no idea what to do in terms of higher education because of the massive uncertainty caused by distruptive future (or already present) technology.

This has been going on for a couple of decades as SW jobs were shipped to India, Korea, China, etc. The job losses may accelerate, but it looks like AI generated code is not that great, especially when it comes to larger systems.

On the other hand I've spoken to a lot of people who are fed up with their white collar jobs and all the paperwork, regulations and ultimate uselessness and are considering a craft now.

Also not new. Look at what Mike Rowe's been up to for some time. And read Shop Class as Soulcraft: An Inquiry Into the Value of Work by Matthew Crawford 2009, for example. The general contractor that worked on a major addition/remodel of my house c.2003-04 was a Geology major. He was an excellent finish carpenter with an innate aesthetic sense. I spoke to him at length about how he ended up doing carpentry after college and made a career of it.

We could be on the cusp of a resurgence of more practical work. Plummers may be much safer than clerks. Even if AI glasses tell people exactly what to do, they often would not want or dare to do it themselves.

Again, not new. When I was in high school my school district still had a vocational track with extensive facilities for teaching everything from office work to carpentry, machining, auto repair, welding, etc. to students who weren't going to college or a tech school. A guy I used to ride the bus with who was 3-4 years older took welding classes and got a good paying job at age 18. Many now are afraid of physical labor or look down on it and the people who do it. Pure ignorance.

 

[scott2000]

also, people are more selfish nowadays, parents would rather kick their problem child to the streets rather than tolerate their behavior.

I kinda like living like the Waltons... but feel bad for my son. He just lost his best friend to a fentanyl overdose last weekend. The weekend prior, my wife's best friend lost her grandkid and his best friend the same way... Scary out there.. People renting bedrooms for $1500 is the going rate here....3000 rent for a home...

Was talking with my dad about how now you have to get a new roof every 15 years, some say 10, propery taxes are climbing.... ac systems running 10 large... It's almost a curse to give someone a home these days...
House I grew up in was $20k I think he said....and he was making really decent money at the post office... No wonder my mom stayed home....

 

[AnalogPackrat]

I kinda like living like the Waltons... but feel bad for my son. He just lost his best friend to a fentanyl overdose last weekend. The weekend prior, my wife's best friend lost her grandkid and his best friend the same way... Scary out there..

That's some awful stuff. It's far too easy for it to get in across the southern border.

People renting bedrooms for $1500 is the going rate here....3000 rent for a home...

$3100 gets you a 4br/3ba brick two storey house with a garage on a nice lot around here. Small apartments start at $500-700 and small houses $900 and up. A solid 3br/2ba starter home can be bought for 200-250k. Prices are up 50% from just a few years ago as more people migrate in from failed states (NY, NJ, MI, etc.).

Was talking with my dad about how now you have to get a new roof every 15 years, some say 10,

If you buy the cheapest "20 yr" shingles you might have trouble in 15 years if installation was poorly done or there was hail damage. I put 35 year heavy shingles with wind nailing (5 nails per shingle) on my CA house in 2002. Still had at least 10 years of life left when we sold it in 2022. And we had lots of bad wind and rain in those 20 years. My current house has cheap shingles that are 20 years old this year. Will be replacing.

propery taxes are climbing....

Your vote matters.

ac systems running 10 large...

Government mandated efficiency changes and another refrigerant change require redesign and more complex systems. Guess who pays?

It's almost a curse to give someone a home these days...

It isn't for everyone. If you aren't willing to keep up with maintenence (either DIY or hiring pros) then rent. TANSTAAFL.

House I grew up in was $20k I think he said....and he was making really decent money at the post office... No wonder my mom stayed home....

Note home sizes and amenities now compared to the 50s, 60s, 70s. My parents' first house was $14k in 1968. 1200 sq ft 3br/2ba with a small one car garage. One window-mounted AC and electric heating system. No washer or dryer. They bought a washer later. Clothesline in the backyard for drying.

 

[scott2000]

That's some awful stuff. It's far too easy for it to get in across the southern border.

Yeah it's a real nightmare. Not sure what to make of it. Almost feels intentional tbh...Kids are out there with test kits now I hear so at least they're adapting.... however messed up that sounds

$3100 gets you a 4br/3ba brick two storey house with a garage on a nice lot around here.

Yeah...People shouldn't come here..lol

If you buy the cheapest "20 yr" shingles you might have trouble in 15 years if installation was poorly done or there was hail damage.

New homeowners insurance practices is what I was referring to... We are 18 years into our 25 year shingles with zero issues and we're being dropped this year if we don't get a new one..Roofer tells me they are going to require every 15 years regardless. I think you can't get a new policy if older than 10....etc....I haven't studied the new stuff but have been hearing it sucks...

Government mandated efficiency changes and another refrigerant change require redesign and more complex systems. Guess who pays?

doesn't help that these new guys only know how to install new systems and change a cap or recharge... I'm still going even after several saying I needed a new system thanks to my old neighbor who isn't afraid to sweat copper.... Maybe not as efficient but some knowledge about how power usage works really helped me more financially than I think the ignorance of thinking a 10k system would on it's own..

It isn't for everyone. If you aren't willing to keep up with maintenence (either DIY or hiring pros) then rent. TANSTAAFL.

Yeah... Thinking about doing my own roof tbh.. Not sure if time has run out on my body's ability to recover but I've watched enough videos and could do better than what we have and I have seen being installed recently... I like heights and have safety gear..Who knows...Not even sure insurance accepts that even though it's permitted and inspected...Need to find out...
But still, just our HOA is 6k a year (I know..move..).... insurance and taxes another 5k/a year...20k every 15 for a roof...another 10k every 15 for ac...another 5k every 6 years for paint.......idk...I don't remember it being this bad...Even painting seemed to be a once every 20 year thing...now the stuff just washes off after 5.. But there are some decent products but they cost quite a bit....

One window-mounted AC and electric heating system. No washer or dryer. They bought a washer later. Clothesline in the backyard for drying.

My parents had the only window shaker in their room..lol
We had the box fans in the windows...Think we got central ac when I was 11 or 12.... ditto on the clothes line..... nothing like a stiff towel after a shower...Like getting a chamois ready to dry..lol

 

[AnalogPackrat]

Yeah it's a real nightmare. Not sure what to make of it. Almost feels intentional tbh...Kids are out there with test kits now I hear so at least they're adapting.... however messed up that sounds

That is messed up.

Yeah...People shouldn't come here..lol

I'd prefer a slower flow rate here as well.

New homeowners insurance practices is what I was referring to... We are 18 years into our 25 year shingles with zero issues and we're being dropped this year if we don't get a new one..Roofer tells me they are going to require every 15 years regardless. I think you can't get a new policy if older than 10....etc....I haven't studied the new stuff but have been hearing it sucks...

I've heard of some similar insurer demands here (tree removal near house, etc.), but not roofing age.

doesn't help that these new guys only know how to install new systems and change a cap or recharge... I'm still going even after several saying I needed a new system thanks to my old neighbor who isn't afraid to sweat copper.... Maybe not as efficient but some knowledge about how power usage works really helped me more financially than I think the ignorance of thinking a 10k system would on it's own..

I had two 19yo systems here when we moved. One developed a leak in the outdoor compressor assembly. Found a local outfit with competent techs who patched it up. Ended up replacing it with a mini-split the next year. It can be hard to find quality pros.

Another factor in declining appliance lifetime is the dominance of MBA-thinking in the past 20-30 years. Engineers want to build a quality product (with sane tradeoffs) and MBAs want to minimize cost and are clueless about repair/maintenance. Then you've got consumers who think it's a good idea to have a TV, wifi connection, and cameras in/on their refrigerator...

Yeah... Thinking about doing my own roof tbh.. Not sure if time has run out on my body's ability to recover but I've watched enough videos and could do better than what we have and I have seen being installed recently... I like heights and have safety gear..Who knows...Not even sure insurance accepts that even though it's permitted and inspected...Need to find out...

I was talking more about simpler DIY like painting, plumbin/electrical fixture repair & replacement, flooring, landscaping, etc.

But still, just our HOA is 6k a year (I know..move..)....

I will always avoid HOAs.

insurance and taxes another 5k/a year...

Similar here.

20k every 15 for a roof...

I'm planning on 30+ years (probably my last roof).

another 10k every 15 for ac...

Maybe more since the new refrigerant may not be compatible with current line sets.

another 5k every 6 years for paint.......idk...I don't remember it being this bad...Even painting seemed to be a once every 20 year thing...

When we remodeled our CA house we put in fiberglass framed windows and Hardieplank siding. Exterior painted in 2003 with Benjamin Moore and again in 2021 prior to selling. New paint sucks. More gov regulations to reduce VOCs, but as a result you have to 1) paint 2-3 times as frequently and 2) buy all new paint because it no longer keeps in the can. Net effect is more material used.

now the stuff just washes off after 5.. But there are some decent products but they cost quite a bit....

Even the good brands suck.

My parents had the only window shaker in their room..lol
We had the box fans in the windows...Think we got central ac when I was 11 or 12.... ditto on the clothes line..... nothing like a stiff towel after a shower...Like getting a chamois ready to dry..lol

Oh yeah. And jeans that you could stand up against the wall. Good times.

 

[living sounds]

One reason for the problem of widespread immiseration and as a consequence homelessness is the degressive system of taxation. In 44 of 50 States the wealthy pay a lesser share of their income in taxes than lower income people.

https://itep.org/whopays-7th-edition/

This doesn't even include unrealized gains in assests, which the truly wealthy use to borrow money against indefinitely without triggering a taxeable event.

 

[living sounds]

And it should surprise noone that the poor flock to States that have a less degressive system.

Nevertheless, arguments to that point are made all the time. My libertarian friends always ask why we can't be more like Switzerland... well, we can't all be tax havens...

 

[john12ax7]

Nevertheless, arguments to that point are made all the time. My libertarian friends always ask why we can't be more like Switzerland... well, we can't all be tax havens...

It doesn't need to be either / or, one can be for both lower taxes and a less degressive system. The US system overall is so messed up. The higher you go, the easier your job , the less taxes you pay.

The city of LA underwent a huge shift during the pandemic. The amount of homeless exploded. It's not a coincidence that rents also exploded during that time. It's like in the movies when a giant crack goes through the earth. If you were on the good side you are doing well now, even thriving. If on the other side it is very difficult to get back.

 

[boji]

HCV programs are sociologically perplexing. Owners attempt to make the neighborhood amenable to living, while temporary occupants tend to (mis)treat the environment as abstract govt. property. Adversarial relationships between renters and management are sustained by longer-term occupants.

 

[AnalogPackrat]

One reason for the problem of widespread immiseration and as a consequence homelessness is the degressive system of taxation. In 44 of 50 States the wealthy pay a lesser share of their income in taxes than lower income people.

Why should anyone pay a higher percentage than others? I'm all for a flat income tax and only very minimal and simple deductions for things like education, medical expenses, etc. Then everyone has some skin in the game unlike now where 10% of us pay 75% of all Federal income taxes collected and half of us pay almost nothing (many do pay zero).

https://www.ntu.org/foundation/tax-page/who-pays-income-taxes

And, yes, here in the US different states have different tax mechanisms. Some collect no income tax, but have higher sales tax or property tax or gas tax. Some have a mix. And others tax the shit out of everything (California, I'm looking at you).

CA (the great progressive leader) had 9-11% sales tax and the highest gas tax in the US. My current state of residence (where I was born) had 4.5% sales tax in 1992 but now has 6%. Our gas tax is about 1/3 of the CA rate. Who's hurting the poor more?

https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/state/state-gas-tax-rates-2023/

https://www.tax-rates.org/taxtables/sales-tax-by-state

https://itep.org/whopays-7th-edition/

According to this, the top 1% are taxed at an average of over 26% on income while the bottom 50% pay an average 3.1% income tax rate.

https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/federal/summary-latest-federal-income-tax-data-2023-update/

This doesn't even include unrealized gains in assests, which the truly wealthy use to borrow money against indefinitely without triggering a taxeable event.

Because taxing unrealized gains is ridiculous. Are you going to be fair and also tax unrealized losses? At what point(s) in time will the relative gain/loss be measured? Do you understand anything about long term investing? How much more bureaucratic overhead will be needed to track all of that? IMO, our current overly-complicated tax system is already a waste of resources, both government (in the form of IRS employment) and private (in the form of CPAs and tax preparers for citizens and small business owners).

 

[JohnRoberts]

Yet the government is still borrowing excessively so they can keep spending like drunk sailors.

JR

 

[cyrano]

And it should surprise noone that the poor flock to States that have a less degressive system.

Nevertheless, arguments to that point are made all the time. My libertarian friends always ask why we can't be more like Switzerland... well, we can't all be tax havens...

Being a tax haven isn't the only reason the Swiss are doing so well. They also have a base democracy. Even their army is different...

 

[JohnRoberts]

Being a tax haven isn't the only reason the Swiss are doing so well. They also have a base democracy. Even their army is different...

Switzerland has multiple unique aspects, avoid looking for simple answers.

JR

 

[living sounds]

Why should anyone pay a higher percentage than others? I'm all for a flat income tax and only very minimal and simple deductions for things like education, medical expenses, etc. Then everyone has some skin in the game unlike now where 10% of us pay 75% of all Federal income taxes collected and half of us pay almost nothing (many do pay zero).

https://www.ntu.org/foundation/tax-page/who-pays-income-taxes

And, yes, here in the US different states have different tax mechanisms. Some collect no income tax, but have higher sales tax or property tax or gas tax. Some have a mix. And others tax the shit out of everything (California, I'm looking at you).

CA (the great progressive leader) had 9-11% sales tax and the highest gas tax in the US. My current state of residence (where I was born) had 4.5% sales tax in 1992 but now has 6%. Our gas tax is about 1/3 of the CA rate. Who's hurting the poor more?

https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/state/state-gas-tax-rates-2023/

https://www.tax-rates.org/taxtables/sales-tax-by-state




According to this, the top 1% are taxed at an average of over 26% on income while the bottom 50% pay an average 3.1% income tax rate.

https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/federal/summary-latest-federal-income-tax-data-2023-update/

The study I linked shows the total tax burden. Poor people need to spend most or even all of their income, so they pay a much higher percentage of their income in taxes.

Look at the entire picture.
https://itep.org/whopays-7th-edition/

Because taxing unrealized gains is ridiculous. Are you going to be fair and also tax unrealized losses? At what point(s) in time will the relative gain/loss be measured? Do you understand anything about long term investing? How much more bureaucratic overhead will be needed to track all of that? IMO, our current overly-complicated tax system is already a waste of resources, both government (in the form of IRS employment) and private (in the form of CPAs and tax preparers for citizens and small business owners).

I understand that problem very well, thank you. Unrealized losses are not a problem for billionaire shareholders, they can afford the best consultants and weather even big financial storms. Is it fair that they hardly pay any taxes on their gains, as opposed to normal (poorer) investors who don't have the luxery to do it like this?

Make their case at your own peril.

 

[JohnRoberts]

The class warfare is strong in this one....

JR

 

[AnalogPackrat]

The study I linked shows the total tax burden. Poor people need to spend most or even all of their income, so they pay a much higher percentage of their income in taxes.

Look at the entire picture.
https://itep.org/whopays-7th-edition/

I can read and am very familiar with the numbers. I note you failed to address the issue of sales tax, gas tax, and other consumption taxes which burden the lower income people disproportionately.

I also see you haven't said boo about people on the dole for life. Social safety nets should be short term mechanisms, not a lifestyle. How much of the taxes collected go to these programs? Over 30% (and that is excluding Social Security, which if properly managed should be mostly self-funded).

Typical leftist view which is to take more money from the hard-working people, launder it through a giant inefficient bureaucracy or three, and then give it away like candy. Better to reduce spending and waste so that everyone's tax burden can be lowered.

I understand that problem very well, thank you. Unrealized losses are not a problem for billionaire shareholders, they can afford the best consultants and weather even big financial storms. Is it fair that they hardly pay any taxes on their gains, as opposed to normal (poorer) investors who don't have the luxery to do it like this?

Make their case at your own peril.

LOL. You are clueless. Do you think only billionaires here are going to be paying for unrealized gains (and just taking the L "for the good of society" or somesuch bs)? Next you'll reveal that you want unrealized gains on real estate or other personal property to be taxed. Oh, and let's eliminate the IRA and 401(k) tax shelters, too, right? Wouldn't want to encourage people to save, plan ahead, and be financially independent in retirement.